One Year Later, Crimeans Prefer Russia

[tupac chopra]

Wait a minute. The act of rebellion was the coup that your tax dollars brought about.


This is what George Friedman is saying!! For fucks sake! It seems like the average American lives in lala land where even if someone like George Friedman tells them what happened they put their fingers in their ears and have another Big Mac (on money they borrowed from those they are trying to make an enemy of).

Maybe you think there is no legitimate method to remove a leader currently in power because you have only experienced dictatorships like those that exist in Russia and Belarus. Also, unlike what you may be used to, protests are allowed in free countries and do not in and of themselves constitute an act of illegal rebellion or a coup when such protests lead to removal of the leader in accordance with the laws and the constitution of the country in question.

http://rt.com/usa/trespass-bill-obama-secret-227/
You need to get familiar with the direction your nation is moving

 

[Togo]

But instead or making a friend of Russia America is demonising Russia and thus alienating Europe. It is Europe who is paying the price for sanctions against Russia. They will eventually get sick of this and realise that America is a friend that costs them dearly. It is Europe that is within striking range of Russia's cruise missile , not the USA. Europe is at risk. Europe will more than likely awaken to this uneven relationship.

The idea here is that Europe will approve of Russia unilaterally annexing territory in Europe?

I'm not sure I understand the position. We know that Russia is supporting the rebellion, with volunteers, equipment, and logistical support. Yet you continually condemn the removal of Yanukovich as a foreign coup. Do you disapprove of such actions or not?

If yes, then Russia is at least equally guilty, and has gone much further down that road than the US has, suggesting your support for Russia on these grounds is hypocritical.

Can anyone explain how the US has acted worse than Russia in this context?

 

[Togo]

You need to get familiar with the direction your nation is moving

Which is better done by using sources other than Russian State Media. Again, for someone who decries the influence of Media, you certainly seem to uncritically accept what it says.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/how-big-deal-hr-347-criminalizing-protest-bill

 

[tupac chopra]

But instead or making a friend of Russia America is demonising Russia and thus alienating Europe. It is Europe who is paying the price for sanctions against Russia. They will eventually get sick of this and realise that America is a friend that costs them dearly. It is Europe that is within striking range of Russia's cruise missile , not the USA. Europe is at risk. Europe will more than likely awaken to this uneven relationship.

The idea here is that Europe will approve of Russia unilaterally annexing territory in Europe?

I'm not sure I understand the position. We know that Russia is supporting the rebellion, with volunteers, equipment, and logistical support. Yet you continually condemn the removal of Yanukovich as a foreign coup. Do you disapprove of such actions or not?

dissaprove of what. It's not clear to me what you are asking

If yes, then Russia is at least equally guilty, and has gone much further down that road than the US has, suggesting your support for Russia on these grounds is hypocritical.

Ok..I think I see. So the coup junta attacked the east. And you want the east to lay down and be killed. Are you insane?

Can anyone explain how the US has acted worse than Russia in this context?

That is such an easy question. The USA started it and those in the east defended themselves. What part are you having difficulty with?

 

[tupac chopra]

You need to get familiar with the direction your nation is moving

Which is better done by using sources other than Russian State Media. Again, for someone who decries the influence of Media, you certainly seem to uncritically accept what it says.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/how-big-deal-hr-347-criminalizing-protest-bill

You haven't refuted my claim about the direction of the trend though. Did you want to?
Or...were you trying to move the goal posts?

 

[Axulus]

Not if his goal is to merely destabilize Ukraine, rather than conquer as much land as possible. .

Do you think that the US wants to get NATO bases in Ukraine? Just to digress for a minute.
That to me seems to be what is going on, and it seems entirely consistent with their stated goals.

Just interested though, do you think that is what they want?

The Bush doctrine on steroids: Ukraine may someday have NATO bases within it, so better preemptively take control of it to prevent that from ever happening.

I never would've taken you for a Bush admirer, but it looks like you are two peas in a pod.

 

[Jayjay]

Such errors of attribution are common.

Way too common in western media.

What western media reported this? Even the picture said "Sen Inhofe via Ukrainian Politicians".

 

[Jayjay]

If yes, then Russia is at least equally guilty, and has gone much further down that road than the US has, suggesting your support for Russia on these grounds is hypocritical.

Ok..I think I see. So the coup junta attacked the east. And you want the east to lay down and be killed. Are you insane?

You are confusing the timeline again. The separatist militias started taking over goverment buildings on April 7th. So what "attack" prior to that are you talking about?

Can anyone explain how the US has acted worse than Russia in this context?

That is such an easy question. The USA started it and those in the east defended themselves. What part are you having difficulty with?

The US had nothing to do with it. The separatists are the ones who drew first blood by taking hostages and occupying government buildings. It takes a special kind of delusion to deny Russia did not start this war, and at the same time see CIA and NATO under every rock and in every shadow.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ok..I think I see. So the coup junta attacked the east. And you want the east to lay down and be killed. Are you insane?

You are confusing the timeline again. The separatist militias started taking over goverment buildings on April 7th. So what "attack" prior to that are you talking about?

The Ukraine War against the East Ukraine?

11/23/13

Tens of thousands of Ukrainians have flooded the streets of Kiev in the biggest anti-government protest since the 2004 Orange revolution to demand President Viktor Yanukovych reverses a decision not to sign a key pact with the European Union.

12/17/13

In a sharp rebuff to the West in the diplomatic wrangle over Ukraine, President Vladimir V. Putin said Tuesday that Russia would come to the rescue of its financially troubled neighbor, providing $15 billion in loans and a steep discount on natural gas prices.

It was a bold but risky move by Russia, given the political chaos in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, where thousands of demonstrators remain encamped in Independence Square, protesting their government’s failure to sign political and free-trade accords with Europe.

While Mr. Putin portrayed Russia’s assistance as a gallant move, requiring Ukraine neither to commit to the customs union nor to put in place any of the austerity measures demanded by the I.M.F., the rescue plan carries serious long-term economic and political risks. Experts say that unless Ukraine carries out overhauls, including increases in household utility rates, limits on government spending and pension increases, and improvements in the business climate, the country’s economic problems will continue, raising the likelihood that the aid will be wasted.

01/24/14

Meanwhile, Mr Yanukovych vowed to use "all legal means" if a solution to the crisis is not found.

At a meeting with religious leaders, he also promised to amend anti-protests laws rushed through parliament last week and reshuffle the government at an urgent session of parliament due to begin on Tuesday.


And he said amnesty would be granted to those detained activists who had not committed "grave crimes".


In the capital, Kiev, new barricades were erected as the main protest camp expanded.


Demonstrators braving freezing conditions in Kiev's Independence Square - widely known as the Maidan - also occupied a government building as a truce with riot police continued.

Lots of people die, a good deal of destruction

02/22/14

BBC Europe Editor Gavin Hewitt says Friday's fragile agreement has been overtaken by events. All riot police have gone from Independence Square and protesters are walking around outside parliament. "Here on the street there is a very eerie sense that they have won their 'revolution'," he says.

01/12/15

Interpol has placed deposed Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych on its wanted list, almost one year after he fled to neighbouring Russia.

He is accused by Ukrainian officials of embezzling millions of dollars in public funds.

Mr Yanukovych was ousted after clashes between police and protesters in Kiev left dozens dead, mainly demonstrators.

Afterwards, Russia moved to annexe Crimea from Ukraine and conflict broke out in parts of eastern Ukraine.

So let's review. Russia is the good guy, their interests in giving aid to Ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of economic alliance that the Ukraine must sign and not sign a deal with the EU. Protests that didn't happen weren't threatened with Civil Penalty and creating laws to make protesting illegal. The US organized a coup that had no support across the country. Yanukovych is the innocent party in all of this. And a Civilian airliner was brought down too.

 

[tupac chopra]

The US had nothing to do with it. .

Footprints of the US State Department
Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup

Listening to the US media, even the most diligent news junkie would find it difficult to know that the U.S. State Department played not only a vital role in the violence and chaos underway in Ukraine but was also complicit in creating the coup that ousted democratically elected President Viktor Yanuyovch.

 

[tupac chopra]

So let's review. Russia is the good guy,

Hardly

their interests in giving aid to Ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of economic alliance that the Ukraine must sign and not sign a deal with the EU.

The signing was delayed to make some changes.

The US organized a coup that had no support across the country.

Of course it had some support. The racist neo Nazi groups definitely supported it. Are you aware of that?
But why does the US think it is it's role to organise coups??

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/11/nyt-whites-out-ukraines-brown-shirts/

By Robert Parry

In covering the Ukraine crisis, the New York Times continues its descent into becoming little more than a propaganda organ for the U.S. State Department and the Kiev regime, again refusing to acknowledge the role of neo-Nazi militias in the civil war against ethnic Russians in the east.

On Wednesday, the Times published a long article by Rick Lyman that presented the situation in the port city of Mariupol as if the advance by ethnic Russian rebels amounted to the arrival of barbarians at the gate while the inhabitants were being bravely defended by the forces of civilization. But then the article cites the key role in that defense played by the Azov battalion.

Though the article provides much color and detail – and quotes an Azov leader prominently – it leaves out one salient and well-known fact about the Azov battalion, that it is composed of neo-Nazis who display the Swastika, SS markings and other Nazi symbols.

But this inconvenient truth – that neo-Nazis have been central to Kiev’s “self-defense forces” from last February’s coup to the present – would presumably disrupt the desired propaganda message. So the New York Times just ignores it and refers to Azov as simply a “volunteer unit.”

What’s particularly egregious about this omission is that the connections between the Azov battalion and Nazism have been well-documented for months and even acknowledged by officials of the Kiev regime, who knowingly sent these and other extremists into the battle because they are the fiercest fighters.

 

[Axulus]

So let's review. Russia is the good guy, their interests in giving aid to Ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of economic alliance that the Ukraine must sign and not sign a deal with the EU. Protests that didn't happen weren't threatened with Civil Penalty and creating laws to make protesting illegal.

Yes, so far so good, if we are talking about the events that happened before the Crimera take over.

The US organized a coup that had no support across the country.

And this is where you dive into full delusion mode. It can't possibly be that the vast majority of the citizens were outraged at Yanukovych and wanted him replaced. No, it must be big bad ole US pulling the strings like a puppet master, despite no evidence whatsoever. It just can't possibly be any other way. You've seemed to stake your whole perspective of the world on this being true, like a deeply held religious belief.

Yanukovych is the innocent party in all of this.

The people wanted him gone and they wanted the opportunity to elect someone new. He stubbornly held on to his position and even authorized violence against the protesters. Eventually the people got their wish. You do realize there are methods to legitimately remove someone unwanted from power in most Democracies and call for new elections earlier than scheduled?

 

[Jayjay]

Footprints of the US State Department
Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup

We've been through that nonsense, and the evidence of any US involvement in the violence is still lacking. Even the smoking gun of Nuland's call that Russia intercepted at best shows that US accepted Yanukovich's proposal and was working to resolve the conflict by diplomatic means.

And your avoiding to show where Kiev attacked Donbass is noted. Because there was no such attack.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hardly

Hardly? Seriously? You going to shift the goalposts that far?

their interests in giving aid to Ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of economic alliance that the Ukraine must sign and not sign a deal with the EU.

The signing was delayed to make some changes.

Uh huh... and that delay had nothing to do with the Russian deal?

The US organized a coup that had no support across the country.

Of course it had some support. The racist neo Nazi groups definitely supported it. Are you aware of that?

Does this fall under the all protesters were Neo-Nazis but not all Neo-Nazis were protesting thing?

You didn't seem to address anything from my post that seemed to indicate that the US and Russia are dicking around in Ukraine, and the Ukranian leader was a criminal. Protests were being held in Ukraine and the Ukranian leader (who was in charge when the nation was pretty much becoming bankrupt) was threatening to ban protesting. The links put a context into the events that happened, instead of this Putin Fan Fic that is being strewn together by some here.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, so far so good, if we are talking about the events that happened before the Crimera take over.

The US organized a coup that had no support across the country.

And this is where you dive into full delusion mode. It can't possibly be that the vast majority of the citizens were outraged at Yanukovych and wanted him replaced. No, it must be big bad ole US pulling the strings like a puppet master, despite no evidence whatsoever. It just can't possibly be any other way. You've seemed to stake your whole perspective of the world on this being true, like a deeply held religious belief.

Yanukovych is the innocent party in all of this.

The people wanted him gone and they wanted the opportunity to elect someone new. He stubbornly held on to his position and even authorized violence against the protesters. Eventually the people got their wish. You do realize there are methods to legitimately remove someone unwanted from power in most Democracies and call for new elections earlier than scheduled?

I invite you to reread my post and catch the appropriate context I was trying to put forth.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Putin's politics are like judo... his opponent makes a misstep, and he takes advantage. Regardless of who started it, the conflict in Georgia is not resolved, and there are tens of thousands of internally displaced refugees who are not allowed to return. I fully expect the same thing to happen in Ukraine.

So, Georgia attacking (with US help) South Ossetia was just a mistake?
Yes, there are displaced refugees there, as well as in Kosovo. Yet somehow Kosovo is better than Abkhazia (which have never been part of independent Georgia and was merely Stalin's gift to himself).
You all hate Stalin, right? then Georgia has no rights whatsoever to Abkhazia.

No, it's the same thing we are seeing in the Ukraine--Russian-backed separatists causing the problems. Georgia attacked because they were tired of being attacked.

- - - Updated - - -

Such errors of attribution are common.

Way too common in western media.

In everyone's media these days.

A photo gets mislabeled. A reporter uses it as what it's labeled as.

- - - Updated - - -

http://rt.com/usa/trespass-bill-obama-secret-227/
You need to get familiar with the direction your nation is moving

You need to get some news rather than just propaganda.

 

[tupac chopra]

Russian involvement in Ukraine - I can't believe that there are still denialists:

http://www.channel4.com/news/tensions-still-high-in-ukraine-video

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/09/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0IT0AF20141109

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...tin-s-troops-now-in-ukraine-analysts-say.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/russian-soldiers-ukraine-rights-groups

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrain...ps-presence-of-nato-forces-in-donbass/5431369

In an interview with Ukrainian Espesso TV, Ukrainian military expert Major Aleksander Taran confirmed what General Muzenko head of the Ukrainian Armed Forces had to say on the subject.

During a briefing with General Muzenko he announced that “To date, we have only the involvement of some members of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and Russian citizens that are part of illegal armed groups involved in the fighting. We are not fighting with the regular Russian Army. We have enough forces and means in order to inflict a final defeat even with illegal armed formation present. “- he said.

 

[barbos]

So, Georgia attacking (with US help) South Ossetia was just a mistake?
Yes, there are displaced refugees there, as well as in Kosovo. Yet somehow Kosovo is better than Abkhazia (which have never been part of independent Georgia and was merely Stalin's gift to himself).
You all hate Stalin, right? then Georgia has no rights whatsoever to Abkhazia.

No, it's the same thing we are seeing in the Ukraine--Russian-backed separatists causing the problems. Georgia attacked because they were tired of being attacked.

Careful, you are veering off of official western narative.
And you are still wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrain...ps-presence-of-nato-forces-in-donbass/5431369

Simply assume anything from that site is false, you'll be more accurate than if you figure it's true.

 

[barbos]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrain...ps-presence-of-nato-forces-in-donbass/5431369

Simply assume anything from that site is false, you'll be more accurate than if you figure it's true.

I am sorry to disappoint you but General Muzenko did say that.
Current ukrainian "government" has no problem with saying different things to different audiences.

There is no regular russian forces in Ukraine. If there were they would have been in Kiev already.
Western media makes this conclusion based on the supposition that rebels seem too strong compared to ukrainian army. This is ridiculous logic.
First of all, there is no ukrainian army, most capable units which fight there are privately funded by Kolomoisky volunteers. They are not directly controlled by ukrainian government and routinely disobey orders and threaten to overthrow their own government. They are capable but there are not that many of them, as for regular army they are desperately trying to mobilize 50-60 year olds into it. Frankly, it's a miracle that rebels are not in Kiev yet. The funny thing is, Western ukrainians are the ones flat out refusing to go to war, they leave the country by whole villages (Some went to Russia, pretty bizarre? ) As for 50-60 year olds, these cretins tried to subscript the coach of national soccer team. (the guy is 53 or something). He told them to fuck off and that he is not going to fight in place where he was born (he is from eastern Ukraine).
In short Ukraine is a very bizarre place now.

During chechen wars russian army was orders of magnitudes more organized/capable and yet it was suffering defeats all the time from ordinary rebels and yet nobody was saying they were not rebels.

 

[Jayjay]

Simply assume anything from that site is false, you'll be more accurate than if you figure it's true.

I am sorry to disappoint you but General Muzenko did say that.

Even RT acknowledges that the quote is taken out of context:

On Thursday, Muzhenko said “the Ukrainian army is not engaged in combat operations against Russian units.” He added, however, that he had information about Russian individuals fighting in the country’s east. He also said the Ukrainian army has everything it needs to drive off armed units in Donbass. His speech was aired by Ukraine's Channel 5 television, owned by President Petro Poroshenko.

Commenting on Muzhenko’s statement, Galushko said that reporters were only allowed at the open part of the meeting. He said that later, during the closed part, the chief of general staff said that Russian units are “in the second tier.”

Muzhenko himself did not elaborate on the initial statement.

Besides, it makes sense that Russia would not send its own regular troops to the front lines to get killed or captured, when they can use the locals for that. It's feasible that the Russian troops are mostly specialists and support.

There is no regular russian forces in Ukraine. If there were they would have been in Kiev already.

Not if that's not Russia's goal.