President Obama: Appeaser-in-Chief

[ksen]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/w...russia-ukraine-moves-brazen-assault.html?_r=0

“Now, Ukraine needs more than words,” he said. “NATO needs to make concrete commitments to help Ukraine modernize and strengthen its security forces.”

Rejecting Mr. Putin’s frequent denials of intervention in Ukraine and his assertion that the Russian presence there is part of a humanitarian or peacekeeping mission, Mr. Obama said it was clear that Moscow was responsible for the escalation of tensions there.

“It was not the government in Kiev that destabilized eastern Ukraine; it’s been the pro-Russian separatists who are encouraged by Russia, financed by Russia, trained by Russia, supplied by Russia and armed by Russia,” he said. “These are the facts. They are provable. They are not subject to dispute.”

“The defense of Tallinn and Riga and Vilnius is just as important as the defense of Berlin and Paris and London,” Mr. Obama said Wednesday, invoking the founding principle of collective defense that undergirds NATO. “An attack on one is an attack on all, and so if, in such a moment, you ever ask again, ‘Who’ll come to help?’ you’ll know the answer: the NATO alliance, including the armed forces of the United States of America.

max must be on vacation or I'm sure he would have posted this along with some articles from newsmax or wherever about how Obama is being weak and wrong.

 

[untermensche]

A move towards war with Russia is nothing to crow about.

Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

 

[dystopian]

A move towards war with Russia is nothing to crow about.

Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

And what move toward war would that be? Strengthening nato's presence in a region with a very similar demographic situation to the one repeatedly used by the Russians as an excuse to annex parts of others countries and otherwise destabilize them? That's not a move toward war, that's shoring up one's defenses when faced with a dictator with a proven track record of starting wars and not giving a fuck.

 

[untermensche]

A move towards war with Russia is nothing to crow about.

Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

And what move toward war would that be? Strengthening nato's presence in a region with a very similar demographic situation to the one repeatedly used by the Russians as an excuse to annex parts of others countries and otherwise destabilize them? That's not a move toward war, that's shoring up one's defenses when faced with a dictator with a proven track record of starting wars and not giving a fuck.

What is NATO's involvement?

What NATO country is it defending?

 

[dystopian]

And what move toward war would that be? Strengthening nato's presence in a region with a very similar demographic situation to the one repeatedly used by the Russians as an excuse to annex parts of others countries and otherwise destabilize them? That's not a move toward war, that's shoring up one's defenses when faced with a dictator with a proven track record of starting wars and not giving a fuck.

What is NATO's involvement?

What NATO country is it defending?

Is this a serious question? The post you were responding to as "being a move toward war" mentions the importance of the Baltic states (members of NATO); which a number of EU NATO states (mine included) are currently creating a rapid reaction force for. These Baltic states are in a similar demographic position as the Ukraine and Georgia; having large numbers of Russian speaking citizens; and at every step of the way, Russia has justified its actions by saying they're protecting the interests of ethnic Russians. It makes perfect sense that the Baltic states (which again, are members of NATO) are wary of Russia for that reason alone (even ignoring Russia's past involvement with them).

So again, NATO isn't making moves toward war, it's shoring up its defenses against an aggressively expanding neighbor. The only one making moves toward war is Putin.

 

[dx713]

Agreed,
But there's still a risk that will end in a war if Putin doesn't understand that "line in the sand" is real this time.

Russia as recently two of those crossed:
- Assad (supported by Russia) gasing it's own citizens to a lot of crying but nothing more.
- NATO did assure Ukraine it should try non-nuclear proliferation and give all its old USSR nuclear warhead back to Russia, and "don't worry about your protection, we will protect you even if you're not really a NATO member". Then, the active involvement of Russian troops in Ukraine is proven, and NATO doesn't do more than ask for a few more economic sanctions.

I'm not saying that to advocate sending troops in Ukraine, I understand a war with Russia is a very bad idea (and war itself is a very bad idea to start with). But you have to admit all this hasn't shown great resolve to Putin. I understand why some historians are drawing a parallel with the '38-39 winter.

Hopefully, the presence of French, German, Dutch, and other western democracies troops in this rapid reaction force will get Putin to back down if our politicians manage to use it timely, understanding that a line that is directly defended with blood from our countries, and involving official members of NATO, is a real do-not-cross line, but what if he thinks it's yet another bluff? The situation might end very uncomfortable very fast...

 

[thief of fire]

Thankfully not all westerners are complete idiots.


Dutch Intellectuals Apologize to Putin for Lies on MH17, Syria, Ukraine...

Dear Mr. President Putin,

Please accept our apologies on behalf of a great many people here in the Netherlands for our Government and our Media. The facts concerning MH17 are twisted to defame you and your country.

We are powerless onlookers, as we witness how the Western Nations, led by the United States, accuse Russia of crimes they commit themselves more than anybody else. We reject the double standards that are used for Russia and the West. In our societies, sufficient evidence is required for a conviction. The way you and your Nation are convicted for 'crimes' without evidence, is ruthless and despicable.

You have saved us from a conflict in Syria that could have escalated into a World War. The mass killing of innocent Syrian civilians through gassing by ‘Al-*‐Qaeda’ terrorists, trained and armed by the US and paid for by Saudi Arabia, was blamed on Assad. In doing so, the West hoped public opinion would turn against Assad, paving the way for an attack on Syria.

 

[Togo]

And what move toward war would that be? Strengthening nato's presence in a region with a very similar demographic situation to the one repeatedly used by the Russians as an excuse to annex parts of others countries and otherwise destabilize them? That's not a move toward war, that's shoring up one's defenses when faced with a dictator with a proven track record of starting wars and not giving a fuck.

What is NATO's involvement?

It made an explicit treaty commitment to Ukraine to defend it against it's more powerful neighbours if they gave up their nukes.

 

[thief of fire]

Agreed,
But there's still a risk that will end in a war if Putin doesn't understand that "line in the sand" is real this time.

Russia as recently two of those crossed:
- Assad (supported by Russia) gasing it's own citizens to a lot of crying but nothing more.

How is it that you are so ignorant?? Time to wake up for you. Sleeping time is over.
The Collapsing Syria-Sarin Case

It's time for you to stop posting bullshit. Don't you think?

NYT Backs Off Its Syria-Sarin Analysis
These claims have long been known to be complete bullshit. Can you explain why you want to promote bullshit, and encourage war based on complete lies?
Do you like seeing people die based on lies?

 

[Funkytrip]

Thankfully not all westerners are complete idiots.


Dutch Intellectuals Apologize to Putin for Lies on MH17, Syria, Ukraine...

Dear Mr. President Putin,

Please accept our apologies on behalf of a great many people here in the Netherlands for our Government and our Media. The facts concerning MH17 are twisted to defame you and your country.

We are powerless onlookers, as we witness how the Western Nations, led by the United States, accuse Russia of crimes they commit themselves more than anybody else. We reject the double standards that are used for Russia and the West. In our societies, sufficient evidence is required for a conviction. The way you and your Nation are convicted for 'crimes' without evidence, is ruthless and despicable.

You have saved us from a conflict in Syria that could have escalated into a World War. The mass killing of innocent Syrian civilians through gassing by ‘Al-*‐Qaeda’ terrorists, trained and armed by the US and paid for by Saudi Arabia, was blamed on Assad. In doing so, the West hoped public opinion would turn against Assad, paving the way for an attack on Syria.

This letter has never been written by Cees Hamelink nor signed. it even states that Russia 'did not annex the Krim'. Cannot really take something like that seriously. the idiots are those actually believing the letter.

 

[thief of fire]

I'm not saying that to advocate sending troops in Ukraine, .

You don't want to support the neo Nazi's ??? Why not? What do you have against Neo Nazis's?

 

[thief of fire]

Thankfully not all westerners are complete idiots.


Dutch Intellectuals Apologize to Putin for Lies on MH17, Syria, Ukraine...

This letter has never been written by Cees Hamelink nor signed. it even states that Russia 'did not annex the Krim'. Cannot really take something like that seriously. the idiots are those actually believing the letter.

<edit>Russia did not annex Crimea. Russia had up to 25,000 troops already in Crimea, and a lease on the naval bases till 2040. A refferendum was held. <edit>
I notice you provide no evidence....but that's ok...<edit>After all you can sit comfortably at home while others die

 

[Funkytrip]

This letter has never been written by Cees Hamelink nor signed. it even states that Russia 'did not annex the Krim'. Cannot really take something like that seriously. the idiots are those actually believing the letter.

<edit>Russia did not annex Crimea. Russia had up to 25,000 troops already in Crimea, and a lease on the naval bases till 2040. A refferendum was held. <edit>
I notice you provide no evidence....but that's ok...<edit> After all you can sit comfortably at home while others die

Doesn't matter. The letter was faked into coming from a well known professor which was not the case. Wonder why it was so.

Furthermore, I don't take sides. I just hate lies.

Krim was part of Ukraine. Now it's part of Russia. Whether the Krim should have belonged to Russia in the first place is another story. Historically it can very well be the case. But last year it was part of Ukraine and now it's part of Russia. Fact.

 

[thief of fire]

Krim was part of Ukraine. Now it's part of Russia. Whether the Krim should have belonged to Russia in the first place is another story. Historically it can very well be the case.

Not very well. <edit>.

But last year it was part of Ukraine and now it's part of Russia. Fact.

So you want to force them to accept an illegitimate governemt ruled by neo nazi's who ousted a democratically elected government in a violent coup, backed by the Washington?
Funny how you left that part out isn't it? Get honest.

 

[dystopian]

Thankfully not all westerners are complete idiots.


Dutch Intellectuals Apologize to Putin for Lies on MH17, Syria, Ukraine...

Dear Mr. President Putin,

Please accept our apologies on behalf of a great many people here in the Netherlands for our Government and our Media. The facts concerning MH17 are twisted to defame you and your country.

We are powerless onlookers, as we witness how the Western Nations, led by the United States, accuse Russia of crimes they commit themselves more than anybody else. We reject the double standards that are used for Russia and the West. In our societies, sufficient evidence is required for a conviction. The way you and your Nation are convicted for 'crimes' without evidence, is ruthless and despicable.

You have saved us from a conflict in Syria that could have escalated into a World War. The mass killing of innocent Syrian civilians through gassing by ‘Al-*‐Qaeda’ terrorists, trained and armed by the US and paid for by Saudi Arabia, was blamed on Assad. In doing so, the West hoped public opinion would turn against Assad, paving the way for an attack on Syria.

This is nonsense. The sites that have re-posted that letter (included the one you link to) claim it was written by professor Cees Hamelink; HOWEVER, this is blatantly not true and has been denied by the people who originally wrote the letter and has been denied by Hamelink himself. Furthermore, there is no evidence presented *anywhere* that it was signed by *any* dutch intellectuals. The letter was written by a group known as 'De Ommekeer'; which based on their (dutch) website, consists of a couple of fringe nutters with poorly defined anti-government views.

These people do *not* represent either Dutch intellectuals *or* the Dutch public at large.

 

[thief of fire]

This is nonsense.
.

Knowing your penchant for obsequiously supporting America at every opportunity, it's curious that you refuse to provide a source.

 

[dystopian]

So you want to force them to accept an illegitimate governemt ruled by neo nazi's who ousted a democratically elected government in a violent coup, backed by the Washington?
Funny how you left that part out isn't it? Get honest.

Ignoring the fact that 1) Yanukovich was democratically *voted* out by parliament and that the only reason anyone could possibly claim this to be 'illegitimate' is because the rules at the time were such that he had to put his signature under the results, which he couldn't do because he had fled to Russia, and 2) The neo nazi's you refer to represented a minority of the government.

And even if that weren't true, who the fuck gives a shit? What right does Russia have to grab territory on the basis you're providing? Do we have the right to invade Russia because it's government is filled with ultra-nationalists who are neo-nazi's in all but name? What if next time they have elections, we suspect they tampered with the results? Will we get to invade and claim Karelia so we can give it back to Finland? Maybe we can take Siberia for ourselves? If the answer to these questions is no, then the same fucking thing applies to Russia with Crimea.

 

[dystopian]

This is nonsense.
.

Knowing your penchant for obsequiously supporting America at every opportunity, it's curious that you refuse to provide a source.

http://ommekeer-nederland.nl/brief-met-excuses-aan-president-putin/ <- quoting the dutch version of the site:

"Opmerking: Deze brief is NIET door Professor Cees Hamelink geschreven noch tot op heden door hem ondertekend! Deze brief is vele malen gecopieerd op andere websites die geen toestemming hebben gevraagd. Velen daarvan hebben professor Cees Hamelink als schrijver neergezet. Wij hebben hier geen verantwoordelijkheid voor en nemen daar afstand van."

translation:

"Note: This letter was NOT written by Professor Cees Hamelink, nor as of yet signed by him! This letter has been copied on other websites many times without permission. Many of them have posted Professor Cees Hamelink as its author. We have no responsibility for this and distance ourselves from it."

There, source given. I expect you won't pay attention to it.

Incidentally, if you think *I* of all people have a "penchant for supporting America at every opportunity", I can but laugh at how mistaken you are. I rather frequently criticize US foreign policy and aspects of its culture on this forum, as many people can attest; I just do so in a balanced fashion. The only reason you want to be able to dismiss me as someone who just blindly supports America at every opportunity, is because right now I happen to hold a position which you perceive to be driven by the US; when I couldn't care less whether or not the US agrees with me. I'd hold my position regardless of whatever they think about it.

 

[thief of fire]

Knowing your penchant for obsequiously supporting America at every opportunity, it's curious that you refuse to provide a source.

http://ommekeer-nederland.nl/brief-met-excuses-aan-president-putin/ <- quoting the dutch version of the site:

"Opmerking: Deze brief is NIET door Professor Cees Hamelink geschreven noch tot op heden door hem ondertekend! Deze brief is vele malen gecopieerd op andere websites die geen toestemming hebben gevraagd. Velen daarvan hebben professor Cees Hamelink als schrijver neergezet. Wij hebben hier geen verantwoordelijkheid voor en nemen daar afstand van."

translation:

"Note: This letter was NOT written by Professor Cees Hamelink,

You need to quote Professor Hamelink denying it. Which...strangely you have refused to do. But it is reavealing that you accept that to allow yourself to keep up your slavish views.

There, source given. I expect you won't pay attention to it.

See above.

I just do so in a balanced fashion.

Er..yes...people who do things in a balanced fashion usually are their own witnesses. But i doubt you really think you are balanced (except in the Fox News definition)

 

[Jayjay]

Thankfully not all westerners are complete idiots.


Dutch Intellectuals Apologize to Putin for Lies on MH17, Syria, Ukraine...

Dear Mr. President Putin,

Please accept our apologies on behalf of a great many people here in the Netherlands for our Government and our Media. The facts concerning MH17 are twisted to defame you and your country.

We are powerless onlookers, as we witness how the Western Nations, led by the United States, accuse Russia of crimes they commit themselves more than anybody else. We reject the double standards that are used for Russia and the West. In our societies, sufficient evidence is required for a conviction. The way you and your Nation are convicted for 'crimes' without evidence, is ruthless and despicable.

You have saved us from a conflict in Syria that could have escalated into a World War. The mass killing of innocent Syrian civilians through gassing by ‘Al-*‐Qaeda’ terrorists, trained and armed by the US and paid for by Saudi Arabia, was blamed on Assad. In doing so, the West hoped public opinion would turn against Assad, paving the way for an attack on Syria.

This letter was proven to be falsely attributed to a professor who had nothing to do with it. Which should have been obvious to anyone who would bother to google it or even read the letter.

EDITED TO ADD: Looks like Funkytrip beat me to it.

EDITED TO ADD SOME MORE: And dystopian.