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Other resurrections in the Bible

SLD

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OK, Jesus’s death and resurrection are the central feature of Christianity. But what’s the big deal? There are at least four other resurrections in the Bible and none of them are worshipped as gods.

Elijah raised a young boy in 1 Kings, and he himself doesn’t die, but rides away on a chariot of fire. Elisha then raises a son of the woman of Shunem in Kings 2, and again after he dies, a dead man is thrown into his tomb and is resurrected when his body just touches Elisha’s bones. The last is also in 2 Kings.

The fourth is Lazarus which we have already had another discussion on the oddity of Jesus’s weeping over it when he knew he was going to raise him back up.

So what then is the big deal of Jesus’s resurrection. I once saw a billboard in Alabama claiming the resurrection split time I half. I think the morons thought AD meant after death. BC means before crucifixion. Hmmm.

But why didn’t any of these other resurrections split time I half? What’s so special about Jesus? Seems to me that riding away in a Chariot of fire is far cooler, too.
 
The Jesus tale has good guys and bad guys, smart people and dumb people, enemies and pathetically clueless onlookers. It's an emotional tale with monsters and lots of pathos, blood, gore and finally in the end, a superhero triumphing despite it all. In a sense it is just a continuation and development of those earlier tales but with more emotional appeal, more violins, more melodrama, more gotcha moments and more escapism. And folks love escapism.

Modern movies take the same plot approach. Find a humble victim, create a monster, have the poor victim one-up the monster and triumph.
 
Also:

Matthew 27
After Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, he died. At that moment the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook. The rocks split. Tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs. After Jesus was raised from the dead, they went into the holy city. There they appeared to many people.​
 
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Also:

Matthew 27
After Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, he died. At that moment the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook. The rocks split. Tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs. After Jesus was raised from the dead, they went into the holy city. There they appeared to many people.​
Good point! Many other resurrections.
 
Apologist Mike Licona shared this short 3 minute video yesterday arguing Jesus rose from the dead:

At issue here is the earliest account of Jesus's resurrection appearances in the creed/poetry that Paul apparently quotes and expands on that says:

1 Corinthians 15:3-8

New Revised Standard Version

3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Of course, if I was to go to my father's grave and found it empty and then I thought I saw him, I wouldn't conclude from this that God raised my dad from the dead, since there are any number of other explanations. My friend's mom "heard" her husband in the house after he died, for instance. It is commonplace for the mind to hallucinate all manner of experiential oddities when one is in bereavement: https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/46/6/1367/5939754

It's not at all clear that the resurrection "appearance" reports referred to something visible, as opposed to an inner mystical experience, because "see" can be used metaphorically in the New Testament. So, we read:

"And all flesh shall see the salvation of God (Luke 3:6)."​



Carrier comments:



Paul says apostles saw Jesus “inside” themselves (Gal. 1:16), in “revelations,” visions, not, he specifically says, “with flesh and blood” as depicted in the Gospels (Gal. 1:11-12). And his experience was the same as everyone else’s, excepting only in being last in order (1 Cor. 15:3-8; 1 Cor. 9:1; see OHJ, Ch. 11.4). See https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/12263

In any case, we can imagine the distraught Cephas/Peter experiencing a weird hallucinatory event, and his hysteria/experience spreading to the rest of the grieving disciples. Similarly, the experiences of the disciples could have primed the 500 to experience what they did, like the children's prediction resulted in the mass hysteria of the Fatima sky miracle/hallucination:

The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: Milagre do Sol), also known as the Miracle of Fátima, is a series of events reported to have occurred miraculously on 13 October 1917, attended by a large crowd who had gathered in Fátima, Portugal, in response to a prophecy made by three shepherd children, Lúcia Santos and Francisco and Jacinta Marto. The prophecy was that the Virgin Mary (referred to as Our Lady of Fátima), would appear and perform miracles on that date. Newspapers published testimony from witnesses who said that they had seen extraordinary solar activity, such as the Sun appearing to "dance" or zig-zag in the sky, careen towards the Earth, or emit multicolored light and radiant colors. According to these reports, the event lasted approximately ten minutes. (Wiki)
As for Paul, there's no reason to suppose there is anything miraculous in his experience of Jesus, since Paul was certainly prone to weird experiences. He also may have been under cognitive stress because he was persecuting a movement who had Paul's family members as prominent figures. See: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/religionprof/2021/04/paul-and-his-relatives.html

It's also not clear Paul envisioned an empty tomb scenario, since he doesn't mention one. Some readers propose that Paul envisions the old body being left behind for a new resurrection body: https://jamestabor.com/why-a-spiritual-resurrection-is-the-only-sensible-option/ The empty tomb story may have been a later apologetic invention dreamed up to counter opponents who were saying the disciples were just hallucinating out of grief: Jesus is given a dishonorable burial in Mark, but surprise the last becomes first, and he escapes the tomb!

Also, a case can be made that the disciples stole the body and invented the appearance stories to continue the movement, since such cults often died out with the death of the leader: https://infidels.org/library/modern/john-macdonald-justified-lie/

So, the post-mortem appearance stories about Jesus can be explained in a completely mundane way, and so there is no reason to invoke an inherently less plausible supernatural explanation that God raised Jesus from the dead..
 
Similarly, the experiences of the disciples could have primed the 500 to experience what they did, like the children's prediction resulted in the mass hysteria of the Fatima sky miracle/hallucination:
Consider the following event where 6000 people believed they saw Jesus....
The alleged event involving 500 people could be a much smaller scale version of basically the same event that is known to have happened....
 
OK, Jesus’s death and resurrection are the central feature of Christianity. But what's the . . .

But it matters what really happened.

If your premise, at the outset, is that it doesn't matter what really happened, and all beliefs about miracles or "resurrection" etc. are equally nonsense, regardless of the evidence, then questions like the following are the result:


. . . But what’s the big deal? There are at least four other resurrections in the Bible and none of them are worshipped as gods.

The main reason those are not a "big deal" is that 3 of them probably did not really happen, and the 4th (Lazarus) was raised by Jesus, and so it's not Lazarus who is worshipped as a god but rather the one who raised him.


Elijah raised a young boy in 1 Kings, and he . . .

If you read the account carefully, it never really says the boy died, but only that he stopped breathing. And at that point Elijah performs the ritual to revive him. "Resurrection" properly has to mean that the one resurrected did really die, rather than just faint and possibly stop breathing momentarily. There are many documented cases of this. In some cases of this the revived one does require someone to do something or they expire, but in other cases they revive on their own without anyone doing something. But anyway, this story and the next 2 Elisha "resurrection" stories probably did not really happen.

. . . and he himself doesn’t die, but rides away on a chariot of fire.

But this probably did not really happen. The Elijah-Elisha stories are all from one source only, and this is dated 200-300 years later than the miracle events allegedly happened. For a miracle claim to be credible, the reported event and the written account reporting it need to be some time close to each other, like less than 100 years apart. Certainly 200+ years is too far removed from the event for us to give credibility to the account written so long after and likely a product of story-telling and mythologizing over that long time lapse.


Elisha then raises a son of the woman of Shunem in Kings 2, and again . . .

If we set aside the problem of the much later date of the written account, and if we assume that the earlier Elijah story is true -- perhaps he revived the boy who had fainted -- this later Elisha story can easily be recognized as a copycat story, derived from the earlier Elijah story, as the ritual performed by the prophet is identically the same in both. The extreme resemblance of the 2 stories cannot be attributed to coincidence. So even if there's some truth to the earlier Elijah story, this later story is obviously just a reproduction of the earlier one, and some details are changed -- the child really does die in the later Elisha story -- to add more impact.

So for both of these stories, there's no reason to believe, no evidence, that a dead person was brought back to life.

. . . and again after he dies, a dead man is thrown into his tomb and is resurrected when his body just touches Elisha’s bones. The last is also in 2 Kings.

Along with the problem of the much-too-late dating of the source, this incident has the added problem that there are no witnesses to it mentioned in the account.

In fact, if we take the stories at face value, there are virtually no witnesses to any of these miracle resurrection stories. Only the prophet and the mother of the child, in the first two, and no witnesses at all in the third, other than the dead man in that tomb, and when he comes to life, how does he know what happened? Obviously that dead man could easily have been a live man added to the pile by someone who thought he was dead, and he simply woke up when something struck him.

So even if we give some credibility to this one account, written 200-300 years later, there's no reason or evidence in any of it to conclude that any dead person came back to life.

But with all that, let us suppose that perhaps this or some other case of "resurrection" might have happened, whether or not they are recorded in some written accounts. That such a thing may have happened does not in any way undermine the truth of what happened in 30 AD, for which we have real evidence, which is 5 sources, or written accounts of the time, saying that Jesus was killed, witnessed by many onlookers, that he was buried, witnessed by some of the same onlookers, that his burial place was later found empty and that he was seen alive physically by many witnesses, and these saw him together in large numbers, not only 1 or 2 who could have been hallucinating, and not by someone who had never seen him before but by people who knew him from earlier and could recognize him.

So a major difference between the Jesus resurrection and earlier possible cases of someone being revived is that in the latter cases we have no serious evidence telling us of the event such as we have for the Jesus resurrection of about 30 AD. It makes a difference whether the reported event(s) really happened, and the evidence, or written accounts reporting it, are our only guide to what really did and did not happen. Just as with all other historical events we know about.


The fourth is Lazarus which we . . .

And the "big deal" here is the power of Jesus to bring a dead person back to life, and obviously not anything about worshipping Lazarus as a god.

. . . which we have already had another discussion on the oddity of Jesus’s weeping over it when he knew he was going to raise him back up.

Even if we assume the author used the Lazarus incident to make a dramatic point, and even that he added the element of emotion or sentiment, it does not undermine the credibility of the basic event reported, of a dead person being raised back to life. It is very normal for an author to take a real event for his subject matter and provide a dramatic presentation of it for us. Whether the detail that "Jesus wept" really, as a matter of fact, is obviously not what's important.


So what then is the big deal of Jesus’s resurrection.

It's a big deal if it really happened. To say it doesn't matter is just another way of saying it did not really happen and is only another fiction like some others. But it's not like others, because in this case we have real evidence that it really did happen. But also, if "resurrection" has happened at other times or places, in one way or another, that too might be a "big deal" because it means that death does not have to be the end, but that life might resume after death. The Jesus case is our clearest indication, or evidence, for this possibility -- added to the evidence he provided in the many healing miracle acts, for which also we have serious evidence, unlike other ancient miracle legends for which there is no serious evidence, i.e., written accounts of the time reporting what happened.


I once saw a billboard in Alabama claiming the resurrection split time I half. I think the morons thought AD meant after death. BC means before crucifixion. Hmmm.

But why didn’t any of these other resurrections split time I half? What’s so special about Jesus?

The much greater evidence is what's special. Or rather, the serious evidence, lacking in all other cases. Including the lack of ambiguity -- witnesses who saw him killed, saw him buried, saw him alive later. We do not have other accounts of such "resurrection" events in all the ancient literature.

And yet, interestingly, many crusader-debunkers make up stories to claim there were other "resurrections" among the pagan gods and heroes, when there are no such cases. They can't ever produce any written accounts from the time which report any such cases of a person dying and coming back to life. It's obvious that the case of Jesus is "special" -- what is perplexing is the obsession of so many debunker-dogmatists to deny this, going to extremes and pretending that the Jesus case is just one more example of a "resurrection" or "miracle" legend alongside dozens of other similar legends.

If they were honest, and choose to not believe, they would just say we don't know, and we can't explain why it is that in this one case only there is an abundance of evidence, more than enough for normal historical events, while there is no evidence for any other miracle legends. They would try to come up with theories why there is so much evidence in this one case only.


Seems to me that riding away in a Chariot of fire is far cooler, too.

Not if it didn't really happen. (Although even if it did happen, a chariot on fire might explode or meet some other unpleasant outcome, which is not cool.)

No, what's cool is the actual truth of what happened, or if something unusual really did happen. That requires looking at the evidence. Which we do have in this one case but which is always lacking in other ancient miracle "legends" or beliefs or traditions.




 
Also:

Matthew 27
After Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, he died. At that moment the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook. The rocks split. Tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs. After Jesus was raised from the dead, they went into the holy city. There they appeared to many people.​
Good point! Many other resurrections.
But which probably did not happen.

This story is from one source only, making it less credible, plus also it does not harmonize with the other sources we have reporting the Jesus events. If there had been such a rising of several dead bodies, or if this had been reported by many, the other Gospel accounts would have included it. They do present the same general sequence of events at the crucifixion scene, like the 2 others crucified, some in the crowd mocking, etc.

There are some unique miracle stories in this or that Gospel account, but these generally fit the same pattern as the others, with little or no conflict with the others except on minor details. But when one sticks out conspicuously from the others, in conflict with them, then it can be discounted as unlikely.

The same rules of evidence should apply to the Gospel accounts as to all other sources we have for the ancient events. Where they are confirmed by other accounts, they are more credible, but when they conflict they are less credible.

There is no ancient source for history, including mainline sources, which does not contain a mixture of fact and fiction, and which we must accept 100%, even though we do rely on them all in order to determine what happened.
 
BTW this thread is about Christians that don't believe Jesus physically rose from the dead.... (and I guess they don't believe in the other resurrection stories either)

 
Also:

Matthew 27
After Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, he died. At that moment the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook. The rocks split. Tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs. After Jesus was raised from the dead, they went into the holy city. There they appeared to many people.​
Good point! Many other resurrections.
But which probably did not happen.

This story is from one source only, making it less credible, plus also it does not harmonize with the other sources we have reporting the Jesus events. If there had been such a rising of several dead bodies, or if this had been reported by many, the other Gospel accounts would have included it. They do present the same general sequence of events at the crucifixion scene, like the 2 others crucified, some in the crowd mocking, etc.

There are some unique miracle stories in this or that Gospel account, but these generally fit the same pattern as the others, with little or no conflict with the others except on minor details. But when one sticks out conspicuously from the others, in conflict with them, then it can be discounted as unlikely.

The same rules of evidence should apply to the Gospel accounts as to all other sources we have for the ancient events. Where they are confirmed by other accounts, they are more credible, but when they conflict they are less credible.

There is no ancient source for history, including mainline sources, which does not contain a mixture of fact and fiction, and which we must accept 100%, even though we do rely on them all in order to determine what happened.
Of course it didn’t happen. none of them happened. Even the main event. They are all myth.
 
Also:

Matthew 27
After Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, he died. At that moment the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook. The rocks split. Tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs. After Jesus was raised from the dead, they went into the holy city. There they appeared to many people.​
Good point! Many other resurrections.
But which probably did not happen.

This story is from one source only, making it less credible, plus also it does not harmonize with the other sources we have reporting the Jesus events. If there had been such a rising of several dead bodies, or if this had been reported by many, the other Gospel accounts would have included it. They do present the same general sequence of events at the crucifixion scene, like the 2 others crucified, some in the crowd mocking, etc.

There are some unique miracle stories in this or that Gospel account, but these generally fit the same pattern as the others, with little or no conflict with the others except on minor details. But when one sticks out conspicuously from the others, in conflict with them, then it can be discounted as unlikely.

The same rules of evidence should apply to the Gospel accounts as to all other sources we have for the ancient events. Where they are confirmed by other accounts, they are more credible, but when they conflict they are less credible.

There is no ancient source for history, including mainline sources, which does not contain a mixture of fact and fiction, and which we must accept 100%, even though we do rely on them all in order to determine what happened.
Of course it didn’t happen. none of them happened. Even the main event. They are all myth.
translation: It doesn't matter what the evidence shows. The only thing that matters is the dogma that resurrections/miracles cannot ever happen even if the evidence is that they did happen in some case(s).
 
Also:

Matthew 27
After Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, he died. At that moment the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook. The rocks split. Tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs. After Jesus was raised from the dead, they went into the holy city. There they appeared to many people.​
Good point! Many other resurrections.
But which probably did not happen.

This story is from one source only, making it less credible, plus also it does not harmonize with the other sources we have reporting the Jesus events. If there had been such a rising of several dead bodies, or if this had been reported by many, the other Gospel accounts would have included it. They do present the same general sequence of events at the crucifixion scene, like the 2 others crucified, some in the crowd mocking, etc.

There are some unique miracle stories in this or that Gospel account, but these generally fit the same pattern as the others, with little or no conflict with the others except on minor details. But when one sticks out conspicuously from the others, in conflict with them, then it can be discounted as unlikely.

The same rules of evidence should apply to the Gospel accounts as to all other sources we have for the ancient events. Where they are confirmed by other accounts, they are more credible, but when they conflict they are less credible.

There is no ancient source for history, including mainline sources, which does not contain a mixture of fact and fiction, and which we must accept 100%, even though we do rely on them all in order to determine what happened.
Of course it didn’t happen. none of them happened. Even the main event. They are all myth.
translation: It doesn't matter what the evidence shows. The only thing that matters is the dogma that resurrections/miracles cannot ever happen even if the evidence is that they did happen in some case(s).
The problem here is that your "evidence" is extremely weak and would not be allowed even in a modern court of law. 5th hand eyewitness accounts are worthless.
 
Also:

Matthew 27
After Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, he died. At that moment the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook. The rocks split. Tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs. After Jesus was raised from the dead, they went into the holy city. There they appeared to many people.​
Good point! Many other resurrections.
But which probably did not happen.

This story is from one source only, making it less credible, plus also it does not harmonize with the other sources we have reporting the Jesus events. If there had been such a rising of several dead bodies, or if this had been reported by many, the other Gospel accounts would have included it. They do present the same general sequence of events at the crucifixion scene, like the 2 others crucified, some in the crowd mocking, etc.

There are some unique miracle stories in this or that Gospel account, but these generally fit the same pattern as the others, with little or no conflict with the others except on minor details. But when one sticks out conspicuously from the others, in conflict with them, then it can be discounted as unlikely.

The same rules of evidence should apply to the Gospel accounts as to all other sources we have for the ancient events. Where they are confirmed by other accounts, they are more credible, but when they conflict they are less credible.

There is no ancient source for history, including mainline sources, which does not contain a mixture of fact and fiction, and which we must accept 100%, even though we do rely on them all in order to determine what happened.
Of course it didn’t happen. none of them happened. Even the main event. They are all myth.
translation: It doesn't matter what the evidence shows. The only thing that matters is the dogma that resurrections/miracles cannot ever happen even if the evidence is that they did happen in some case(s).
The problem here is that your "evidence" is extremely weak and would not be allowed even in a modern court of law.
It's the same kind of evidence as for most of our known (ancient) history events, 95% of which could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

5th hand eyewitness accounts are worthless.

"5th hand"? Whatever metaphor you use to characterize them, our sources for the Jesus resurrection/miracle acts are more numerous and closer to the reported events than our sources for most of our known ancient history events.

If you toss out as "worthless" all written accounts which report what happened, there's not much history left. E.g., applying your "5th hand" metaphor as the standard, you'd have to eliminate most of the ancient "worthless" documents, including most of Polybius and Plutarch and Josephus and Tacitus and Herodotus and Cicero and Philo the Alexandrian and Pliny the Younger, at least 99% of the Talmud and other literature accepted by historians as legitimate sources for the events they say happened, so you have a big job ahead of you in your crusade to meat-axe 90% of our accepted ancient history record.
 
Also:

Matthew 27
After Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, he died. At that moment the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook. The rocks split. Tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs. After Jesus was raised from the dead, they went into the holy city. There they appeared to many people.​
Good point! Many other resurrections.
But which probably did not happen.

This story is from one source only, making it less credible, plus also it does not harmonize with the other sources we have reporting the Jesus events. If there had been such a rising of several dead bodies, or if this had been reported by many, the other Gospel accounts would have included it. They do present the same general sequence of events at the crucifixion scene, like the 2 others crucified, some in the crowd mocking, etc.

There are some unique miracle stories in this or that Gospel account, but these generally fit the same pattern as the others, with little or no conflict with the others except on minor details. But when one sticks out conspicuously from the others, in conflict with them, then it can be discounted as unlikely.

The same rules of evidence should apply to the Gospel accounts as to all other sources we have for the ancient events. Where they are confirmed by other accounts, they are more credible, but when they conflict they are less credible.

There is no ancient source for history, including mainline sources, which does not contain a mixture of fact and fiction, and which we must accept 100%, even though we do rely on them all in order to determine what happened.
Of course it didn’t happen. none of them happened. Even the main event. They are all myth.
translation: It doesn't matter what the evidence shows. The only thing that matters is the dogma that resurrections/miracles cannot ever happen even if the evidence is that they did happen in some case(s).
The problem here is that your "evidence" is extremely weak and would not be allowed even in a modern court of law.
It's the same kind of evidence as for most of our known (ancient) history events, 95% of which could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

5th hand eyewitness accounts are worthless.

"5th hand"? Whatever metaphor you use to characterize them, our sources for the Jesus resurrection/miracle acts are more numerous and closer to the reported events than our sources for most of our known ancient history events.

If you toss out as "worthless" all written accounts which report what happened, there's not much history left. E.g., applying your "5th hand" metaphor as the standard, you'd have to eliminate most of the ancient "worthless" documents, including most of Polybius and Plutarch and Josephus and Tacitus and Herodotus and Cicero and Philo the Alexandrian and Pliny the Younger, at least 99% of the Talmud and other literature accepted by historians as legitimate sources for the events they say happened, so you have a big job ahead of you in your crusade to meat-axe 90% of our accepted ancient history record.
Well, regarding other historical events, they are generally considered fiction unless we can verify them with more than one source. Cicero, for example, we have multiple sources for. We've found some of his direct writings. The bible is the only source for the resurrection. Why should the bible be trusted?

Secondly, you might want to brush up on your biblical sources. All the sources are second hand. The different parts of the bible were written accounts of the oral testimony of second and third hand "witnesses". It would be like me writing a historical narrative on JFK's assignation based on the stories of Dad as passed down by my grandfather. Not super convincing unless I had secondary sources.

Thirdly, the sources that you list above: Polybius, Plutarch and etc. do not reference the resurrection. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Finally, I enjoy debating this issue with you. However, there is no "big job ahead of me" regarding this. The burden is on you. If you want to claim that a magical event occurred, the big job or burden is on you to demonstrate it.
 
Also:

Matthew 27
After Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, he died. At that moment the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook. The rocks split. Tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs. After Jesus was raised from the dead, they went into the holy city. There they appeared to many people.​
Good point! Many other resurrections.
But which probably did not happen.

This story is from one source only, making it less credible, plus also it does not harmonize with the other sources we have reporting the Jesus events. If there had been such a rising of several dead bodies, or if this had been reported by many, the other Gospel accounts would have included it. They do present the same general sequence of events at the crucifixion scene, like the 2 others crucified, some in the crowd mocking, etc.

There are some unique miracle stories in this or that Gospel account, but these generally fit the same pattern as the others, with little or no conflict with the others except on minor details. But when one sticks out conspicuously from the others, in conflict with them, then it can be discounted as unlikely.

The same rules of evidence should apply to the Gospel accounts as to all other sources we have for the ancient events. Where they are confirmed by other accounts, they are more credible, but when they conflict they are less credible.

There is no ancient source for history, including mainline sources, which does not contain a mixture of fact and fiction, and which we must accept 100%, even though we do rely on them all in order to determine what happened.
Of course it didn’t happen. none of them happened. Even the main event. They are all myth.
translation: It doesn't matter what the evidence shows. The only thing that matters is the dogma that resurrections/miracles cannot ever happen even if the evidence is that they did happen in some case(s).
The problem here is that your "evidence" is extremely weak and would not be allowed even in a modern court of law.
It's the same kind of evidence as for most of our known (ancient) history events, 95% of which could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
Feel free to point us to a known historical event that involved the laws of nature being broken, that historians believe actually happened.


5th hand eyewitness accounts are worthless.

"5th hand"? Whatever metaphor you use to characterize them, our sources for the Jesus resurrection/miracle acts are more numerous and closer to the reported events than our sources for most of our known ancient history events.

If you toss out as "worthless" all written accounts which report what happened, there's not much history left. E.g., applying your "5th hand" metaphor as the standard, you'd have to eliminate most of the ancient "worthless" documents, including most of Polybius and Plutarch and Josephus and Tacitus and Herodotus and Cicero and Philo the Alexandrian and Pliny the Younger, at least 99% of the Talmud and other literature accepted by historians as legitimate sources for the events they say happened, so you have a big job ahead of you in your crusade to meat-axe 90% of our accepted ancient history record.
Your criteria for judging the historicity of the Jesus miracle claims are flawed and considerably biased. Feel free to cite the criteria historians use to assess the credibility of historical claims that violate the laws of nature. Feel free to explain why a naturalistic explanation is not a better explanation than a supernatural one.
 
Response to Harry Bosch (#14)

We have legitimate evidence/sources for the Jesus resurrection.

5th hand eyewitness accounts are worthless.
"5th hand"? Whatever metaphor you use to characterize them, our sources for the Jesus resurrection/miracle acts are more numerous and closer to the reported events than our sources for most of our known ancient history events.

If you toss out as "worthless" all written accounts which report what happened, there's not much history left. E.g., applying your "5th hand" metaphor as the standard, you'd have to eliminate most of the ancient "worthless" documents, including most of Polybius and Plutarch and Josephus and Tacitus and Herodotus and Cicero and Philo the Alexandrian and Pliny the Younger, at least 99% of the Talmud and other literature accepted by historians as legitimate sources for the events they say happened, so you have a big job ahead of you in your crusade to meat-axe 90% of our accepted ancient history record.
Well, regarding other historical events, they are generally considered fiction unless we can verify them with more than one source.
No they're not. There are many facts known from only one source, and they're considered as probable, likely true, unless they are contradicted by another source, in which case they're put into the doubtful category, not fiction category. Much/most of history is actually in the doubtful but "let's assume it's true" category, because of the small evidence reporting it and nothing contradicting it. Of course most of the major high-profile facts are from more than one source, but that's a minority of all the known facts.

An example of a single source is Plutarch who is the only source for many ancient facts generally accepted and taught in history even though he's often the only source, with no verification from any other source.


Cicero, for example, we have multiple sources for.
Not always. He says some things we believe but for which there is no other source. He's accepted even if he's the only source, but it's in a doubtful/probable "let's assume it's true" category. For some of it he's likely exaggerating, propagandizing, expressing his bias and is distrusted. Our "Sword of Damocles" story appears only in Cicero and is accepted as fact, with no other verification, but it's assumed he took it from other sources that are lost.


We've found some of his direct writings. The bible is the only source for the resurrection.
There was no "the bible" in the 1st century, but only the particular writings, like the 4 Gospels and the Paul epistles, so these are 5 sources, not one. "The bible" did not exist until the 4th century when those writings were officially canonized. This 4th century development did not magically change these 5 sources into one only.

If there were really only one source for the resurrection, then there would be very little belief in this as a historical event and we'd not be having this debate.


Why should the bible be trusted?
ALL the ancient writings should be accepted as sources for what happened, with none excluded from consideration. And none is excluded, by the scholars, and none considered infallible, all containing a mixture of fact and fiction. It's legitimate to believe a sole source that's not contradicted, but for unusual claims there should be an extra source. Or if a source is contradicted by another source, then it's more doubtful. Or if it's far removed from the reported events (200-year time gap), then also it's more doubtful.


Secondly, you might want to brush up on your biblical sources. All the sources are second hand.
But that's the norm for ancient history, and even much modern history as well. The vast majority of our ancient history comes from authors who received the information 2nd- or 3rd- or 4th- or 5th-hand. Very little was witnessed by the author directly. Even an author reporting contemporary events usually did not witness it directly. And most is not contemporary but is reported 50-100 years later by our sources.


The different parts of the bible were written accounts of the oral testimony of second and third hand "witnesses".
As were most of our sources for ancient history. Even 4th- and 5th-hand witnesses. You have to be naive to believe your knowledge of the Greeks and Romans came from authors who were right there witnessing the battles and other events directly, with their notebooks or recording devices to get every word and every detail. That's not earth history (though you can cite Caesar and the tiny few cases of a direct witness author).


It would be like me writing a historical narrative on JFK's assassination based on the stories of Dad as passed down by my grandfather. Not super convincing unless I had secondary sources.
Yet that's what much/most of our ancient history is -- maybe just the Dad, but sometimes even the granddad and great-granddad. Plutarch is accepted for events 500 years earlier, even as the sole source in many cases, which would be from great-great-great-great-great granddad. Much of what you believe about the Spartans comes only from Plutarch, not confirmed by other sources.


Thirdly, the sources that you list above: Polybius, Plutarch and etc. do not reference the resurrection. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
You're right, but my point about them is that they are not direct witnesses to most of what they report to us in their writings. They are "5th-hand" witnesses, or even 6th- or 7th-hand, as much as the Paul epistles and Gospel accounts. Of course there is a small amount of direct witness and contemporary witness accounts, but that's a tiny percent of our accepted ancient history. And actually Paul is a direct contemporary, but not eyewitness, to the Resurrection event.


Finally, I enjoy debating this issue with you. However, there is no "big job ahead of me" regarding this. The burden is on you. If you want to claim that a magical event occurred, the big job or burden is on you to demonstrate it.
A reported unusual event becomes more credible as the number of sources for it increases. For the resurrection and miracle acts of Jesus we have 4 or 5 sources, when only one source is acceptable for most of the ancient reported events, as long as they're not contradicted by other sources.

We need extra sources for any "magical" or unusual events, which we do have for the Jesus miracle acts, but which we do not have for other ancient history miracle claims. Also, doubtful claims are made less credible if they are contradicted by other sources. We have at least 2 authors, Josephus and Lucian (2nd century) who discredit some miracle claims made by charlatans they knew of, so we know there were skeptical writers of the period who would give negative reports concerning false miracle claims, but there are no 1st- or 2nd-century writers who contradict the miracle claims made about Jesus in our 1st-century sources.

So we have 5 legitimate sources for the Resurrection, and nothing contradicting these. That is good evidence for ancient events, though not PROOF, which is very rare even for the normal events. And there is no evidence close to this for any other supposed "resurrection" events, so the phrase "other resurrections" is dishonest, pretending that there were other reported cases of this which might be taken seriously.

It's reasonable to take it seriously if there are extra sources confirming the reported unusual event and these are not contradicted by other sources. It's because there's not any such evidence that miracle claims generally are rejected as fiction. But in the few cases where there is the evidence, or extra sources, there is more credibility.
 
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Response to Atrib (#15)

It's the same kind of evidence as for most of our known (ancient) history events, 95% of which could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
Feel free to point us to a known historical event that involved the laws of nature being broken, that historians believe actually happened.

Phrases like "laws of nature being broken" is not necessary in describing the Jesus miracle acts.

However, there is a clear-cut historical event, which is believed by historians, based on the evidence, and which conflicts with most of the known medical science. However, this only means that more science in the future could explain the historical event, and that could also be the case of the Jesus miracle acts, including the Resurrection.

Rasputin the "mad monk"

It is acknowledge by the historians that this character seemed to have had an ability to cause the son of the Czar to recover from a blood disease. Hardly any say it was "supernatural" or "miraculous" etc. They just say they don't know, or that there's no explanation. The "recovery" of the child was usually only temporary, though finally the child seemed to become more resistant. Ultimately he was murdered along with the Czar's family, so it's not clear how his future health would have developed. Maybe he was finally free of the blood disease -- this is not known.

The reason this goes into the "miracle" category is that the mainline doctors were at a loss to help the child in severe pain, after trying everything they could, and yet then Rasputin showed up and somehow brought relief to him, possibly saving his life. This happened several times. All the medical authorities predicted the child would die from the condition.

This case shows that there are known cases in history, documented by the facts, where something was performed which defied the known science, or which baffled the scientists. But this is not the same as "the laws of nature being broken" -- just as the miracle acts of Jesus could have really happened without such violation of natural law. An equally legitimate explanation is just that the current known science is unable to explain what happened. It might be legitimate to call it "superhuman" in the sense that normal human power is unable to perform such acts.

There are other documented cases of power to do acts which humans normally cannot do, which is mainly what the Jesus miracle acts were, on a larger scale than other known cases, and the explanation is not known.
 
There was no "the bible" in the 1st century, but only the particular writings, like the 4 Gospels and the Paul epistles, so these are 5 sources, not one. "The bible" did not exist until the 4th century when those writings were officially canonized. This 4th century development did not magically change these 5 sources into one only.

If there were really only one source for the resurrection, then there would be very little belief in this as a historical event and we'd not be having this debate.
I see you are up to your usual wash, rinse, spin, and repeat thing again, along with shifting goal posts as you try to build your edifice...

Most mainstream Christian theologians agree with the two source hypothesis for the synoptic Gospels, so those 'sources' dial back to 1 mystery/unknown Q source and Mark. Modified copies of independent sources really don't count for yet another source.
Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-source_hypothesis

Paul never met this Jesus, so his letters regarding Jesus are by their very nature second hand. And Paul doesn't discuss the Jesus healing miracles.

The Gospel of John was probably written around 90-110 AD, running past your imagined requirement where sources are to be less trusted as they are so far removed. In this case, the GoJ is hitting 60-80 years later. Never mind that the GoJ is radically different than the synoptic gospels. Secondly, the GoJ doesn't share in these imagined, oh so important healing miracles, with the synoptic Gospels. So, for the Jesus healing miracles, there are only the synoptic gospels (aka the 2 source hypothesis) with 2 sources.
 
If you toss out as "worthless" all written accounts which report what happened, there's not much history left. E.g., applying your "5th hand" metaphor as the standard, you'd have to eliminate most of the ancient "worthless" documents, including most of Polybius and Plutarch and Josephus

When any of them report supernatural shit, it's not considered historical neither, like Josephus's report in Antiquities of God creating Adam and Eve, etc.
 
This will be the longest post I've ever attempted via phone. Wish me luck!

Susceptibiliry to hypnosis is related to self-hypnosis, hallucination, cult worship, "demon possession", etc.

I think these were all more common in ancient times. If so, that would help explain some Jesus stories.

But is it true? Should be testable. Were pre-Columbian Americans (et al) easily hypnotised?
 
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