• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Racist insists slavery wasn’t the only reason for the Civil War — but hilariously fails to name others

The situation was sufficiently complex that all the issues involved influence the other issues involved. Therefore even when discussing the other issues, slavery is a part of those other issues. One may therefore conclude that those other issues were just slavery under another name, but that would be false.

Slavery was the bellwether issue, the one that other issues wound up congealing around.

Or put more accurately, other "issues" were invented as bullshit excuses to engage in treason and kill fellow citizens in order to protect the institution of slavery.
Had those other issues not existed, but Lincoln still sought to end slavery, then the Civil War would still have happened. Had Lincoln not committed to end slavery but those other issues still existed, the Civil War would not have happened. That makes slavery the only meaningful cause of the Civil War.

Not really. An economic analysis of the situation showed an inter-regional conflict was inevitable. People often don't notice and/or under-estimate the power of economic forces, but even though they exist below the surface they are very real and have dramatic effects. It is similar to how plate tectonics has the very real and dramatic effects such as volcanoes and earthquakes.

You could point to quotes by Southern politicians showing they did this over slavery, and I can point to quotes by Lincoln showing he didn't oppose slavery and only wanted to save the Union. The problem with both of those quotes is that they assume politicians are intelligent. It is particularly absurd to say that in the age of Trump. They are no more privy to economic analysis than any other person.

And yes, slavery influences economics, so the unintelligent person will say "see it was slavery after all", but it was much more than that.
 
The situation was sufficiently complex that all the issues involved influence the other issues involved. Therefore even when discussing the other issues, slavery is a part of those other issues. One may therefore conclude that those other issues were just slavery under another name, but that would be false.

Slavery was the bellwether issue, the one that other issues wound up congealing around.

Or put more accurately, other "issues" were invented as bullshit excuses to engage in treason and kill fellow citizens in order to protect the institution of slavery.
Had those other issues not existed, but Lincoln still sought to end slavery, then the Civil War would still have happened. Had Lincoln not committed to end slavery but those other issues still existed, the Civil War would not have happened. That makes slavery the only meaningful cause of the Civil War.

Not really. An economic analysis of the situation showed an inter-regional conflict was inevitable. People often don't notice and/or under-estimate the power of economic forces, but even though they exist below the surface they are very real and have dramatic effects. It is similar to how plate tectonics has the very real and dramatic effects such as volcanoes and earthquakes.

You could point to quotes by Southern politicians showing they did this over slavery, and I can point to quotes by Lincoln showing he didn't oppose slavery and only wanted to save the Union. The problem with both of those quotes is that they assume politicians are intelligent. It is particularly absurd to say that in the age of Trump. They are no more privy to economic analysis than any other person.

And yes, slavery influences economics, so the unintelligent person will say "see it was slavery after all", but it was much more than that.

It was slavery. It was always slavery.

The original thirteen colonies almost didn't join together and present a united front in the War of Independence because of differing views over slavery. Their delegates to the Continental Congress decided to kick the can down the road and ignored the issue until after the War was won.

Then the delegates almost failed to create a Constitution because of the same divided opinions on slavery. They managed to craft a document that was acceptable to all, but it didn't resolve the issue to anyone's satisfaction.

Then the country began expanding as territories were settled and became states and the issue couldn't be ignored any longer. The slaveholding states had little power in the House of Representatives due to their low population density as compared to northern states. They had power in the Senate but they'd lose it if the number of free states was allowed to exceed the number of slave states. That's how we got the Missouri Compromise, which restricted slavery to the southern half of the country while pairing a free state with a slaveholding one so the balance of power in the Senate could be maintained. That worked fairly well for about 20 years but by the mid 1840's it was starting to fray and crumble. Another compromise bill, the Compromise of 1850, was passed in an attempt to stave off open conflict but it couldn't fix the core issue. And then Nebraska and Kansas came along.

The Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854 contained a clause that allowed the citizens to decide if their states would permit or ban slavery. Kansas became a battleground between pro- and anti-slavery factions. People were murdered, farms burned to the ground, and armed militias roamed the territory looking for political opponents to terrorize. For a while there were two territorial governments, one in Topeka and the other in Lecompton, each declaring the other illegitimate. The mayhem grew to such an extent that people started calling the place Bleeding Kansas.

I won't go into detail about all the panicked scrambling in Washington D.C. during the 1850s but suffice it to say the Whig Party collapsed under the strain, and out of the ruins arose the pro-expansion, anti-slavery bane of the Democrats, the Republican Party. Slaveholders and plantation owners in southern state Legislatures saw the threat to their wealth and issued an ultimatum: if a Republican won the election of 1860, the South would secede. Abraham Lincoln won the election running as a moderate from a swing state. Seven states seceded before he was even sworn in to office. Lincoln's Inaugural Address contained a pledge not to interfere with slavery in the south and an appeal to allow "the better angels of our nature" to prevail, but it didn't matter. Slave holders knew that it was only a matter of time before the US abolished slavery, and the only way to retain their slaves was to form a government devoted to that cause. And thus the Confederate States of America was born, with the proviso that "No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed".

The Civil War might have been avoided if shots weren't fired at Fort Sumter and if US citizens were allowed to retain their citizenship while both governments hashed out a treaty, but it's not likely. There was too much money and power at stake, and all of it rooted in slavery.

It was all about slavery.
 
Last edited:
Slavery baaaaad. No shit, Sherlock. But life is more complicated than just that.

Are we next going to hear "Water is wet" during an examination of ocean currents? But in the end water is wet. Yeah... We know.
 
The only reason southern states seceded from the union was because of slavery and northern states exercising their states rights in not enforcing the fugitive slaves act. How do I, a foreigner, know this? Because it was the only reason given in the declaration of secession. It was mentioned in the CSA constitution. It was the backbone of Alexander Stephens first speech as vice-president of the Confederate States of America.

This is probably why I'm comfortable with saying it was all about slavery, but as usual, John Oliver can say it far better than I can.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5b_-TZwQ0I[/youtube]
 
To be fair to this guy, all the best historians and researchers who've been trying to justify the Civil War over the past century and a bit haven't been able to come up with a second reason either, so you can't fault this guy for not doing better.

When a group of people names themselves the Slaveholding States and explicitly declares that they're going to war specifically due of the issue of slavery, it makes it difficult for others to argue about how trivial the issue of slavery was as compared to all the other really important issues which led to the war that the people who started the war never bothered to ever mention.

I recently saw the Gettysburg prequel, Gods and Generals... it had the same idea. That the south was fighting for their freedoms. But it was unclear what freedoms the north was trying to take away from them. I guess... the freedom to leave the union. But it was a bit hazy on why they'd want to.
 
If she doesn't want to marry him because she is racist and he is black, does that justify a shotgun wedding? If she doesn't want to have sex with him because he is black (very common with prostitutes), does that justify rape?

If states want to leave the union because they want slavery, does that justify killing people so they fear you enough not to? Is that different from allowing them to leave, but fighting and killing to free their slaves? Are human rights abuses in a country grounds for anexation of that country and domination over its people?
 
Last edited:
If she doesn't want to marry him because she is racist and he is black, does that justify a shotgun wedding? If she doesn't want to have sex with him because he is black (very common with prostitutes), does that justify rape?

If states want to leave the union because they want slavery, does that justify killing people so they fear you enough not to? Is that different from allowing them to leave, but fighting and killing to free their slaves? Are human rights abuses in a country grounds for anexation of that country and domination over its people?

Your analogically comparisons are dishonest. You know as well as I do that consent (symmetry of power, in this case) very much is a factor here. No social freedom exists to force someone to marry you or to have sex with you, and you know this. Nor does a social freedom exist to engage in slavery. We talked about this, why are you going back to it? Are you too much of a child to be able to help yourself from making such dishonest arguments?
 
If she doesn't want to marry him because she is racist and he is black, does that justify a shotgun wedding? If she doesn't want to have sex with him because he is black (very common with prostitutes), does that justify rape?

If states want to leave the union because they want slavery, does that justify killing people so they fear you enough not to? Is that different from allowing them to leave, but fighting and killing to free their slaves? Are human rights abuses in a country grounds for anexation of that country and domination over its people?
Goodness this exposes an incredible amount of ignorance about the run up to... the start of... and fighting of the Civil War. The South "seceded" and started a rebellion against the United States because they didn't like the result of a fair Democratically held election. The guy that wanted to restrict expansion of slavery to the west won. Look at how sustainable democracy is in some African nations where one party didn't like the result of the election.
 
Jolly Penguin said:
I recently saw the Gettysburg prequel, Gods and Generals... it had the same idea. That the south was fighting for their freedoms. But it was unclear what freedoms the north was trying to take away from them. I guess... the freedom to leave the union. But it was a bit hazy on why they'd want to.

You absolutely cannot rely on movies for this sort of knowledge. Since the Civil War, the 'Lost Cause' romanticism of the South has been dominant in popular culture. Most movies about the Civil War either buys it hook line and sinker, or glosses over the issue because it is 'too controversial.' The only good Civil War movie is Glory, because that is the only one that doesn't gloss over the central issue.
 
If she doesn't want to marry him because she is racist and he is black, does that justify a shotgun wedding? If she doesn't want to have sex with him because he is black (very common with prostitutes), does that justify rape?

If states want to leave the union because they want slavery, does that justify killing people so they fear you enough not to? Is that different from allowing them to leave, but fighting and killing to free their slaves? Are human rights abuses in a country grounds for anexation of that country and domination over its people?

Your analogically comparisons are dishonest. You know as well as I do that consent (symmetry of power, in this case) very much is a factor here. No social freedom exists to force someone to marry you or to have sex with you, and you know this. Nor does a social freedom exist to engage in slavery. We talked about this, why are you going back to it? Are you too much of a child to be able to help yourself from making such dishonest arguments?

What arguments? These are questions, exploring the concept of freedom, sovereignty, and human rights abuse. Also, just because you've made your points and I've listened, doesn't settle everything on a topic for everyone reading.

Does it make any difference to you that the north didn't give the south its independence, but fight to free its slaves as well, as opposed to forcing the south to remain in the union? Is there grounds based on the tons of abuse North Korea has done to its people, to annex North Korea and make it part of the USA?
 
If she doesn't want to marry him because she is racist and he is black, does that justify a shotgun wedding? If she doesn't want to have sex with him because he is black (very common with prostitutes), does that justify rape?

If states want to leave the union because they want slavery, does that justify killing people so they fear you enough not to? Is that different from allowing them to leave, but fighting and killing to free their slaves? Are human rights abuses in a country grounds for anexation of that country and domination over its people?

Your analogically comparisons are dishonest. You know as well as I do that consent (symmetry of power, in this case) very much is a factor here. No social freedom exists to force someone to marry you or to have sex with you, and you know this. Nor does a social freedom exist to engage in slavery. We talked about this, why are you going back to it? Are you too much of a child to be able to help yourself from making such dishonest arguments?

What arguments? These are questions, exploring the concept of freedom, sovereignty, and human rights abuse. Also, just because you've made your points and I've listened, doesn't settle everything on a topic for everyone reading.

Does it make any difference to you that the north didn't give the south its independence, but fight to free its slaves as well, as opposed to forcing the south to remain in the union? Is there grounds based on the tons of abuse North Korea has done to its people, to annex North Korea and make it part of the USA?

Your questions are loaded, and constitute arguments. To "just ask questions" whose answers assume that the analog is apt is to argue that raping someone is the same as stopping them from enslaving someone. We already covered that it is not freedom to enslave/rape, and it is not a violation of freedom to step in and stop rape and slavery.

It in fact is important to the north, in the position they were in, to not grant the south "freedom" because of the fact that they could have just as easily turned around and gone right back to slavery. You don't chase down a murderer, arrest them, put them on trial, find them guilty in the first degree with a preponderance of evidence and then just let them go.

Rather, you put them in a controlled rehabilitative setting until you are sure they won't do it again, and then afterwards you watch them like a hawk. Similarly, when a part of your country does something like slavery and instigates a bloody civil war, you don't just let them go on about their business after...

As to NK, we are NOT in a position, internationally or otherwise, to do anything about it. We could invade but it would be bloody and destructive and we would be extended without local support halfway around the world. It's a stupid question as while there is an obligation for someone to do something, the situation is not yet right for that action, and we are not the actor who should be doing it, and again, we both know this. So are you going to stop feigning ignorance and innocence? Like in other threads, the NK bit is not germane to the conversation and I will not engage further on that discussion, nor should anyone else.
 
It in fact is important to the north, in the position they were in, to not grant the south "freedom" because of the fact that they could have just as easily turned around and gone right back to slavery.

This isn't just about slavery (as the challenge I am answering was given in the OP). This about both slavery and self-rule, and probably a bunch of other things.
 
It in fact is important to the north, in the position they were in, to not grant the south "freedom" because of the fact that they could have just as easily turned around and gone right back to slavery.

This isn't just about slavery (as the challenge I am answering was given in the OP). This about both slavery and self-rule, and probably a bunch of other things.

Self-rule specifically to engage in slavery.
 
It in fact is important to the north, in the position they were in, to not grant the south "freedom" because of the fact that they could have just as easily turned around and gone right back to slavery.

This isn't just about slavery (as the challenge I am answering was given in the OP). This about both slavery and self-rule, and probably a bunch of other things.

Except it's not. The only aspect of self-rule which they were interested in was the ability to continue slavery without any interference.

It would be nice if it were fighting for freedom from tyranny or something like that, because then their descendants could have something to be proud of, but they were very clear, specific and straightforward about what it was that they were doing and why they were doing it.

They didn't even use any kind of code words or dog whistles or anything like that. They declared quite openly that "We are the Slaveholding States and we're seceding to preserve the institution of slavery because the federal government has anti-slavery policies as its purpose".

Your position is like if a defendant in a murder case confessed to the police "Well, I caught my bitch wife in bed with another man, so I shot her in the face" and then his lawyer argues that his sentence should be reduced because his wife was also embezzling from her company and he stopped her from doing that anymore. That may be the case, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with why he shot her and this is backed up by his stated reasons for shooting her.

The Slaveholding States told you straight out why it is that they started the Civil War. Just fucking believe them.
 
It in fact is important to the north, in the position they were in, to not grant the south "freedom" because of the fact that they could have just as easily turned around and gone right back to slavery.

This isn't just about slavery (as the challenge I am answering was given in the OP). This about both slavery and self-rule, and probably a bunch of other things.

Except it's not. The only aspect of self-rule which they were interested in was the ability to continue slavery without any interference.

It would be nice if it were fighting for freedom from tyranny or something like that, because then their descendants could have something to be proud of, but they were very clear, specific and straightforward about what it was that they were doing and why they were doing it.

They didn't even use any kind of code words or dog whistles or anything like that. They declared quite openly that "We are the Slaveholding States and we're seceding to preserve the institution of slavery because the federal government has anti-slavery policies as its purpose".

Your position is like if a defendant in a murder case confessed to the police "Well, I caught my bitch wife in bed with another man, so I shot her in the face" and then his lawyer argues that his sentence should be reduced because his wife was also embezzling from her company and he stopped her from doing that anymore. That may be the case, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with why he shot her and this is backed up by his stated reasons for shooting her.

The Slaveholding States told you straight out why it is that they started the Civil War. Just fucking believe them.

Yeah, thing is, he keeps trying to present the goal (self rule) from the purpose of said goal (to hold slaves) and treat them as distinct and independent factors when they are not. Its like saying "they fought a war for independence because they wanted to be independent": it's a trivial non-answer. We didn't ask for that answer, we asked what the justification for seeking independence was, and that had exactly one answer boldly proclaimed by the south: slavery
 
It in fact is important to the north, in the position they were in, to not grant the south "freedom" because of the fact that they could have just as easily turned around and gone right back to slavery.

This isn't just about slavery (as the challenge I am answering was given in the OP). This about both slavery and self-rule, and probably a bunch of other things.

There was no uniformity of opinion among each state's citizens on whether they should secede, or seek some kind of Grand Compromise, or remain in the Union and allow slavery to slowly come to an end over the next 25-50 years. The legislatures, controlled and heavily influenced by wealthy slaveholding plantation owners, simply declared that their states had seceded and then enforced their authority at gunpoint. Virginia split into two separate states over the matter when the farmers and miners in Appalachia refused to renounce their citizenship in the USA. And as the war progressed the Confederate States enacted laws to force citizens to fight for the CSA no matter how they felt about secession, or slavery, or shooting friends and family on the other side. Also, the Confederate Army routinely kidnapped and enslaved people in the Northern states it invaded

It's pretty cheeky to claim The Confederates were fighting for noble sounding stuff like rights and freedom and self-rule considering what they actually said and did back then, but that's what Lost Cause mythology does. That's why it exists - to hide the ugly truth behind an attractive veneer.
 
It in fact is important to the north, in the position they were in, to not grant the south "freedom" because of the fact that they could have just as easily turned around and gone right back to slavery.

This isn't just about slavery (as the challenge I am answering was given in the OP). This about both slavery and self-rule, and probably a bunch of other things.

Self-rule specifically to engage in slavery.
QFT. It is instructive that so many participants in this thread get that simple point.
 
They were just fine being part of the Union as long as it meant the northern tax payers were footing the bill for their forts and armories, and in some cases (Florida, Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana) their entire states.
 
They were just fine being part of the Union as long as it meant the northern tax payers were footing the bill for their forts and armories, and in some cases (Florida, Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana) their entire states.

So, pretty much like today.
 
Actually, there is another reason (not that it's a proper reason for war):

The north was already ahead economically. Removing slavery would harm the southern economy and thus put them even farther behind.
So....they went to war over slavery, that's what you're saying.

I'm saying they went to war over economics. What the North wanted would put a big dent in their economy. Think of what we see today with people like the branch dildonians--they object with a certain amount of violence to the government protecting the environment. I'm saying that the South was doing the same thing, but about protecting the blacks.
 
Back
Top Bottom