Ovechkin v Gretzky

[Jimmy Higgins]

Sports world is busy at the moment. Washington Capital star Ovechkin is currently on rehab after suffering a fractured fibula earlier this season. Injuries matter, but the real thing of interest is Ovechkin and scoring. He is the second all-time leading scorer in the NHL, behind only Wayne Gretzky. This has cause the typical argument regarding A v B in different time periods. Wayne Gretzky was one of the best players ever in hockey. One argument for him needing to stay atop the all-time scoring list is that he likely could have scored more, had he wanted to. Wayne Gretzky's greatest accomplishment is having more career assists than any other player in history has points (goals + assists). Jagr is close at 1,921 points to 1,963 assists. A few other players approach with viewing distance, but Gretzky's 2,857 total points (1st overall) to Jagr's 1,921 (2nd overall) is just mind blowing.

Obviously Gretzky's stats are based on playing in the early 80s when goaltending was at its weakest and even players like Stephane Richer and Bernie Nichols were scoring more than 50 goals in a season. And Gretzky played on a Hall of Fame team, with the likes of Messier, Kurri, and Coffey (a poor man's Bobby Orr). That said, Ovechkin plays without the two line offside! BUUUUUUT that is partly because goaltending as well as expansion had reduced scoring.

In the end, both players are the pinnacle of hockey talent. You don't score over 800 goals without being among the best. Ovechkin is 27 goals away from taking the record. Hopefully Ovechkin is able to get healthy and continue playing. It gets harder when one is nearly 40 years old. Hockey is a remarkably hard sport, nothing comes close to the difficulty of playing it. I suffer from the nostalgia of wanting Gretzky's record to stay, but also see a new person on top being a good thing as well. They are both top talents, there is room at the podium for them... 1/4 quarter step below Bobby Orr of course. Only guy to win the Art Ross Trophy for leading scorer and the Norris Trophy as best defenseman, and he did it twice. The best defenseman of all time (won the Norris trophy nearly every year and his season +/- record of 124 seems less attainable than Gretzky's season scoring record. Gretzky's best +/- was 100. Only Robinson was in the same sphere, but he also played on some of the best NHL teams ever assembled) who is fourth all-time in goals per game average.

So cheers to the best of the best.

 

[pood]

I don’t think Ovechkin is even the best player of his era. That would be Sidney Crosby.

The metric for judging how great a player is all-time ought to be excelling in all facets of the game, including goal scoring, playmaking and defensive pay among other factors. Ovechkin has never been a great playmaker and he’s not particularly good defensively. Nor was Gretzky very good defensively, and unlike Ovechkin and a number of others, he didn’t have much physical presence on the ice. He was a great playmaker and goal scorer and perhaps the most intelligent hockey player ever, but as you note he benefited from playing in an era when it was much easier to score than before or since.

I would rank the top four all-time ordered as folllows: G. Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux. That is sort of the Mt. Rushmore of hockey. I’m not sure Ovechkin even makes the top ten.

Note that Howe played six seasons in the WHA, which was a good league in the 70s, just a notch below the NHL. Combining his years in both the NHL and WHA Howe’s regular-season career goal total is 975, No. 1 all-time. Ovechkin is not going to reach that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Gretzky played a season in the WHA, and has a total of 1072 goals including that league.

I'm not huge on top X lists because it is impossible. I'd rather look at plateaus. Ovechkin is on a very high plateau of player.

Orr is alone being one of the greatest offensemen and defensemen of all-time. He reinvented the defensive position while not neglecting it *cough* Coffey! And mostly while injured. Then you have the short 1/4 step down to the Howes, Gretzkys. It is hard to gauge Canadiens due to them playing among the best, which was a feedback loop on greatness. Richard, Beliveau, Lafleur.

Lemieux is the oddball. He, like Orr, had injury issues (even cancer!). I'd say that Lemieux accomplished more with less than Gretzky did. But his body wasn't up to competing in as many games, so he never got to accumulate enough stats.

 

[pood]

Gretzky played a season in the WHA, and has a total of 1072 goals including that league.

Gretzky had 940 regular season goals, including NHL and WHA. Howe had 975.

However, if you combine NHL and WHA regular season AND playoff goals, the result is an amazing near-dead heat: Gretzky 1,072, Howe 1,071.

But wait, there’s more! Who holds the record for most professional hockey goals, regular season and playoffs, PLUS all international tournaments, including Olympics, Canada Cups, etc.?

Astoundingly, another near dead-heat: Jaromir Jagr 1,099, Gretzky 1,098.

 

[pood]

Howe played only 7 games in international tournaments and got 3 goals, so his total is 1,074.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Jagr is a beast of longevity. Another Bobby Hull. Not that Howe didn't play long either.

I'm assuming Jagr has more international tournament games as pros didn't do the Olympics for most of Gretzky's career. Also, Jagr's getting credit for non-NHL pro goals. Regardless, Jagr is a rare talent. Unlike Kevin Stevens he was a HoF'er and played with Lemieux, not merely just a benefactor of Lemieux.

 

[pood]

Right, these are totals for all professional major leagues plus international tournaments. I find those near-dead heats pretty amazing.

 

[pood]

Howe played 32 seasons in the NHL and WHA combined. He played into his early fifties as has Jagr.

 

[pood]

Jagr has had stints in the KHL and the Czech major league.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

What's interesting about Ovi right now is that he was scoring at a higher rate than he had in quite a few years, and he was doing it without PP goals. The Washington PP was anemic - paradoxically, until he got hurt.

His production took a big hit the past couple years because the entire team was old and/or slow. He'd probably already have the goals record if the offense hadn't been so bad. The makeover this season has been remarkable.

 

[bilby]

Well, I saw the thread title and thought that maybe Putin's lackeys had finally started a civil war. Took me a minute to change mental gears.

Around here, we are lucky if we have enough ice to go in a cold drink.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

Well, I saw the thread title and thought that maybe Putin's lackeys had finally started a civil war. Took me a minute to change mental gears.

Around here, we are lucky if we have enough ice to go in a cold drink.

We have ice on our pond 3-4 weeks earlier than usual. A combination of low water level because of the drought, plus much colder than normal temperatures (e.g. wind chill of 8 degrees overnight).

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, I saw the thread title and thought that maybe Putin's lackeys had finally started a civil war. Took me a minute to change mental gears.

Around here, we are lucky if we have enough ice to go in a cold drink.

We have ice on our pond 3-4 weeks earlier than usual. A combination of low water level because of the drought, plus much colder than normal temperatures (e.g. wind chill of 8 degrees overnight).

We had a flooded outdoor rink that the park has given up on because it isn't cold enough anymore for the ice to stay ice.

 

[bilby]

It is stupidly hot and humid here at the moment, even by the usual standard of Brisbane in December.

We have been having short but intense rainstorms, causing flash flooding - the rivers and creeks aren't overflowing, but the storm drains can't take the water away as fast as it falls out of the sky.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-12-01/flooding-in-parts-of-brisbane/104669996

 

[pood]

Check that, Howe had 5 goals in 9 international games so total goals is 1,076.

 

[pood]

Jagr is a beast of longevity. Another Bobby Hull. Not that Howe didn't play long either.

I'm assuming Jagr has more international tournament games as pros didn't do the Olympics for most of Gretzky's career. Also, Jagr's getting credit for non-NHL pro goals. Regardless, Jagr is a rare talent. Unlike Kevin Stevens he was a HoF'er and played with Lemieux, not merely just a benefactor of Lemieux.

Actually, international tournament games started in 1972 with the great classic Summit Series, so Gretzky’s entire career would have involved a lot of international games. International games include not just Olympics. Gretzky’s performance in the 1987 Canada Cup is the stuff of legend, as is Esposito’s performance in the 1972 Summit Series against the Soviets. Espo is also somewhere in the top ten of all-time.greats. I think I have been watching hockey since I was 7 years old.