Partly defending Pascal's Wager? (only one popular eternal hell for non-believers)

[skepticalbip]

Is the Qur'an compatible with the New Testament? I would say not.

Of course not, the New Testament is a disgraceful corruption of the true Book.

The true book? What do you mean?

The Book of Mormon maybe??

 

[skepticalbip]

..

There has been a lot of apologists in the last couple decades trying to make Islam sound more acceptable to non-Muslims. But then there are many verses in my copy of the Quran that command Muslims to kill infidels who refuse to convert and several verses that declare that the fate of infidels will be to suffer in hell. .. try Surah 9:73 as one example.

ETA:
I could add that any Muslim who converted to Christianity to take advantage of your Pascal's Wager would be doubly cursed to hell according to the Quran, for being an apostate.

Surah 9:73 says:
O Prophet! Struggle against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be firm with them. Hell will be their home. What an evil destination!

Perhaps Christians aren't necessarily "disbelievers".... ?

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62 Quran) With Tafsir - My Islam

Read Surah Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62) with translation. Included verse by verse commentary with tafsir for those looking to learn about this ayah in detail.

myislam.org

(2:62) Whether they are the ones who believe (in the Arabian Prophet), or whether they are Jews, Christians or Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do righteous deeds – their reward is surely secure with their Lord; they need have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Christians do not believe in Mohammad as the Prophet of God, nor in Islams version of God.

According to Muslim prophecy, they will in the end times when Isa comes to recollect the faithful that can yet be saved.

But Christians accepting Jesus as a deity (which is what Christianity is about) is a ticket to hell according to Islam. "There is but one god, Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." Jesus worship stomps all over that.

Which is why Isa (Jesus) will come and preach the Qur'an to the faithful shortly before the end of all things. A necessary correction that the wise will hear and be saved. You really shoud read that book of yours, it really has all manner of interesting contents.

I have read it. It is as tedious as any other religious book I have read. And like any other religious book there is a great deal of dispute (even wars) among its adherents over what it means.

 

[FwL]

Pascal's Wager began talking about Christianity....

If you believe in Jesus/God:
Jesus/God exists - go to paradise forever
Jesus/God doesn't exist - time wasted, etc

If you don't believe in Jesus/God:
Jesus/God exists - go to hell forever
Jesus/God doesn't exist - nothing

A counter-argument is that there could be other hells depending on the god.... e.g. Islam, Mormonism, etc.

But I think in those other hells non-believers don't necessarily go there (Islam?, Mormonism) or hell isn't eternal (Jehovah Witnesses?)

A small number of Christians believe that most so-called Christians are going to hell (forever) - they can say this involves a religious "demon".... that still involves a form of Christianity...

I'd assume that the God that sends non-believers to hell would be somewhat well known in order to give people a chance - though I believe in a non-obvious God that is part of a simulation. I also believe that eternal hell (within a simulation) is impossible due to the way that simulations work - though it could last for the equivalent of a million years....

If the god who sends all unbelievers to hell is unknown then I don't think that can be factored into Pascal's Wager.

So besides in Christianity are you aware of any gods that send all non-believers to an eternal hell full of suffering?

The failure of Pascal's Wager is that it is in no way unique for Christianity. The same arguments can be used for any other number of religions.

The failure of Pascal's Wager is thinking that a person can just decide what to believe in order to hedge their bet on the afterlife, and that this is, somehow, going to get them into heaven, should Christianity turn out to be true.

 

[DBT]

A God of shallow character may only require lip service, swear loyalty/say you believe, and you are in?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The failure of Pascal's Wager is that it is in no way unique for Christianity. The same arguments can be used for any other number of religions.

What other religions say that if you're not committed to that religion you'd definitely go to hell forever?

Any religion with a punishment / reward system falls under Pascal’s fallacy, I mean Wager.

 

[Jason134]

The failure of Pascal's Wager is that it is in no way unique for Christianity. The same arguments can be used for any other number of religions.

What other religions say that if you're not committed to that religion you'd definitely go to hell forever?

Many religions emphasize commitment to their beliefs as essential for salvation, though interpretations vary widely. For example, some Muslim teachings highlight the importance of direction, like a Kaaba compass, guiding followers toward spiritual alignment and ultimate destiny.

 

[ideologyhunter]

A God of shallow character may only require lip service, swear loyalty/say you believe, and you are in?

1. 4/30/1945: Hitler repents and prays the Sinner's Prayer, including asking for forgiveness for suicide, then bites the bullet. Seconds later he's in paradise, although FDR petitions the CZC (Celestial Zoning Commish) to get Hitler assigned to Cloudy Acres, an exurb of the Heavenly City. But Adolph has achieved salvation.
2. Your grandma takes you in after your single mom has a nervous breakdown. The old lady shows you a lifetime of love and inspires you to use your talents to their fullest. She also inspires in you a love of reading, and she reads The Portable Atheist (Hitchens), which causes her to doubt all orthodox religions. She's now roasting in hell and will never not be roasting.
For God is love, etc.

 

[DBT]

Contradictions, contradictions....

9The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works. - Psalm 145

 

[excreationist]

2. Your grandma takes you in after your single mom has a nervous breakdown. The old lady shows you a lifetime of love and inspires you to use your talents to their fullest. She also inspires in you a love of reading, and she reads The Portable Atheist (Hitchens), which causes her to doubt all orthodox religions. She's now roasting in hell and will never not be roasting.

BTW this following hour long sermon is from my sisters' pastor: "My Christian Grandmother Went to Hell | Shocking Truth Revealed"

 

[DBT]

God and Satan, Carrot and Stick, believe and be rewarded or face the consequences, praise the Lord.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, as I have said many times on the subject by now (and perhaps it's on me for not just making a thread about it), Pascal's Wager is about a thought experiment.

Ask yourself the question: let's assume I invent, tomorrow, a way to make a universe-in-a-jar. Let's assume that I am smart enough to know how to make it deterministically, but not smart enough to already know what's gonna happen except in generalities associated with the rules; that I make a universe, but I don't know what's going to happen there.

Now let's assume over time I develop a way to extract some process within that universe in a jar, and re-implement it somewhere else: in a secondary simulation, or even the world where I live directly via a constructed drone body.

There is a question, and this question actually reduces to a much more sane approach to Pascal's Wager:

What ought we expect of that which we let out?

This is a hypothetical question, but one whose answer we need to actually figure out, and it is shaped exactly like "Pascal's Wager" but from the other side, and giving an actual game to wager against. Why do we need to figure it out? Because I'm going to do my damnedest to invent the universe-in-a-jar, and eventually I or a successor (or rival) will succeed!

I have made several posts offering some of the conclusions I reach on the matter already, and am interested to see if anyone else is even capable of taking it up from that perspective, from the perspective of a god rather than the perspective of a mortal, even though we are mortal in our own way.

 

[DBT]

What is the psychology of a God who hides their existence and judges who is to be saved according to what they believe on Faith?

 

[TomC]

What is the psychology of a God who hides their existence and judges who is to be saved according to what they believe on Faith?

I think that you can explain that by replacing "what they believe on Faith" with "which self appointed human spokesmen for God that they accept"
That's why I wound up an agnostic deist. I believe in God, but not the people claiming to understand or speak for God. That's just human hubris.
Tom