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Port strike and automation

Unions basically exist only where there is minimal if any ability to have non-union competition.
So?
If unions don't destroy businesses why have virtually all union businesses that have to compete with non-union businesses been destroyed?
Cosco (pro union) seems to compete very well with Wal Mart (no union). But that being said, the real issue is that all business everywhere has not become unionized. And that is because of ignorance. There are still workers out there who do not know their real worth who would rather take any job than no job at all.
 
Labor share of GDP is 69%, so capital gets 31% share. If everyone got a 45% pay raise then capital share would be 0.

If there was no capital then labor would get something like $500/year (the approximate amount produced per capita in counties with almost no capital investment).

What is the appropriate share for capital given that the current level makes labor something like 150 times more productive, and labor gets something like 100x higher wages compared to not having access to that capital?
If you want to talk about the importance of capital, I agree. But unions have nothing at all to do with this.

In order to raise capital, everyone needs to save more and spend less. No one saves anymore because interest is low and inflation is high. That is controlled more by the fed than the union workers.
 
The thing is a strike isn't about withholding their labor.
Yes, it is. That's the complete and accurate definition of a strike.
No. Withholding your labor would be quitting and going to work for somebody else.

Unions are about denying any labor to a business. Monopoly power. It's wrong when done by business, it's wrong when done by labor.
It is wrong but it is reality. Management does whatever it can to make more profit (including monopolizing) so labor needs to have the same tools too.

"If capitalism is fair then unionism must be. If men and women have a right to capitalize their ideas and the resources of their country, then that implies the right of men and women to capitalize their labor" Frank Lloyd Wright
 
Of course they don't match up. I'm just saying monopoly power is wrong, whether by union or by business.
Of course it is wrong but it is the reality of human behavior. All human behavior including the ones who run companies. So the only solution is to arm both sides equally.
 
when a union controls a whole market where are you going to find them?
[scabs]

Well, if the workers all chose to join (and remain in) the union, rather than to take scab jobs, I guess you need as an employer to think hard about why that is, and what inspires such loyalty to the union rather than to the employer.
What you don't understand is that the optimum outcome for the people in the union is not the same as the overall interests of business and the workers.

The members of a union will get maximum income if they slowly destroy the company over the period they are working.
That's not happening with Cosco. https://www.google.com/finance/quote/COST:NASDAQ?hl=en&window=MAX&comparison=NYSE:WMT
 
I agree. All those people need raises.
Only those? No! everyone should get a raise so that $200K becomes new median.
So prepare for $700k professors and $2mil/year airline pilots and $120K Walmart cashiers.
Everyone except congressmen and billionaires. They do not deserve a raise.
 
You support the man at the head of the political party that has opposed organized labor for over a century. You support the candidate that is favored by the richest individual person and richest corporations and oligarchs in the world. Why? They support Trump because they expect him to break the government so badly that they can take over. How is that going to benefit us?
 
I agree. All those people need raises.
Only those? No! everyone should get a raise so that $200K becomes new median.
So prepare for $700k professors and $2mil/year airline pilots and $120K Walmart cashiers.
Everyone except congressmen and billionaires. They do not deserve a raise.
Well, billionaires set their salaries themselves. And thanks to corruption, congressmen can probably work with no salaries at all.
 
You "changed" no units because you simply omitted them.
Nope. I compared more people to fewer people.
Loren Pechtel said:
Go back through this and put units on your terms.
Don’t need to, since it is a ratio,
Loren Pechte said:
Barbos was wrong. But that doesn't make your rebuttal correct.
No, the fact the number of people working did not decline made it correct.
You haven't established that you're correct. You're still evading the fundamental issue that you compared a percentage to a value.

More people working simply has no bearing on what percent of GDP goes to labor.

The sky is blue, therefore you are wrong!
 
Unions basically exist only where there is minimal if any ability to have non-union competition.
So?
If unions don't destroy businesses why have virtually all union businesses that have to compete with non-union businesses been destroyed?
Cosco (pro union) seems to compete very well with Wal Mart (no union). But that being said, the real issue is that all business everywhere has not become unionized. And that is because of ignorance. There are still workers out there who do not know their real worth who would rather take any job than no job at all.
Costco is hardly a competitor of WalMart.

And if all businesses are unionized, where does that leave the sole proprietor??

And knowing you have good worth is a strong reason not to be in a union. A union pretty much says seniority is it, workers are interchangeable cogs. Those of us who do not consider ourselves cogs do not like that. In a competitive marketplace the superior worker would be better off not in a union.
 
You "changed" no units because you simply omitted them.
Nope. I compared more people to fewer people.
Loren Pechtel said:
Go back through this and put units on your terms.
Don’t need to, since it is a ratio,
Loren Pechte said:
Barbos was wrong. But that doesn't make your rebuttal correct.
No, the fact the number of people working did not decline made it correct.
You haven't established that you're correct. You're still evading the fundamental issue that you compared a percentage to a value.
Your first sentence is false. Your second sentence is a straw man.
Loren Pechtel said:
More people working simply has no bearing on what percent of GDP goes to labor.
As a general statement, that is false. It may have a bearing in some cases, but it is a single factor.
 
In order to raise capital, everyone needs to save more and spend less. No one saves anymore because interest is low and inflation is high. That is controlled more by the fed than the union workers.
In the long run interest will be a bit more than inflation. Expect about 3% more for no-risk interest assuming no transaction costs. (Do not expect this from your bank--there are most definitely transaction costs! Without transaction costs there would be no bank.) The marketplace decides this, not the Fed, not the unions.

If they have enough power the unions can and do cause inflation. They can only benefit by continuing to cause inflation which will hurt everyone. If they quit causing inflation they return to where they were.
 
Of course they don't match up. I'm just saying monopoly power is wrong, whether by union or by business.
Of course it is wrong but it is the reality of human behavior. All human behavior including the ones who run companies. So the only solution is to arm both sides equally.
I'm not interested in being caught in the crossfire.
 
Costco is hardly a competitor of WalMart.

And if all businesses are unionized, where does that leave the sole proprietor??

And knowing you have good worth is a strong reason not to be in a union. A union pretty much says seniority is it, workers are interchangeable cogs. Those of us who do not consider ourselves cogs do not like that. In a competitive marketplace the superior worker would be better off not in a union.
Costco is exactly what Sam's Club is. Take the signage down and you would never know if you were in Sam's Club or Costco.

Sole proprietors would never be unionized due to lack of any incentive. What benefit exists to unionize 1 or 2 employees against management that is in early stages of capitalism? None whatsoever. It is only the firms in late stage capitalism who have market monopoly and ability to pay employee's what they should receive in the same marketplace.

I do agree with you in a competitive marketplace the superior worker is probably better off non union but what has that got to do with not arming unions? If you have ability, can accept some risk, and know what you are worth, you should work for a smaller proprietor or don't become union. Some of those early non union workers end up extremely well off due to their stock options as early employees of a successful start up.
 
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If they have enough power the unions can and do cause inflation. They can only benefit by continuing to cause inflation which will hurt everyone. If they quit causing inflation they return to where they were.
You are confusing inflation with price. Price is when a CEO, or a union, or a school teacher asks (and gets) higher wages. Price is also when bit coin starts at $1 and goes to $70k. That is NOT inflation. It is NOT inflation because those prices have a chance and (according to Buffet in the case of bit coin) a certainty of also going down again after market exuberance is lost.

Inflation OTOH is the printing of more money in the same pool which dilutes its ability to purchase the same amount of goods. The government legally counterfeits money which causes each existing dollar to be worth less. It may take time for the dilution effect to show up as a higher priced good, but the actual inflation of the balloon happens at the fed level. The fed is solely responsible for inflation. The private entity fed not only counterfeits our currency without going to jail (as you and I would). But then they successfully convince deluded and ignorant people like yourself that inflation is the fault of CEO's, unions, and school teachers..... which it is NOT.
 
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Of course they don't match up. I'm just saying monopoly power is wrong, whether by union or by business.
Of course it is wrong but it is the reality of human behavior. All human behavior including the ones who run companies. So the only solution is to arm both sides equally.
I'm not interested in being caught in the crossfire.
As individual consumers and producers we are all in the crossfire of free market capitalism. Every decision made affects price which then again affects how someone else reacts. The only way NOT to be in the crossfire is to live on a remote island and never buy anything or make any money.
 
In order to raise capital, everyone needs to save more and spend less. No one saves anymore because interest is low and inflation is high. That is controlled more by the fed than the union workers.
In the long run interest will be a bit more than inflation. Expect about 3% more for no-risk interest assuming no transaction costs. (Do not expect this from your bank--there are most definitely transaction costs! Without transaction costs there would be no bank.) The marketplace decides this, not the Fed, not the unions.

If they have enough power the unions can and do cause inflation. They can only benefit by continuing to cause inflation which will hurt everyone. If they quit causing inflation they return to where they were.
I'm willing to manage a small amount of inflation so that people can work for a living.
Of course they don't match up. I'm just saying monopoly power is wrong, whether by union or by business.
Of course it is wrong but it is the reality of human behavior. All human behavior including the ones who run companies. So the only solution is to arm both sides equally.
I'm not interested in being caught in the crossfire.
Seeing we don't live in a Utopia, I'm not certain how else it can be.
 
As individual consumers and producers we are all in the crossfire of free market capitalism. Every decision made affects price which then again affects how someone else reacts. The only way NOT to be in the crossfire is to live on a remote island and never buy anything or make any money.
What the fuck is this supposed to mean? How much of a binary bitch do you want to be?
 
In my opinion, BOTH sides of this argument have merit.

What is often overlooked, I think, is the largish share taken by highly-paid labor rather than "capital."
"Taken"? That term would seem to imply that the wealth in question wasn't produced by the highly-paid labor.

Oh criminy! You seize on an arbitrary often-neutral verb and pretend that I am deliberately (and almost surreptitiously!) invoking some sort of morality. I should expect better from you.
The heck are you on about? I pretended nothing; I implied nothing about it being deliberate or surreptitious; and I addressed your factual claim, so if "taken" doesn't invoke any sort of morality then neither did my response. To all appearances, you said "taken" because that's a fixture in discussions of the topic and you were simply using typical wording. And to all appearances, "taken" became a fixture in discussions of the topic because people repeat the arguments they personally find convincing, and "taken" appeals to leftists' pattern-matching circuits, so by Darwinian natural selection, versions of their arguments that use that terminology become more common than competing terminology.

The point is that leftist arguments are stupid, so they don't survive in the marketplace of ideas by being well-reasoned, but by triggering the pattern-matching circuits hard-wired into our brains by a million years of hunting and gathering. We are all natural-born zero-sum-game economic thinkers, because for 99% of our time on earth we lived in a zero-sum-game economy where nobody produced his own food and every deer anyone killed was a deer taken from the shared supply. Keeping in mind that ten thousand years ago we started farming and it rendered our economic intuition obsolete, and reminding ourselves that we therefore need to draw conclusions by reasoning instead of by intuition, takes effort. I'm pointing out that you're letting your brain be colonized by a meme that has evolved to parasitize brains by taking advantage of their subconscious zero-sum-game intuitions, even though your conscious mind knows economics is not a zero-sum game.

Income and wealth inequality are already major problems, and continues to rise.
...
(Source: nih.gov)

And here's that graph you post every time "GINI" hits the filter.
No, only every time somebody claims inequality is increasing.

Just to return to the topic, is it your claim that income or wealth inequality is NOT a major source of emotional stress and social unrest in the U.S.?
Not claiming any such thing. Sure, people are often resentful of others having more. (This might be due to all those zero-sum-game intuitions.) But I don't see why every sort of emotional stress should necessarily be catered to in policy decisions. I'm not some Utilitarian who thinks every sort of happiness and unhappiness is automatically created equal -- that way lies deducing that the problem with Roman gladiatorial fights was they weren't televised to a million viewers. Wanting other people to be poorer is spiteful and I'm not a fan of rewarding spite. In the fifties and sixties racial integration was a major source of emotional stress and social unrest in the U.S. That wasn't a good reason to forego integration in order to cater to prejudice.

Rightly or wrongly, workers resent when they are replaced by robots owned by the boss.
That this makes the workers poorer is a real problem it's rational for them to want addressed and it's rational for policy-makers to address. That it makes the boss richer is not a real problem.

The U.S. GINI is much higher than the GINI of all Western European countries: Is it your claim that this is meaningless because almost everyone (except you) uses a flawed definition of GINI?
Hey, the NIH is using the unflawed definition too.

Within-country Gini is not a measure of inequality. It's a measure of street-address: it quantifies the degree to which rich people and poor people live close to each other. That may well influence how much emotional stress and social unrest they experience, but it doesn't influence how unequal they are. If you want to reduce the within-America Gini index, it's straightforward: elect Donald Trump. When he deports ten million illegal aliens it will make our Gini index go down. But it will not make anyone any less unequal.
 
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Costco is hardly a competitor of WalMart.

And if all businesses are unionized, where does that leave the sole proprietor??

And knowing you have good worth is a strong reason not to be in a union. A union pretty much says seniority is it, workers are interchangeable cogs. Those of us who do not consider ourselves cogs do not like that. In a competitive marketplace the superior worker would be better off not in a union.
Costco is exactly what Sam's Club is. Take the signage down and you would never know if you were in Sam's Club or Costco.
Costco is what Sam's Club wants to be. A Costco membership costs more than a Sam's Club membership--but I have the former and not the latter.

Sole proprietors would never be unionized due to lack of any incentive. What benefit exists to unionize 1 or 2 employees against management that is in early stages of capitalism? None whatsoever. It is only the firms in late stage capitalism who have market monopoly and ability to pay employee's what they should receive in the same marketplace.
You miss the point. If capital is exploiting labor what's a one man shop? A person exploiting himself? It makes no sense.

I do agree with you in a competitive marketplace the superior worker is probably better off non union but what has that got to do with not arming unions? If you have ability, can accept some risk, and know what you are worth, you should work for a smaller proprietor or don't become union. Some of those early non union workers end up extremely well off due to their stock options as early employees of a successful start up.
And said smaller company will eat the big one for lunch. That's what's become of US unions--they pretty much only persist in situations where newcomers can't eat the existing ones.
 
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