Presidential vapor in Hiroshima....

[arkirk]

The President just made another of his vaprous bullshit speeches in Hiroshima. It had all the usual bells and whistles of a hypocritical Presidential speech used to re-justify the the gross violence we as a nation had engaged in at that location and then obtusely suggested he was interested in a world without nuclear weapons. He has a trillion dollar nuclear weapons upgrade working at home while he goes abroad with still another distortion of his actual position. Some have said his speech was brilliant, but a number of the nuclear war survivors who were hearing it felt while it sounded nice, the actual actions of this president's administration were nonetheless disappointing.

The classic political hypocrisy....keep a stockpile of thousands of warhead while moralizing to the rest of the world, with no intention along the lines of the speech. Also, there was NO APOLOGY FOR THE LITTLE MATTER OF A NUCLEAR ATTACK ON A CIVILIAN POPULATION. Obama is the drone president, the deportation president, the banker's president, and just like his pal, Hillary, the military industrial president. Disappointment is not a strong enough word to describe Obama. He is a betrayer and, like his pal Hillary, a liar as to his true intentions, saying whatever will placate the audience he is speaking to.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

War is a bitch.

 

[Sarpedon]

When the Emperor of Japan goes to Nanking and apologizes for what was done to that city, I will ask the President of the United States to apologize for Hiroshima.

The Empire of Japan was utterly evil, worse in many ways than Nazi Germany, who's terrible cruelty and monstrous treatment of their victims well justified using the very worst weapons imaginable to stop them.

I am sick and tired of people pretending Japan was some kind of victim in World War 2. Japan committed the most heinous acts during that war and, unlike Germany, there was virtually NO resistance or dissent from their own population. When you do nothing when your country commits genocide, you are in no position to complain when you get bombed.

 

[Derec]

The President just made another of his vaprous bullshit speeches in Hiroshima. It had all the usual bells and whistles of a hypocritical Presidential speech used to re-justify the the gross violence we as a nation had engaged in at that location

Violence that was started by Imperial Japan. Violence that is neither qualitatively nor quantitatively different than other violence used in WWII just because it used one bomb per city instead of thousands.

and then obtusely suggested he was interested in a world without nuclear weapons.

That suggestion is obtuse indeed. The genie is out of the bottle, or perhaps a more apt metaphor would be out of Pandora's box. The world will not unlearn the know how of nuclear weapons barring a global catastrophe and civilization collapse due to, for example and ironically, a global nuclear war.

He has a trillion dollar nuclear weapons upgrade working at home while he goes abroad with still another distortion of his actual position.

Good. The nukes do need an upgrade.

Some have said his speech was brilliant, but a number of the nuclear war survivors who were hearing it felt while it sounded nice, the actual actions of this president's administration were nonetheless disappointing.

What were they expecting? Had he apologized that would have been disappointing!

The classic political hypocrisy....keep a stockpile of thousands of warhead while moralizing to the rest of the world, with no intention along the lines of the speech.

Nuclear weapons are dangerous. They should not be allowed to be developed by dangerous regimes, such as the Iranian theocracy. US not giving up our nukes is not hypocritical.

Also, there was NO APOLOGY FOR THE LITTLE MATTER OF A NUCLEAR ATTACK ON A CIVILIAN POPULATION.

It was not an attack on civilian population. It was an attack on a militarily significant cities which also had civilian population. Also, how are attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki different than carpet bombing campaigns used throughout the war. Should Obama apologize for bombing Tokyo as well? Or Dresden? Or Berlin?

Obama is the drone president,

Drones are a neat tool for taking out terrorists. What's wrong with using them?

We got you first motherfucker!

the deportation president,

Still too few, given that there are 12-20 million illegals in the US. He also used constitutionally iffy executive order to stop many deportations. He has also done nothing to reign in sanctuary cities that harbor illegals, including those guilty of violent crimes.

the banker's president,

In what way is Obama more friendly to bankers than other presidents in recent history?

Disappointment is not a strong enough word to describe Obama. He is a betrayer and, like his pal Hillary, a liar as to his true intentions, saying whatever will placate the audience he is speaking to.

So are you voting for Trump or what?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

One thing to keep in mind, arkirk, is that while the nuclear attack in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were dreadful and the Nagasaki bombing arguably completely unnecessary, those two individual bombing attacks stood along side the dreadful fire bombings of England, Germany, and Japan. In addition, Japan has roughly 128,383 WWII skeletons in their closet regarding their treatments of Asian civilians and Allied troops (this is ignoring Pearl Harbor). WWII was an absolute clusterfuck.

As a side note, despite being one of the larger Axis sides in WWII, they had one of the lower Civilian death tolls from direct military actions.

 

[Sarpedon]

So few? Most estimates are in excess of 10 million skeletons from China alone.

I've pointed out before that the number of people killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is about the same as the number of Chinese civilians killed in retaliation for the Doolittle raid. American leaders were perfectly justified in thinking they had to do something to end the war FAST. Sure we can say in hindsight that Japan probably would have surrendered after the USSR entered the war, but how long after? How many more would be killed during that time? Japan was still occupying large areas of China, Vietnam and Thailand, with millions of potential victims.

 

[Derec]

One thing to keep in mind, arkirk, is that while the nuclear attack in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were dreadful

They were not more dreadful than the conventional carpet bombing campaigns. If you were close enough to be seriously harmed by radiation you would have been well within the shock wave and thermal radius as well. And the fallout of such a small bomb is not that large.
Nukemap at Hiroshima

and the Nagasaki bombing arguably completely unnecessary,

Why? Japan did not surrender after the first.

those two individual bombing attacks stood along side the dreadful fire bombings of England, Germany, and Japan. In addition, Japan has roughly 128,383 WWII skeletons in their closet regarding their treatments of Asian civilians and Allied troops (this is ignoring Pearl Harbor). WWII was an absolute clusterfuck.

Right.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

A good read on the decision to surrender and the attempted coop to keep the war going:
http://www.amazon.com/Japans-Longest-Pacific-Research-Society/dp/4770028873

 

[arkirk]

When the Emperor of Japan goes to Nanking and apologizes for what was done to that city, I will ask the President of the United States to apologize for Hiroshima.

The Empire of Japan was utterly evil, worse in many ways than Nazi Germany, who's terrible cruelty and monstrous treatment of their victims well justified using the very worst weapons imaginable to stop them.

I am sick and tired of people pretending Japan was some kind of victim in World War 2. Japan committed the most heinous acts during that war and, unlike Germany, there was virtually NO resistance or dissent from their own population. When you do nothing when your country commits genocide, you are in no position to complain when you get bombed.

"Japan" is not what we are talking about here. The entire country had been firebombed from one end to the other, save a few cities set aside for the nuclear attacks. This is not making an omelette. This is killing 140,000 people, mostly civilians...many of the innocent. We live in an vacuum when it comes to international law. Killing innocent civilians is always wrong...ALWAYS. Japan is not a creature that is apt to learn. It is a collection of human beings with a wide range of opinions, moral codes, economic conditions, etc. etc. etc. Obama's drones are wrong. Pearl Harbor was wrong. Our use of nuclear weapons is wrong...according to the people who made the fucking bombs. All of these things are wrong to a humanist. Countries full of people do not "learn" through punishment with weapons of mass destruction. They only suffer.

 

[Sarpedon]

Who's talking about learning? I was talking about ending the war as quickly as possible, which is what the bombings were all about. Say what you will about American strategy during that war, the goal was consistently to end the war quickly, in the (correct) belief that would cause fewer casualties.

People ask 'why didn't we bomb Hitler?' 'Why didn't we bomb the gas chambers?' 'Why did we drop the atomic bombs?' The answer is the same: These moves were all calculated based on the (correct) idea that whatever shortens the war saves lives. Mistakes were made, but the strategy was entirely sound, and dare I say, humane, as humane as possible within the context of the war that the axis powers created.

 

[Ford]

"Japan" is not what we are talking about here. The entire country had been firebombed from one end to the other, save a few cities set aside for the nuclear attacks. This is not making an omelette. This is killing 140,000 people, mostly civilians...many of the innocent.

And yet they welcomed the American President (whom you apparently feel is the embodiment of evil) into the city destroyed by the first atomic weapon used in war. He did not offer an apology, but then, they did not ask for one.

Nor did they ask for you to be outraged in their stead.

 

[arkirk]

They were not more dreadful than the conventional carpet bombing campaigns. If you were close enough to be seriously harmed by radiation you would have been well within the shock wave and thermal radius as well. And the fallout of such a small bomb is not that large.
Nukemap at Hiroshima

and the Nagasaki bombing arguably completely unnecessary,

Why? Japan did not surrender after the first.

those two individual bombing attacks stood along side the dreadful fire bombings of England, Germany, and Japan. In addition, Japan has roughly 128,383 WWII skeletons in their closet regarding their treatments of Asian civilians and Allied troops (this is ignoring Pearl Harbor). WWII was an absolute clusterfuck.

Right.

You see, sheer numbers do not justify punishing innocent people for acts of war criminals. Lemay would bomb your mother and father if he thought it would help him in his campaign. The Emperor of Japan was trying to keep himself the emperor. That is why the delay. He was completely crazy about his royal status to the detriment of his people. He had to agree...and Truman had to agree to let him remain the emperor while his country surrendered unconditionally. That may make little sense and I frankly understand that it was irrationality on the part of a very small circle of people that kept them from rapid unconditional surrender. Both of the bombs had the distinction of being dropped on cities that had not been previously bombed...a kind of experiment in destruction by our military.

Not everybody in Japan was war crazy insane. Those who were not had to try to survive if they valued their lives. The idea that we can lump huge masses of people together and call them some sort of name and guilty by association when it really is just juxtapositional proximity is patently WRONG.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

akirk,
Going with the situation as it stood on August 1, 1945, I want to know how you would have decided what to do if you were Harry Truman.

Some things to remember:

• The Battle of Okinawa ended a few weeks ago. The fighting was extremely fierce (240,000 casualties) and the Japanese drafted schoolchildren as soldiers.
• You have the casualty estimates for the Invasion of Japan scheduled to take place on November 1, 1945 and the forces are beginning to collect.
• The Soviet Union is about to enter the war. The have not passed along any peace feelers. You are suspicious because they will not tell you what they are up to.
• The American People have been locked in a death grip with the Japanese. Both sides hate each other ferociously. This war had been predicted to be coming for decades.
• Japan shows no signs of giving up. Their propaganda is preparing civilians to fight to the death.

Remember we have a lot of historical material that tells us what the likely outcome was from several scenarios. I look forward to hearing your answer.

 

[arkirk]

"Japan" is not what we are talking about here. The entire country had been firebombed from one end to the other, save a few cities set aside for the nuclear attacks. This is not making an omelette. This is killing 140,000 people, mostly civilians...many of the innocent.

And yet they welcomed the American President (whom you apparently feel is the embodiment of evil) into the city destroyed by the first atomic weapon used in war. He did not offer an apology, but then, they did not ask for one.

Nor did they ask for you to be outraged in their stead.

Has Obama done as I have said or not? You are the one who has read of his actions in my posts and decided on that basis that I think something about Obama. I merely said what he had done and continues to do. I never called him the "embodiment of evil." What you don't seem to understand is that people surrender their morality often when they feel they have "no choice." Their feelings notwithstanding, morality in the matter of murder is in fact immutable in the face of emotion. Those were murders...140,000 of them in a flash...at the bidding of a few American Brass Hats...not all Americans.

 

[arkirk]

akirk,
Going with the situation as it stood on August 1, 1945, I want to know how you would have decided what to do if you were Harry Truman.

Some things to remember:

• The Battle of Okinawa ended a few weeks ago. The fighting was extremely fierce (240,000 casualties) and the Japanese drafted schoolchildren as soldiers.
• You have the casualty estimates for the Invasion of Japan scheduled to take place on November 1, 1945 and the forces are beginning to collect.
• The Soviet Union is about to enter the war. The have not passed along any peace feelers. You are suspicious because they will not tell you what they are up to.
• The American People have been locked in a death grip with the Japanese. Both sides hate each other ferociously. This war had been predicted to be coming for decades.
• Japan shows no signs of giving up. Their propaganda is preparing civilians to fight to the death.

Remember we have a lot of historical material that tells us what the likely outcome was from several scenarios. I look forward to hearing your answer.

We had already been guilty of massive fire bombing of their cities and surrender was imminent. This idea that the acts of a few can be used to justify the destruction of innocent people is WRONG to a humanist. I will never buy that. I understand how you feel. It is trained into us to feel that way. But it makes it no less wrong.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

He had to agree...and Truman had to agree to let him remain the emperor while his country surrendered unconditionally.

Actually Japan surrendered unconditionally, it was MacArthur that kept the Emperor in power.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

akirk,
Going with the situation as it stood on August 1, 1945, I want to know how you would have decided what to do if you were Harry Truman.

Some things to remember:

• The Battle of Okinawa ended a few weeks ago. The fighting was extremely fierce (240,000 casualties) and the Japanese drafted schoolchildren as soldiers.
• You have the casualty estimates for the Invasion of Japan scheduled to take place on November 1, 1945 and the forces are beginning to collect.
• The Soviet Union is about to enter the war. The have not passed along any peace feelers. You are suspicious because they will not tell you what they are up to.
• The American People have been locked in a death grip with the Japanese. Both sides hate each other ferociously. This war had been predicted to be coming for decades.
• Japan shows no signs of giving up. Their propaganda is preparing civilians to fight to the death.

Remember we have a lot of historical material that tells us what the likely outcome was from several scenarios. I look forward to hearing your answer.

We had already been guilty of massive fire bombing of their cities and surrender was imminent. This idea that the acts of a few can be used to justify the destruction of innocent people is WRONG to a humanist. I will never buy that. I understand how you feel. It is trained into us to feel that way. But it makes it no less wrong.

In light of your response I suggest you read the book I posted to see how events played out, so you can have a better idea of the mindset of the players on both sides of the Pacific Theater. I ask you to do so not to change your mind, but to better understand the historical context in which the decision was made.

 

[Ford]

And yet they welcomed the American President (whom you apparently feel is the embodiment of evil) into the city destroyed by the first atomic weapon used in war. He did not offer an apology, but then, they did not ask for one.

Nor did they ask for you to be outraged in their stead.

Has Obama done as I have said or not? You are the one who has read of his actions in my posts and decided on that basis that I think something about Obama. I merely said what he had done and continues to do. I never called him the "embodiment of evil." What you don't seem to understand is that people surrender their morality often when they feel they have "no choice." Their feelings notwithstanding, morality in the matter of murder is in fact immutable in the face of emotion. Those were murders...140,000 of them in a flash...at the bidding of a few American Brass Hats...not all Americans.

Since you put it in ALL CAPS, I took it to mean that you were really ticked off that he did not prostrate himself before the citizens of Hiroshima and apologize profusely for something that happened long before he was born.

Yet - again - they did not seek an apology. They never asked us to apologize for the firebombing of Tokyo, either. Or any of the other things we did in order to gain victory. Had the situations been reversed and Japan were able to attack our homeland, I'm pretty sure they'd have nuked San Francisco without a second thought. As others have pointed out, the Japanese killed millions during the war. Have they apologized?

 

[arkirk]

He had to agree...and Truman had to agree to let him remain the emperor while his country surrendered unconditionally.

Actually Japan surrendered unconditionally, it was MacArthur that kept the Emperor in power.

After three days of these imperial assholes dithering we kill another number of thousands of people with an experimental plutonium bomb in Nagasaki. It was the Emperor's dithering combined with the American Military want to drop the damned thing. It is clear there was more than just the war going on here. There were U.S. military leaders wanting to test the plutonium bomb. They were clearly on their way to surrender before the first bomb. Truman and Lemay both ushered in a new era of civilian murder...possibly an extension of what they learned from Hitler's blitzkrieg.

I am sure there were many Japanese war criminals. That is not the issue. We really need some actual movement away from nuclear holocaust. That will only come when those addicted to nuclear war powers finally are made to put down their weapons. I share some of Chomsky's skepticism that we may not be able to overcome this without another release of nuclear weapons. We seem to be married to nuclear pathos.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I share some of Chomsky's skepticism that we may not be able to overcome this without another release of nuclear weapons. We seem to be married to nuclear pathos.

Why? When drones can be programmed to go into a city and kill all the warm-blooded mammals leaving the cities intact? More nations have access to this technology.