Problems with the Heaven Concept

[sdelsolray]

Can you explain the reason why a god who likes worship would choose to make some people unable to see s/he/it? Why does the god blind people to the possibility of knowing it?

Apparently, that's the way God designed it. As Paul explains, "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

Well, alrighty, then. Question answered. Thank you.

What a sick asshole. Imagine if parents did that with their children? "Is it not my right to bear children, some of whom I bear for love and some of whom I bear to beat and force to work for my glory while they suffer privations and pain? Won't this make the favored ones love me more!?"

And you worship that? I find that to be a very disturbing reveal about you.

Not only does he worship this god, he calls it a loving god.

A particular god is a projection of the one who claims it exists. The projector often projects all sorts of detail. Rhutchin's god is Rhutchin's projection. Why he projects such a little shit god as his imaginary sky fairy is perhaps explainable. No magic required.

 

[rhutchin]

So here's an interesting Heaven problem.

You are a parent. You have some children who lose their faith and become atheists. When you go to heaven, and they go to the lake of fire (your children, the ones you would do anything to protect, whom you loved and nurtured and would be horrified if someone beat up,) when you're in heaven and they are burning YOU DON'T CARE. It doesn't bother you one bit that they are burning. because heaven is defined as without pain, lament or regret. In your new body, you forget about your children and don't care about their suffering.

Weird definition of perfect, huh?

Nobody ever loses their faith. Faith is permanent - once God activates faith in a person, it cannot be lost.

In heaven, all things will be revealed - the true nature of children who are in hell will be seen. That which they were, or appeared to be, on earth will be disposed of and those children will be known for what they truly were. Kinda like finding out your children were pod people and you never knew it.

How will they be seen? on a movie screen, Looking down from heaven or what?

I don't know. Maybe a two way mirror.

 

[rhutchin]

So here's an interesting Heaven problem.

You are a parent. You have some children who lose their faith and become atheists. When you go to heaven, and they go to the lake of fire (your children, the ones you would do anything to protect, whom you loved and nurtured and would be horrified if someone beat up,) when you're in heaven and they are burning YOU DON'T CARE. It doesn't bother you one bit that they are burning. because heaven is defined as without pain, lament or regret. In your new body, you forget about your children and don't care about their suffering.

Weird definition of perfect, huh?

Nobody ever loses their faith. Faith is permanent - once God activates faith in a person, it cannot be lost.

In heaven, all things will be revealed - the true nature of children who are in hell will be seen. That which they were, or appeared to be, on earth will be disposed of and those children will be known for what they truly were. Kinda like finding out your children were pod people and you never knew it.

Which reveals the exceptionalist and/or racist nature of abrahamic religions.
I don't care how my kids generate their behaviour or if they really got my genes. I'm loving them for the interactions I have with them. They could be revealed to be the pizza delivery man kids, pod people, positronic robots, or cylons, it wouldn't change the fact that I love them.
Only Abrahamists can justify being happy seeing former loved ones burn in hell because "they weren't what they seemed to be" or "they never really had faith".

Why would you think that they are happy about it?

 

[rhutchin]

So here's an interesting Heaven problem.

You are a parent. You have some children who lose their faith and become atheists. When you go to heaven, and they go to the lake of fire (your children, the ones you would do anything to protect, whom you loved and nurtured and would be horrified if someone beat up,) when you're in heaven and they are burning YOU DON'T CARE. It doesn't bother you one bit that they are burning. because heaven is defined as without pain, lament or regret. In your new body, you forget about your children and don't care about their suffering.

Weird definition of perfect, huh?

Nobody ever loses their faith. Faith is permanent - once God activates faith in a person, it cannot be lost.

LOL…this used to bug me, in the early years after I lost my faith in the Christian God, as religionists were essentially saying that I faked my faith for those decades. But consider this, if I thought my faith was real, and that I was guaranteed to become part of your imaginary heaven, but in reality I was never really saved, where does that leave the idea of confidence of salvation? You either have to assume that tons of people are lying to you about their former faith, or that no one really knows whether or not their perceived faith in Christ & salvation is real. The only way to remain confident that your faith is truly real, is to assume that each and every single person that says they lost their faith are fakers/liars.

Not really. There are people who say that they are saved because they do good things; others because they are not as bad as they could be; others because they go to church and got dunked in the water. There are other explanations for why people say they have faith. The Bible tells us that God protects those who actually have faith - as He is the one who gave them that faith - and that He will not let them fall from faith. So, the question here is why you thought you had faith. Maybe it was because someone got you to say some prayer and then told you that you were saved. What's the truth here?

In heaven, all things will be revealed - the true nature of children who are in hell will be seen. That which they were, or appeared to be, on earth will be disposed of and those children will be known for what they truly were. Kinda like finding out your children were pod people and you never knew it.

But with your callous description above of why you would no longer be bothered by your own children being eternally tortured, I can see how you might consider so many people, nothing more than a bunch of useless liars…what a sad little world.

Deceived, Yes. Sad little liars, No. My description means that I am concerned about what happens to my children and never assume anything.

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The Bible doesn't even say that people never lose faith:

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

That won't stop rhutchin from claiming otherwise though. No reason to assume they're only talking about people who had believed prior. They clearly talking about anyone who doesn't believe.

True. The Bible says more than what you say.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Only Abrahamists can justify being happy seeing former loved ones burn in hell because "they weren't what they seemed to be" or "they never really had faith".

Why would you think that they are happy about it?

Because of the shine in their eyes as they describe the horrors and tortures that await anyone that rejects their Christ. Because of the time they spend preaching on the fates of the unfaithful. Because they get so excited that they spit on listeners as they wax rapturous on the ability to look down from Heaven upon those that burn, knowing full well that they could have avoided damnation by merely agreeing with those who tried to spread the Faith.

And by how vicious they get at anyone that begins to question whether or not it's possibly unfair. How they rush to the defense of their skybeast that has done the condemning rather than the forgiving.

 

[Rhea]

Only Abrahamists can justify being happy seeing former loved ones burn in hell because "they weren't what they seemed to be" or "they never really had faith".

Why would you think that they are happy about it?

We already went over this. Because they are in heaven and there is no unhappiness in heaven. So whatever is happening in hell while they are in heaven, they are happy about it. YOU described this as being becuase the hell-bound had it coming.

In heaven, all things will be revealed - the true nature of children who are in hell will be seen. That which they were, or appeared to be, on earth will be disposed of and those children will be known for what they truly were.

This was in response to what a parent might think upon seeing their own children burning in hell (or at least, not seeing them in heaven, which clearly indicated where they are instead).

You replied this. That the reason the parent is now happy in heaven despite their children burning is that they now see what their children "truly are" and that they obviously deserve it, because otherwise how could the parent be happy seeing it.

Which I think makes anyone who believes this is a good description of a perfect heaven to be be quite monstrous and it frightens me that they exist in my society. Sick people.

My description means that I am concerned about what happens to my children and never assume anything.

But you will not be concerned any more when you are in heaven. Nothing about the fate of your children, if they go to hell, will bother you ONE IOTA. Indeed, if you predecease them and there is a period of time when you are not sure if they will burn, you will STILL not care at all, because that would disrupt your heavenly happiness and that is not allowed to happen. You will not care if your children burn, once you are "perfected" by your god.

Monstrous, isn't it?

 

[rhutchin]

Only Abrahamists can justify being happy seeing former loved ones burn in hell because "they weren't what they seemed to be" or "they never really had faith".

Why would you think that they are happy about it?

We already went over this. Because they are in heaven and there is no unhappiness in heaven. So whatever is happening in hell while they are in heaven, they are happy about it. YOU described this as being because the hell-bound had it coming.

We are told that there will be no tears in heaven. That does not mean that those in heaven are happy, or in any sense rejoice, in the condition that the lost now find themselves. Just because all is revealed so that people understand and do not shed tears over what they see does not make them happy. Now, those in heaven will naturally be happy and rejoicing over that which they are experiencing in heaven. But that is not unusual. People who have been in the path of a tornado may rejoice at having escaped destruction but this would not make them happy about those who did not.

In heaven, all things will be revealed - the true nature of children who are in hell will be seen. That which they were, or appeared to be, on earth will be disposed of and those children will be known for what they truly were.

This was in response to what a parent might think upon seeing their own children burning in hell (or at least, not seeing them in heaven, which clearly indicated where they are instead).

You replied this. That the reason the parent is now happy in heaven despite their children burning is that they now see what their children "truly are" and that they obviously deserve it, because otherwise how could the parent be happy seeing it.

Which I think makes anyone who believes this is a good description of a perfect heaven to be be quite monstrous and it frightens me that they exist in my society. Sick people.

Happy about escaping destruction; not happy about the condition of those who did not.

My description means that I am concerned about what happens to my children and never assume anything.

But you will not be concerned any more when you are in heaven. Nothing about the fate of your children, if they go to hell, will bother you ONE IOTA. Indeed, if you predecease them and there is a period of time when you are not sure if they will burn, you will STILL not care at all, because that would disrupt your heavenly happiness and that is not allowed to happen. You will not care if your children burn, once you are "perfected" by your god.

Monstrous, isn't it?

I don't see anything monstrous about it. Now, I can do something about it; then I will not. Using the tornado example again, before the tornado, I can warn people of coming destruction; after the tornado and destruction has come, there is nothing that can be done - people have reaped the consequences of their decisions and those consequences cannot be undone.

 

[dx713]

what Rhea said.

 

[rhutchin]

Only Abrahamists can justify being happy seeing former loved ones burn in hell because "they weren't what they seemed to be" or "they never really had faith".

Why would you think that they are happy about it?

Because of the shine in their eyes as they describe the horrors and tortures that await anyone that rejects their Christ. Because of the time they spend preaching on the fates of the unfaithful. Because they get so excited that they spit on listeners as they wax rapturous on the ability to look down from Heaven upon those that burn, knowing full well that they could have avoided damnation by merely agreeing with those who tried to spread the Faith.

And by how vicious they get at anyone that begins to question whether or not it's possibly unfair. How they rush to the defense of their skybeast that has done the condemning rather than the forgiving.

I think you are mixing current experience with future conditions.

 

[atrib]

I don't see anything monstrous about it.

You find nothing monstrous about the idea of burning someone in fire forever and ever? Remember, the torture never stops, it is eternal.

Most modern humans have figured out that torturing other human beings (and even other animals) is barbaric, and most developed nations have written laws against it. But here you are telling us you find absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of your children being burned alive for all eternity. That you find no horror at the notion that their screams of pain will never stop. That is what indoctrination into the beliefs of your preferred death cult has done to you. You are no longer able to distinguish reality from mythology and you have been desensitized to the point you no longer feel compassion or empathy with your own flesh and blood.

 

[Sheshbazzar]

Back about 1965 my cousin was stung by a wasp. In retaliation he caught that wasp and with pinchers held it in the flames of our gas range. Kind of weird revenge.
If he was still holding that wasp in the flames today, fifty years latter, I could conclude nothing other than that he was fucking insane.

So biblegod, if he is at all as the bible, and as christianity portrays him.

Biblegod and the christian religion in their love and endorsement of senseless and unending torture are both forms of extreme insanity. Anyone who cannot see that is irrational, or extremely dishonest. perhaps both.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

We are told that there will be no tears in heaven.

Ya, but what we're NOT told is whether or not you'd know my name if you saw me there. Why the secrecy? What is it that this God fellow is trying to hide?

 

[dockeen]

One of the lessons of the heaven story, in much the same way as the Job story, is that the relationships we have with other humans are, ultimately irrelevant and completely unimportant compared to the relationship with god.

 

[another1]

I'm a Christian. I have my own ideas because God gave me the right to have them, like anyone else. Your humor about Oprah made me crack a smile, thank you. Like I said, I have my own thoughts. I wonder if a God would respect someone stupid enough to believe any of the things you pointed out as being ridiculous things to believe. I agree that Oprah is an institution of evil. EEEEVIL. With my own thoughts, I sit on the train or in my shitty truck and wonder if hell is experienced in life. I wonder if every doubtful, negative act and emotion is forming hell around me. I try to stick to the staples, or rather they stick in me. I'd die to prove a point if I thought it was righteous on a massive enough scale. I give food to people instead of money for heroin for myself or them. I stop at traffic lights. I Look away when seniors in high school are dressed like sluts. I listen to my little voice. My voice sounds like a british guy. He is very proper. Hopefully we all have a "voice", if not a generic Religion to help us meditate on a voice. A charismatic man talking about scary shit is something that some people need. Some people need to sit with their legs crossed all day smoking pot with their penis wrapped around a pole. I think they meditate on the voice and create a slightly less hellish life for themselves; if not through the fellowship of their faith, then by their own conscience. Being Christlike and liking Christ can be a strange trip to take. If you choose to represent yourself with something that doesn't require stoning and hanging much anymore, I see no irrationality in it. I see that some people become full of hatred for things and make the things they misunderstand and hate more real than they need to be. I do see that often. If I am creating hell right now, should I keep Oprah here? That only seems fair.

1. As I understand it, if I buy the Christpack (TM) I end up with a resurrected body living in the New Kingdom. Do I get to choose the age I want to be? Is it standardized? Is this a unisex body? Also, hygiene issues, etc?
2. Wings? Are there tutorials for this? I'm assuming wings plus arms, which raises issues with clothing, plus chafing. Also deodorants, wing oil, etc, etc. This does not sound like fun to me.
3. Round the clock worship????? Uh, no, not if this new kick is supposed to represent the deepest level of human consciousness and the most profound fulfillment of need. The stuff I like to do the most usually comes in increments of 15 to 30 minutes, nuff said. Can you take a break from contemplating the Big Cheese? Do you have to keep thinking up compliments? Could be a stretch.
4. Fleas, bedbugs in heaven? I'm asking ahead because I can just see some holy ascetic who gets shooed in with a minimal vetting service & no one at intake thinks to check for bugs. And once the fleas get in, I assume they're in for the long haul, and I doubt heaven has Orkin, because it's not given much priority in the book.
5. Big O. Okay, let's just address this, because she just turned 60, and with her weight fluctuations, who knows what's going on, and it's a matter of time, anyway. A couple of years ago she even talked about this on her show, something like, 'Ooh child, when I go, there's gonna be some celebratin' and Hallelujah singin' in heaven!!!" So you just know Oprah is gonna be one massive pain in heaven, demanding face time, assuming that she can speak for everyone else, pushing ahead in line. Am I alone in this? Are there not more people thinking that Oprah is going to suck the fun out of heaven??? Suggestions, strategies?
6. Do you get to talk to celebrities up there, or is that gauche, and in a way detracting from the glory of the Big 3? If I see Loretta Young or George Wallace or Minnie Pearl, am I supposed to pretend I don't see them?
7. Reading materials, movies, music?? (See #3 on the boredom factor.) Will it all be PG13? I'm sorry, Christians, if you think this is a trifling question, but I really don't think you'll be happy either, flapping wings all day with your local green-grocer (as Mencken phrased it.) And I know there will be music, but if it is all to be harps or Christian trombone solos, I have some other deals to consider.
8. Oprah again -- could she possibly be given her own compound or suite? It would show favoritism, but if it would get her out of the way, it would be worth it. Then again, she'd probably figure out a way to broadcast.
9. Communication with hell? I know there are some really exalted types who will want to watch the lost folks writhing and shrieking, but I would like some dependable cybermail (or even snail mail, which I bet it would be) with hell. Specifically, I want to write fan letters to Janis Joplin, Robert Ingersoll, and sarcastic condolence notes to Rush Limbaugh, et al., when they receive their dispensation. Oh -- that last one makes me one of the exalted gloaters; can't help it.
10. Are we absolutely SURE that 'you can't take it with you'?? If you get a resurrected body and some sort of clothing, how do we KNOW that you can't carry in a wallet -- or handbag -- or Winnebago?

 

[Rhea]

We are told that there will be no tears in heaven. That does not mean that those in heaven are happy, or in any sense rejoice, in the condition that the lost now find themselves. Just because all is revealed so that people understand and do not shed tears over what they see does not make them happy. Now, those in heaven will naturally be happy and rejoicing over that which they are experiencing in heaven. But that is not unusual. People who have been in the path of a tornado may rejoice at having escaped destruction but this would not make them happy about those who did not.

LOL, now you're saying that all those in heaven can be sad very very sad, sad all day and every day as they watch their very children burn and suffer with no ease or respite from torment, great wailing and gnashing of teeth... but as long as they don't actually cry, then there's nothing wrong in heaven? Wow, sucky heaven. Like depression in a way. All the sadness, unable to summon any emotion or outrage. Most people who suffer from those feelings HATE THOSE FEELINGS. So you're saying that heaven is like having severe depression. You can see intellectually that things are wrong, and sad, but you can't summon any reason to object.



You've never cried at the suffering of others when you could do nothing? You're one stone cold person.

But you will not be concerned any more when you are in heaven. Nothing about the fate of your children, if they go to hell, will bother you ONE IOTA. Indeed, if you predecease them and there is a period of time when you are not sure if they will burn, you will STILL not care at all, because that would disrupt your heavenly happiness and that is not allowed to happen. You will not care if your children burn, once you are "perfected" by your god.

Monstrous, isn't it?

I don't see anything monstrous about it. Now, I can do something about it; then I will not. Using the tornado example again, before the tornado, I can warn people of coming destruction; after the tornado and destruction has come, there is nothing that can be done - people have reaped the consequences of their decisions and those consequences cannot be undone.

And so you'll be sad that your children are burning forever, but you won't _cry_ so it's all fine.

Yup. Monstrous.

 

[rhutchin]

LOL, now you're saying that all those in heaven can be sad very very sad, sad all day and every day as they watch their very children burn and suffer with no ease or respite from torment, great wailing and gnashing of teeth...

No. The point that I made was to counter your claim that people in heaven would be happy on seeing those in hell. Remember the analogy to the tornado. The person is happy to have escaped the destruction of the tornado but not happy that his neighbor was not as fortunate. At the same time, there is no sadness because those in ehaven understand more - they see those in hell for what they are; that which was hidden from them on earth.

You've never cried at the suffering of others when you could do nothing? You're one stone cold person.

Heaven will be a unique place different for that people experience on earth and not comparable. On earth, we do cry over the suffering of others for a variety of reasons that will not come into play in heaven.

And so you'll be sad that your children are burning forever, but you won't _cry_ so it's all fine.

Yup. Monstrous.

Actually, I have great confidence that my children will not be in hell and part of that confidence is knowing that God is not a monster.

 

[rhutchin]

One of the lessons of the heaven story, in much the same way as the Job story, is that the relationships we have with other humans are, ultimately irrelevant and completely unimportant compared to the relationship with god.

On the contrary, our relationships with others is critical. It is through the personal relationships that Christians have with others that God has ordained as the means by which He brings His elect to salvation. The believer is God's agent to go into the world to tell people about Christ and how a person can escape God's wrath for their sin.

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We are told that there will be no tears in heaven.

Ya, but what we're NOT told is whether or not you'd know my name if you saw me there. Why the secrecy? What is it that this God fellow is trying to hide?

I guess we would just have to get acquainted at that time - kinda the way it happens on earth. I don't see an issue here.

 

[rhutchin]

Back about 1965 my cousin was stung by a wasp. In retaliation he caught that wasp and with pinchers held it in the flames of our gas range. Kind of weird revenge.
If he was still holding that wasp in the flames today, fifty years latter, I could conclude nothing other than that he was fucking insane.

So biblegod, if he is at all as the bible, and as christianity portrays him.

Biblegod and the christian religion in their love and endorsement of senseless and unending torture are both forms of extreme insanity. Anyone who cannot see that is irrational, or extremely dishonest. perhaps both.

Misplaced analogy. God tells us that no person who has sinned will enter heaven. Then He tells us how He has prepared a way for those who have sinned to be forgiven and thereby enter heaven. Your analogy of the wasp is off base. God does not hunt a person down and put the person into hell; He merely refuses a sinner entry into heaven leaving the sinner outside and in hell. All this God describes in language simple enough for a child to understand.

 

[Rhea]

God tells us that no person who has sinned will enter heaven. Then He tells us how He has prepared a way for those who have sinned to be forgiven and thereby enter heaven. Your analogy of the wasp is off base. God does not hunt a person down and put the person into hell; He merely refuses a sinner entry into heaven leaving the sinner outside and in hell. All this God describes in language simple enough for a child to understand.

Except for those whose hearts god hardens on purpose SO THAT they can never accept god, SO THAT he can torture them. Nah, your story has problems. So yeah, he actually does hunt them down and put them into hell.

 

[Rhea]

No. The point that I made was to counter your claim that people in heaven would be happy on seeing those in hell. Remember the analogy to the tornado. The person is happy to have escaped the destruction of the tornado but not happy that his neighbor was not as fortunate. At the same time, there is no sadness because those in ehaven understand more - they see those in hell for what they are; that which was hidden from them on earth.

Yeah, the tornado was a shitty analogy. If all you get for happy in heaven is the kind of happy you feel that the tornado missed you while wiping out your neighbor, then it's a commune of schadenfreude, and that's monstrous.

You've never cried at the suffering of others when you could do nothing? You're one stone cold person.

Heaven will be a unique place different for that people experience on earth and not comparable. On earth, we do cry over the suffering of others for a variety of reasons that will not come into play in heaven.

Yeah, 'cause in perfect heaven we no longer give a shit about the suffering of others and it doesn't make us cry any more. Which is monstrous. I know that you can't see how incredibly awful and narcissistic this all is. I can tell from your answers that NOTHING will make you recognize that highly polished item as a turd; you just keep polishing that sucker up. I can see from your answers that you would rather convince yourself that it is OKAY to be a monster, than to question these problems with your bible's description of heaven.

For example, you say there will be no tears, but people will still be sad. Yet the passage really says this:

And Revelation 21:4 tells us: "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."​

no mourning, no crying no pain.


So you won't have any pain for those tornado victims, you won't mourn them, you won't cry over them. And of course they won't die - ever - they will be tortured for eternity.

That's so awful it's always hard for me to handle people who think such a thing is okay. Nay, not "okay" but GLORIOUS!!!
Sick.

And so you'll be sad that your children are burning forever, but you won't _cry_ so it's all fine.

Yup. Monstrous.

Actually, I have great confidence that my children will not be in hell and part of that confidence is knowing that God is not a monster.

This is of no comfort to my devout mother who knows that her children are atheists and will therefore burn in hell. But you won't be sad. And your bible says she won't, either. How horrible. She does not appear comforted by your words, though.