Police shootings -- what "Unarmed" really means

[Malintent]

They are also pretty good at it when the 'threat' isn't black. Imagine that.

While you're at it, imagine the sun rising in the west.

The police are actually less likely to shoot a black on a per-encounter basis.

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

https://www.vox.com/cards/police-brutality-shootings-us/us-police-racism

That article is nonresponsive to the point made.

The claim made is that in any single given instance, the police officer at the scene is less likely to pull the trigger if the suspect is black. Presumably due to historic community backlash.

The popularly quoted statistics speak to national averages of shootings being disproportionate to the national average population of black people... and pirates or whatever.

There are two ways to interpret this... going down a level and looking at prison population, and then seeing that a disproportionately higher number of WHITE people are shot as compared to those convicted of crimes resulting in jail time.... and then you have to go further down the chain to say that THOSE statistics are themselves skewed due to unequal treatment in the judicial system... OR, you could say black people commit more violent crime and proportionately still get shot less... by way of interpretation of the statistics.

I'm not claiming I know that either is the case. I can only speak to my personal experiences... which have been pretty consistently negative as a white person that grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood in the 70's and 80's. I was a discriminated against minority. Black people were basically in charge at every power level that mattered to a kid and they all pretty much hated my skin.
So if I sound racist if I say that black people are fare more likely to act threatening towards a white guy (even or especially a cop) it is only because it is fucking true.. I lived it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That is non-responsive to what I wrote. You are mischaracterizing what "unarmed" means.
No, I think just not blasting away because they are scared would work wonders. Perhaps Tamir Rice would be alive today.

You are still avoiding that your cited article included "running from the police" as a reason for legitimate shooting even after it has been pointed out a number of times. I wonder why.

You were objecting to shooting the guy with the fake bomb.

No, I did not. Here is the relevant quote from what I posted "Now, in that case, the situation may have prevented any reasonable effort to ascertain the true facts. "

Then you shouldn't have objected in the first place.

In practice it's usually impossible for the cops to figure out if the weapon is real or not in the time available to make a decision.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They are also pretty good at it when the 'threat' isn't black. Imagine that.

While you're at it, imagine the sun rising in the west.

The police are actually less likely to shoot a black on a per-encounter basis.

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

https://www.vox.com/cards/police-brutality-shootings-us/us-police-racism

Please note that I said "on a per-encounter basis". That piece of crap ignored the fact that blacks engage in more crime.

 

[ronburgundy]

They are also pretty good at it when the 'threat' isn't black. Imagine that.

While you're at it, imagine the sun rising in the west.

The police are actually less likely to shoot a black on a per-encounter basis.

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

https://www.vox.com/cards/police-brutality-shootings-us/us-police-racism

Your link shows that blacks are more likely to get shot, but not more likely to get shot "on a per-encounter basis".

IOW, if blacks get shot by cops at 2.5 times the rate as whites, but are 3 or more times as likely to have an encounter with the cops, then that would make them actually less likely than whites the get shop per encounter with the cops.

That said, one must be specific as to what types of "encounters" are relevant to these stats. Should a person expect to be shot when they report a crime committed against them, or when a cop asks them if they witnessed a crime? Obviously not.

90% of shootings by cops involve and armed suspect being approached related to a crime, and the other 10% involve unarmed suspects, mostly suspected of violent crime.
So, a relevant FBI stat is the % of black people among all the people arrested for either a violent crime or illegal possession of a weapon, which is 39%. Your link says that 31% of suspects shops by cops are black. Since 39 is higher than 31, that implies that when the cops approach armed suspects and/or suspects of violent crimes that typical entail weapons, they are less likely to shoot when the suspect is black.

OTOH, it could still be the case that if you are not actually armed or attacking the cops in any way, that being black does increase your odds of getting shot. I don't know of good numbers about that specific scenario. These scenarios are clearly the least justified shootings where the suspect's actual behavior is less of a factor and cop's presumptions are bigger determination. So, it could be the case that racial bias does play a bigger role there, and yet because they are the small % of all shootings, it doesn't change the fact that blacks are overall less likely to get shot when being suspected of a violent crime.

 

[ronburgundy]

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

https://www.vox.com/cards/police-brutality-shootings-us/us-police-racism

Please note that I said "on a per-encounter basis". That piece of crap ignored the fact that blacks engage in more crime.

True, but overall police shooting stats are not relevant to the small % of police shootings in question where the suspect is not armed or posing a realistic threat.
As I said in my post above, you could be correct (and I supplied the actual stats to support it), and yet it could also be true that suspects that are unarmed and not rationally a threat are more likely to get shot by cops if they are black.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

http://lawofficer.com/exclusive/unarmed/

What many of you can't seem to understand: "unarmed" doesn't mean doesn't look like a threat. (Note that simulated or fake weapons are considered "unarmed".)

Deja Vu.

 

[laughing dog]

No, I did not. Here is the relevant quote from what I posted "Now, in that case, the situation may have prevented any reasonable effort to ascertain the true facts. "

Then you shouldn't have objected in the first place.

I didn't object in the first place to that encounter. You are literally making stuff up to justify your (mistaken) position.

In practice it's usually impossible for the cops to figure out if the weapon is real or not in the time available to make a decision.

Once again, you are literally making stuff up to justify your position.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

https://www.vox.com/cards/police-brutality-shootings-us/us-police-racism

Please note that I said "on a per-encounter basis". That piece of crap ignored the fact that blacks engage in more crime.

True, but overall police shooting stats are not relevant to the small % of police shootings in question where the suspect is not armed or posing a realistic threat.
As I said in my post above, you could be correct (and I supplied the actual stats to support it), and yet it could also be true that suspects that are unarmed and not rationally a threat are more likely to get shot by cops if they are black.

Most of those unarmed cases fall into one of two categories:

1) Attacking the cops.

2) Fake/simulated weapons.

I have a hard time counting the latter as "unarmed". The police will normally assume that a weapon that appears real is. (Note that the same standards apply to self-defense shootings, the police don't get any special treatment in this.)

 

[ronburgundy]

True, but overall police shooting stats are not relevant to the small % of police shootings in question where the suspect is not armed or posing a realistic threat.
As I said in my post above, you could be correct (and I supplied the actual stats to support it), and yet it could also be true that suspects that are unarmed and not rationally a threat are more likely to get shot by cops if they are black.

Most of those unarmed cases fall into one of two categories:

1) Attacking the cops.

Few of those cases entail "attacking" that warrants a lethal response.

2) Fake/simulated weapons.

I have a hard time counting the latter as "unarmed". The police will normally assume that a weapon that appears real is. (Note that the same standards apply to self-defense shootings, the police don't get any special treatment in this.)

Every boy I knew played with fake guns that looked quite real. Would it have been reasonable if we were all shot? Should every boy scout carrying a knife or hunter carrying a gun be shot on sight? Millions of whites legally carry guns, should they all be shot on sight? The objectively probability that a child holding a gun-like object is actually holding real gun is probably less than 0.01% (IOW, for every kid with a real gun there are 10,000 with either a toy gun or an object that "appears to be a gun". If cops cannot be expected to bother to determine if child holding a weapon is real, they certainly cannot be excepted to determine whether any person carrying a knife or gun is doing so legally or what they intent to do with it.

Also, your point is irrelevant to mine. If this group of shooting victims are more likely to be shot per encounter, when they are black, then it would support that racism determines whether cops choose to use lethal force, either against an unarmed "attacking" person or prior to determining whether the weapon is real or the person intends to use it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Every boy I knew played with fake guns that looked quite real. Would it have been reasonable if we were all shot? Should every boy scout carrying a knife or hunter carrying a gun be shot on sight? Millions of whites legally carry guns, should they all be shot on sight? The objectively probability that a child holding a gun-like object is actually holding real gun is probably less than 0.01% (IOW, for every kid with a real gun there are 10,000 with either a toy gun or an object that "appears to be a gun". If cops cannot be expected to bother to determine if child holding a weapon is real, they certainly cannot be excepted to determine whether any person carrying a knife or gun is doing so legally or what they intent to do with it.

Also, your point is irrelevant to mine. If this group of shooting victims are more likely to be shot per encounter, when they are black, then it would support that racism determines whether cops choose to use lethal force, either against an unarmed "attacking" person or prior to determining whether the weapon is real or the person intends to use it.

Maybe things have changed but when I was growing up nobody would mistake kids' toys for real guns.