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"Objective" Evidence

That which is real is real and someone's belief about it is irrelevant as to its actual existence.

That is something you believe.

Not something you could ever demonstrate.

That is something you believe.
Not something you could ever demonstrate.

Must have PhD in "Insipid Studies"

You are a third rater above your head.

You have nothing to offer but the insults of a child.

Having some emotional problem?

All you have are your subjective experiences. You cannot talk about anything else. You cannot prove anything exists beyond them. You can only assume things exist beyond them.

What would you use to prove the table was there beyond some subjective experience?
 
That which is real is real and someone's belief about it is irrelevant as to its actual existence.

That is something you believe.

Not something you could ever demonstrate.

All you have access to are experiences.

This thing you call "real" is only a belief about the experiences.
Sorry but I just realized that this is a waste of time unless you recognize that I actually exist. It isn't worth the effort if you really believe that I am only a figment of your imagination. Besides, I would feel a bit guilty contributing to your delusions.
 
That which is real is real and someone's belief about it is irrelevant as to its actual existence.

That is something you believe.

Not something you could ever demonstrate.

All you have access to are experiences.

This thing you call "real" is only a belief about the experiences.
Sorry but I just realized that this is a waste of time unless you recognize that I actually exist. It isn't worth the effort if you really believe that I am only a figment of your imagination.

I only have to believe you exist as I exist to have an exchange of ideas.

That requires looking at ideas.

You have your experiences, nothing else.

What you call "reality" is a judgement you make about certain experiences.
 
I believe from experience, which is all I have and you too, the brain is generating the mind.

You have experienced a brain generating a mind? But “you” are a mind and a “mind” is that which experiences and “experience” is what brains create as “presentations” for the “mind” to “experience.” So now you’re saying that your brain created a “meta meta meta mind” device?
 
I believe from experience, which is all I have and you too, the brain is generating the mind.

You have experienced a brain generating a mind?

No.

I have experiences other than that though.

And the sum total of my experiences is what I use to form my opinions.

That this seems like news to you is amazing.

It is exactly how you formed all your opinions. Through a mental examination of your experiences.

You have nothing but your subjective experiences and what you subjectively make of them.

You have nothing else and can name nothing else.
 
It is exactly how you formed all your opinions.

I am your brain. I don’t form opinions, only the “mind” device forms opinions.

Through a mental examination of your experiences.

So through the “meta meta mind” device. The “mind” device is “that which experiences,” not “that which examines the mind’s experiences.” The “meta mind” device is “that which knows the mind is experiencing” and the “meta meta mind” device is “that which can examine what the mind experiences.”

These are all separeate things.
 
I don’t form opinions

Never?

The “mind” device is “that which experiences,” not “that which examines the mind’s experiences.”

It experiences all things. And it can examine what it experiences.

The active part of the mind is called the "will". I did not invent the concept.

You used your will to write the things you wrote and to form the ideas you formed.

Even if you are oblivious to it.
 
You may not have invented 'will' but you attribute many attributes to whatever it is. So what is will exactly? Is there a will that asserts some clocks will always remain indicting the same time? Would such be any different from nothing at all deciding or being the point of what follows?
 
You may not have invented 'will' but you attribute many attributes to whatever it is. So what is will exactly? Is there a will that asserts some clocks will always remain indicting the same time? Would such be any different from nothing at all deciding or being the point of what follows?

What you know of clocks are your subjective experiences of them. Nothing more.

If you have the subjective experience of a person telling you they experience the same time as you what do you have beyond your subjective experiences?

You can call it something but it is just your subjective experiences.

You have nothing else beyond your subjective experiences and what you subjectively make of them.
 
That is something you believe.
Not something you could ever demonstrate.

Must have PhD in "Insipid Studies"

You are a third rater above your head.

You have nothing to offer but the insults of a child.

Having some emotional problem?

All you have are your subjective experiences. You cannot talk about anything else. You cannot prove anything exists beyond them. You can only assume things exist beyond them.

What would you use to prove the table was there beyond some subjective experience?

If tou can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.
 
That is a collection of subjective experiences.

You can choose to call it something else if you like.

Your mind can freely do things like that.

I think that you deliberately miss the point. A brick wall is a barrier you cannot walk through regardless of what your 'mind' tells you or what you happen to believe.

Why? well, because it is an objective barrier.

Shouldn't that be easy enough to understand?
 
That is a collection of subjective experiences.

You can choose to call it something else if you like.

Your mind can freely do things like that.

I think that you deliberately miss the point. A brick wall is a barrier you cannot walk through regardless of what your 'mind' tells you or what you happen to believe.

Why? well, because it is an objective barrier.

Shouldn't that be easy enough to understand?

You have the subjective experience of not being able to push into something.

You experience the sensations of pressure and muscles contracting and the lack of sensation of movement.

It is all a subjective experience. Nothing more.

That is all any human has, their subjective experiences and what they subjectively make of them.

We are all alone and can only experience. We cannot know. We have to assume the external world is there. We cannot experience it. What we experience is not the external world. We experience representations of the external world that are colored.
 
That is something you believe.
Not something you could ever demonstrate.

Must have PhD in "Insipid Studies"

You are a third rater above your head.

You have nothing to offer but the insults of a child.

Having some emotional problem?

All you have are your subjective experiences. You cannot talk about anything else. You cannot prove anything exists beyond them. You can only assume things exist beyond them.

What would you use to prove the table was there beyond some subjective experience?

If tou can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

I can take the heat.

When I dish it out like this people cry a lot.

I don't like to make people cry.

Are you also one of the deluded that thinks they have access to anything beyond your subjective experiences?
 

I am brain. I cannot form opinions. Only “that which can form opinions” can form opinions.

The “mind” device is “that which experiences,” not “that which examines the mind’s experiences.”

It experiences all things.

All things that brain presents to it.

And it can examine what it experiences.

So it is both “that which can experience” AND that which can “examine what it can experience”? But it’s not “that which knows it is experiencing” also, as that would mean it’s a thing capable of experiencing itself and as you have declared by fiat and not cogent argumentation there can never be a thing that can experience itself.

The active part of the mind is called the "will". I did not invent the concept.

Nor understand it.

So there is a “mind” device and now there is a “will” device. And there is a “meta mind,” “meta meta mind” and “meta meta meta mind” device and brain, but they are all generated by brain.

So five devices (six in total) all generated by one device that can all “experience” each other and are aware of themselves and each other, but not brain. Brain—which does all these amazing things blindly and without any purpose or reason—juggles all of these plates and they can all have magical self-referential/self-awareness qualities but not the brain. It can’t. It can generate them, but it does not have them in your world.

When it throws balls into the air, it is not juggling. “Juggling”—the activity—is a separate thing/device and it is what is juggling itself and it can examine itself and know that it is juggling, but the juggler? Totally oblivious to anything at all to do with the “juggling” thing.
 
From a 2004 thread at Internet Infidels, "Tentativity- A stake for presuppositionalism?"

Jobar said:
I was thinking about the Prime Axiom- our assumption that our senses are not consistently lying to us when they report the external, objective world.

It occurred to me that we may not need the PA. We can hold our whole worldview, including the very foundations provided by our senses, tentatively- we need not posit an external world which our senses report with approximate accuracy. Instead of being an absolute, an axiom, the PA becomes a postulate. We don't presuppose it. We judge our worldview solely on internal consistency; we don't try to anchor it anywhere in any absolute, because there are no absolutes that we can perceive.

I'd like to explore this. Say we make no assumptions about the reliability of our senses, and start out theorizing that we are all solipsistic awarenesses. We, as sole observers, can still look for patterns, consistent and repetitious occurrences that impress themselves upon our consciousness. We can build up to an internally consistent system of apparent causes and effects, not grounded in anything but the necessary existence of our own consciousness. The existence of the external world becomes a powerful theoretical framework on which we- tentatively- build up our worldview, and remain open to the tiny possibility that we are in fact purely solipsist awarenesses. Thus, any evidence (defined as any consistent pattern within our awareness) which tends to deny the PA doesn't destroy all our theories of the physical (or better, metaphysical) world we observe- though it would necessitate a sea-change of worldview even deeper than the switch from classical to relativistic physics.

It may be said that then cogito, ergo sum becomes our presupposition; but I think that we can easily demonstrate that nihilism is the only alternative. I doubt even the most rabid theist will be willing to presuppose his own nonexistence!
...
I'm not a solipsist, partly because it appears that even when our senses fail us- drugs, injury, starvation, or optical illusion- the best explanation is still positing an objective universe outside of our sensorium. It's just that I can't absolutely prove that my experiences aren't solipsistic, and only *appear* as if the external world exists.

A hypothetical situation- suddenly, everyone on Earth can see infrared, as a directly visible color. No explanation for the change is found; all eyes simply have cones which pick up wavelengths below the red. The religious, of course, all start screaming "MIRACLE!!!". Science can give us no mechanism to understand the discontinuity.

Would we then accept that God *really did* do it? Well, I wouldn't and I doubt most of the philosophically sophisticated unbelievers here would, either. However, it *would* cause me to go back to my deepest beliefs, and reassess them all; since my very senses have changed in a profoundly unexplainable way, the Prime Axiom is out the window. If I were, say, an objectivist, my entire worldview might crumble. Aha, but if I had held the PA tentatively, as a postulate rather than a foundational axiom, I could comfortably retreat all the way back to solipsism, and rebuild from that point!
 
I am brain. I cannot form opinions. Only “that which can form opinions” can form opinions.

You can express opinions but you cannot form them?

Insanity!

It experiences all things.

All things that brain presents to it.

Absolutely. The brain is the willing slave to the mind and is constantly providing the mind with information. And you, some mind out there, are experiencing it.

And it can examine what it experiences.

So it is both “that which can experience” AND that which can “examine what it can experience”? But it’s not “that which knows it is experiencing” also, as that would mean it’s a thing capable of experiencing itself and as you have declared by fiat and not cogent argumentation there can never be a thing that can experience itself.

The mind can experience and it can act in several ways. It can move the arm when it desires.

It can cause the brain to retrieve a memory.

It can arrange and examine ideas. It knows what ideas are.

And all these things can be experienced and are experienced.

Some however are not very honest about what they experience for some strange reason.

So five devices (six in total)

One device that does more than one thing. Hard for some to accept with their mind but true.

I really tire of trying to teach you.

Can you try to teach me?

Can you name one thing that you know about that is not an experience?
 
You can express opinions but you cannot form them?

Insanity!

I am brain. I create opinions as “presentations” which I then give to “that which can express opinions.” Since I am brain, I cannot also be “that which can express opinions.” One thing cannot also be another thing, remember?

The brain is the willing slave to the mind

Wait. So the brain has a “will” device too?

So, wait we now have:
  1. Brain Device.
  2. Brain Will Device.
  3. Mind Device (aka, “that which experiences”).
  4. Meta Mind Device (aka, “that which knows the Mind Device is in the act of experiencing”).
  5. Meta Meta Mind Device (aka, “that which can examine what the Mind Device is experiencing”).
  6. Mind Will Device.

And Brain Device generates 2 through 6–and everything 2-6 “experience”—but different rules apply to only brain for no logical reason, just fiat.

:thumbsup:

And it can examine what it experiences.

So it is both “that which can experience” AND that which can “examine what it can experience”? But it’s not “that which knows it is experiencing” also, as that would mean it’s a thing capable of experiencing itself and as you have declared by fiat and not cogent argumentation there can never be a thing that can experience itself.

The mind can experience and it can act in several ways.

But the brain can’t, in spite of the fact that the brain generates it.

And all these things can be experienced and are experienced.

So a thing can experience itself.

So five devices (six in total)

One device that does more than one thing.

Just like brain.

I really tire of trying to teach you.

Then please rest, because I am brain and you are not teaching anything.

Can you try to teach me?

I am brain. I create all things that you experience, but for some incoherent and poorly thought out reason, I evidently cannot do more than one thing—in spite of the things I generate having that ability—and thus can only create “presentations” for you to teach yourself, I guess. I can’t know, because I am that which cannot do for itself what it does for other things.

Can you name one thing that you know about that is not an experience?

Brain. Brain is that which does not experience.
 
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Apparently you have ceded that reality is independent of what someone "experiences" or says about their "experience". What people mistakenly believe and say about reality is another story.

No.

I have said it is beneficial to believe there is a "reality" external to experience.

If you ignore the stairs you may have pain more difficult to ignore.

Did something "real" cause the pain? That is a belief. Who knows?

I only know I experience the pain and do not want any more of it.

You are an illusion, thought forms created by your brain chemistry, a self delusion. 'You' exist only in your]r brain.

Physically there is no outer inner dichotomy. We physically exist as a compilation of matter and interact with the universe. I'd take believing there is no reality outside your thoughts as a disorder.
 
What you know of clocks are your subjective experiences of them. Nothing more.

If you have the subjective experience of a person telling you they experience the same time as you what do you have beyond your subjective experiences?

You can call it something but it is just your subjective experiences.

You have nothing else beyond your subjective experiences and what you subjectively make of them.

I reject your objective, subjective paradigm. There is no evidence in it beyond personal testimony. I have what I choose to fill the slot you attribute to subjective. I can accept material evidences and use them as markers for objective comment.

When you can show to the world evidence, physical evidence, for a subjective that is meaningful and consistent and follows laws of nature then you can make the claims which you shout from the rooftops, not before. All you have is hearsay. Show me the objective evidence of your subjective experiment.

I admit it will be difficult for you because evidernce requires objective sesults.
 
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