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Rand Paul Knows 50% of People on Disability are Faking it.

Long term total disability only qualifies one for Medicare after two years unless you have a condition that leads to an early death, like mine or stage 4 cancer.

My brother in law will be all right even if he doesn't qualify for SSDI. His "significant other" is a land owning millionaire who is willing to support him. Our efforts to keep him minimally employed are just a slightly better payback now than us just paying the entire insurance premium without the government subsidy.

His and therefore our main problem is that he is extremely stubborn. He doesn't want help from his friends and family and he played by the rules and paid his FICA taxes all of these years when most of the people in his position in his largely cash only business didn't and he feels like he now should now receive some benefit from SS when he needs the benefits. I agree with him.

As I read it its not whether you've been disabled for a period of time but whether the condition will leave you disabled for at least twelve months. http://www.socialsecurity.gov/pubs/EN-05-10029.pdf

Social Security pays benefits to people who cannot workbecause they have a medical condition that is expected
to last at least one year or result in death.

Another odd fact is that they don't provide for partial disability and they do require that one not be able to work, but, that they have incentive programs to get people on disability into work.

As far as the tough requirements go AthenaAwakend is spot on when she says those who are crooked will find ways to get benefits so only those who have problems are discriminated against by excessive quibbling and nitpicking.
 
And Rand Paul is exactly a Conservolibertarian, so people won't be able to unhack that one.

What's so libertarian about Rand Paul? Can anyone actually answer that? Nope.
He is the poster child of the conservolibertarian movement... ie, the outsider, anti-government, but no where near as libertarian as his father. I didn't realize this was a controversial statement.
 
What's so libertarian about Rand Paul? Can anyone actually answer that? Nope.
He is the poster child of the conservolibertarian movement... ie, the outsider, anti-government, but no where near as libertarian as his father. I didn't realize this was a controversial statement.

He's really more of conservoprogressive.
 
He is the poster child of the conservolibertarian movement... ie, the outsider, anti-government, but no where near as libertarian as his father. I didn't realize this was a controversial statement.

He's really more of conservoprogressive.

He's rally more of an a tent evangelist who passes out hope and damnation for personal reward.
 
There are plenty of folk exploiting SSDI, and plenty of folk that deserve it.

As laid out by the latest article in the "Annals of Anecdotal Evidence" entitled "There Was This Guy I Once Knew."

Turns out, "plenty of folk" is an actual unit of measurement in the highly competitive field of anecdotal evidence analysis. Slightly smaller than "a whole lot of people" but considerably larger than the very precise "this dude I talked to one time on a bus."

We can only hope that the new Republican-controlled Congress will employ such experts as these, along with scientists from the highly respected "I Read It On The Internet" Institute to shape policy in this area moving forward.

Which is not to be confused with the National Enquirer and the article "There was this hypothetical guy as evidence".

It takes a unique obliviousness to glass house living for you to illustrate the woes of the fictional Mr. Jenkins, and then to carp about the inadequacy of offering illustrations of real persons whose experience does not fit your fantasy. It is rather like telling us about the life of a pink elephant and sneering "anecdotal" at folks that tell you they have only seen grey elephants.

Perhaps the new Democratic minority in Congress will also employ experts in Robin Leach satire as "evidence" for their opinions?
 
You're really trying to make out that a hypothetical example is somehow equivalent to just asserting anecdotes as facts?
 
You're really trying to make out that a hypothetical example is somehow equivalent to just asserting anecdotes as facts?

Absolutely. The boards usual Pavlovian hysterics over "anecdotes" are ungrounded in either context or logic. Do you actually think if I said my two witnessed events were hypothetical, it would buttress my case? Of course not.

So if a poster is going to offer me a hypothetical example as "support" for their impressions, might not I reply with non-hypothetical examples personally witnessed?

Like any form of "support" for a position, hypotheticals, second hand accounts, first hand accounts, and scientific observation of a class or category ALL have a role in issue discussion - as long as they are used in context.

Hypotheticals provide "possible" facts and a thought experiment; witnessed facts (first hand accounts) provide a tiny sample, illustration, and a thought experiment; and scientific observation provides support for broad assertions of fact.

Hypotheticals and personal anecdotes dont' prove broad assertions, they do serve as valid methods of illustration.
 
<snip>

So, what should I make of something like this:

These golfers are considered disabled. ... <snip>... a computer analysis of federal records by The New York Times has found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?_r=0

Are railroads simply too dangerous to their employees to exist?

<snip>

No, my point is that the article you linked pretty much already addressed the question you asked of the previous poster.

The article is good and it does answer a lot of the questions that have been asked here, explicitly or even implicitly.

  • The problem is not with the disability rate of the employees of the LIRR.
  • The problem is with the the disability rate of retirees from the railroad.
  • The disability rate of the employees is reasonably on par with other railroads.
  • Until they retire that is, then the disability rate is nearly 100%.
  • Disability for the retirees isn't handled by the railroad or Social Security.
  • Disability for the railroad retirees is handled by the obscure Railroad Retirement Board.
  • But Social Security does have to contribute annually to the RRB, (3.2 billion dollars in 2009) .
  • I assume to make up shortfalls in the RRB disability fund.
  • Similar commuter railroads in New York don't have this problem, i.e. Metro North, the old Conrail.
  • Under RRB rules a retiree is granted disability if they wouldn't be able to perform the railroad job that they retired from.
  • Under SSDI rules you have to be disabled to the point that you can't do any job.
  • Under RRB practice it is sufficient to prove that you have the disease or condition.
  • Under SSDI rules you have to prove that the disease or condition prevents you from working.
  • Under both disability systems it is a relatively few number of doctors who are responsible for the fraudulent claims,
  • The RRB has to accept medical evidence from the doctor that the claimant chooses.
  • SSDI can require an examination by their doctors.

The employees and the retirees of the LIRR seem to be extra ordinarily greedy, certainly because they see other employees and retirees successfully gaming the system. But what they are doing is apparently legal. It calls for changing the laws, which is Paul's job. We can legitimately ask him why he isn't trying to solve this problem.

One obvious solution is to allow the vetting authority to maintain a "bad doctor" list like Medicare does to flag possible fraudulent claims. Congress has resisted allowing this in the past. Another legitimate question for Paul.

But the people who scamming SSDI are breaking the law. And Paul's solution for it, imagining how many of the people who are on SSD are frauds and cutting SSDI's budget by that amount, doesn't seem to be a very constructive way of handling the problem. If anything it will initially cost more to do the more detailed vetting of the applications. And at some point it is going to cost more than it is save. Any more rigorous vetting is going to have to be used on every application of the suspect categories of the likely ones most associated with fraud.
 
You would have to ask the Social Security Administration, or the Department of Justice.

You certainly can't just pull a random number out of your ass, which is what Rand Paul did.

Well, I was asking the people here...

But if Social Security knows who is faking disability wouldn't they not be on disability?

Those who are unafflicted with disabilities, if they try a little can completely separate themselves from all empathy and understanding of the problems faced by those who are disabled. Rand Paul is of that ilk. Rand Paul is selling the snake oil that (that our economy is so impoverished) we simply cannot extend a humanitarian helping hand to those who are and we should cut cut cut all we can from the incomes of these victims.

Dismal: If there is a debate between parties on how fake peoples' disabilities are, why contribute to the confusion by asking the people here for their opinions which will be no better backed with data than Rand Paul. "How many people do you think are faking it?" just gets a bunch of speculation on the legitimacy of the whole program. There are just too many who are NOT FAKING IT to call the entire program into question. Many disability claims require the services of a lawyer because the system is quite averse to disbursing benefits. The system has a fraud investigation division to ferret out the fakes and it is known to get downright unfriendly with genuinely disabled people. I wouldn't ask the people here to pull numbers out of their ass any more than I would ask Ron Paul.
 
Well, I was asking the people here...

But if Social Security knows who is faking disability wouldn't they not be on disability?

Those who are unafflicted with disabilities, if they try a little can completely separate themselves from all empathy and understanding of the problems faced by those who are disabled. Rand Paul is of that ilk. Rand Paul is selling the snake oil that (that our economy is so impoverished) we simply cannot extend a humanitarian helping hand to those who are and we should cut cut cut all we can from the incomes of these victims.

Dismal: If there is a debate between parties on how fake peoples' disabilities are, why contribute to the confusion by asking the people here for their opinions which will be no better backed with data than Rand Paul. "How many people do you think are faking it?" just gets a bunch of speculation on the legitimacy of the whole program. There are just too many who are NOT FAKING IT to call the entire program into question. Many disability claims require the services of a lawyer because the system is quite averse to disbursing benefits. The system has a fraud investigation division to ferret out the fakes and it is known to get downright unfriendly with genuinely disabled people. I wouldn't ask the people here to pull numbers out of their ass any more than I would ask Ron Paul.

I think it was established a while back that Rand Paul didn't say anything like what the OP suggests. And I don't think anyone is calling "the whole program into question".

I think the interesting question to many (including academics I linked) is why the disability rate is so much higher now than it was, and why the disability rate in the categories that are, er, hardest to clinically document are far outpacing other sorts of disabilities in their growth.

If you are a big supporter of the disability program, as I believe the authors of the papers I linked are, these are vital questions for the efficacy and fiscal solvency of the program.
 
Yes, it wouldn't have anything to do with access to healthcare and changes in demographics. It is all fraud, all the way down.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying we've become significantly worse at treating musculoskeletal and mental disorders since 1981?

No. He's saying that we have an older population, there will be more issues in the first place.


Also, people are more likely to survive a catastrophic incident and end up disabled than they used to. Some of those disabled today were corpses in the past.
 
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying we've become significantly worse at treating musculoskeletal and mental disorders since 1981?

No. He's saying that we have an older population, there will be more issues in the first place.

So I should pay no attention to the academic studies that say disability rates are much higher at every age group than they once were?

And that demographics explain very little of the increase in the disability rate?

Because it's surprising to me that Squirrel would know this sort of thing better than an MIT professor that researches this for a living.
 
You're really trying to make out that a hypothetical example is somehow equivalent to just asserting anecdotes as facts?

Absolutely. The boards usual Pavlovian hysterics over "anecdotes" are ungrounded in either context or logic. Do you actually think if I said my two witnessed events were hypothetical, it would buttress my case? Of course not.

So if a poster is going to offer me a hypothetical example as "support" for their impressions, might not I reply with non-hypothetical examples personally witnessed?

Like any form of "support" for a position, hypotheticals, second hand accounts, first hand accounts, and scientific observation of a class or category ALL have a role in issue discussion - as long as they are used in context.

Hypotheticals provide "possible" facts and a thought experiment; witnessed facts (first hand accounts) provide a tiny sample, illustration, and a thought experiment; and scientific observation provides support for broad assertions of fact.

Hypotheticals and personal anecdotes dont' prove broad assertions, they do serve as valid methods of illustration.

How would you like to have to deal with a "hypothetical" suggestion that we locate a high level nuclear waste repository in YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD? In theory, the waste would be contained nicely...take my word for that...you are hypothetically very safe, so shut up! Those who spew hypotheticals so often have not considered that in matters of governance, conclusions based on them affect REAL PEOPLE. When it comes to cutting benefits to people with real needs on the basis of hypotheticals, much human suffering can be the result. What we need is improvement in the system and that would probably cost a bit more money...to make sure bureaucrats with their hypotheses don't wrongly cut off somebody's ability to keep breathing or some other necessary life function.
 
Ron Paul is inventing numbers for personal gain, but significant levels of fraud is not at all implausible. Bear in mind that even just $1.5 k per month is $18k per year, which is more than a full time min-wage job. Sadly, that's plenty of incentive for millions of Americans to "fake it".
Also, while initial hoops can be arduous, once in the system it gets much easier to perpetuate, especially for "disabilities" that have no reliable cure or causes (such as most mental disorders and many "pain" disorders).
I've known several people who have faked it, some for over 20 years using mental disabilities by faking depression and suicidal thoughts (they readily admitted to me it was a scam and they have no major mental issues).

The cited official 1% faker number is utterly meaningless. That is the number they catch, and much like with cockroaches, there are thousands more for every one you see. So, we have no good direct empirical basis to estimate the % that are fraud's. Also, it is important to note that "fraud" doesn't just include people completely inventing a disability that don't or never had. It is likely mostly made up of people exaggerating either the severity and/or longevity of the symptoms and exaggerating how it impacts their ability to function on a job (something very hard to objectively assess with most psychological and "pain" disorders).

So, the real question is how feasible is it to fake a disorder? For some disorders, its very easy.
Easy to fake disorders are those where diagnosis relies mostly upon self-report and statements by patients and less upon directly observable biological factors (e.g. smashed pelvis). Many/most of the mental disorders, especially "anxiety" fall into this category as do physical disabilities where the focal disabling feature is "pain" (as opposed to observable tissue/bone damage that may also come with pain).

Part of the problem is that fraud by recipients is aided by highly "soft" science, and incompetence fraud by for-profit medical practitioners. Many patients only see practitioners when the insurance covers it, and the insurance often only covers diagnosed disorders. So, the same "disorder" diagnosis that gets the person a disability check gets the therapist a regular patient with a chronic condition for which there is no reliable remedy. Its a win-win motivation. Given the nonsense that so many therapists perform, there is near zero chance of them losing their license because the American Psychological Association is highly incompetent. Also, the SSA opens the door even further to such fraud by allowing forms of "evidence" most popular among frauds and widely viewed as unscientific and invalid by scientifically based psychological researchers. The social security administration explicitly allows such bogus test as a form of evidence to support disability claims, including "projective tests", including Rorschach and the Thematic Apperception Test where people say what they think or see in ambiguous inkblots or pics, then the therapist interprets it without anything close to a well validated, reliable, and standardized criteria. Even the more standardized diagnostic procedures in the DSM are so loose that it is quite easy to qualify as "disordered".
Studies with representative samples estimate that 26% of Americans would qualify in any given year as having one or more DSM-IV assessed disorder, and about half of Americans will meet the criteria sometime in their life. Given that only a portion of the unemployed have disorders, that means that most people with such diagnosable disorders have been working and successfully employed in the past, meaning that all but a small % of people with mental "disabilities" are quite capable of working now and in the future. Determining if a mental disorder exists is loose and not very rigorous as it is. Determining whether a person with a disorder can person their or any job is even more subjective.
 
No. He's saying that we have an older population, there will be more issues in the first place.

So I should pay no attention to the academic studies that say disability rates are much higher at every age group than they once were?

And that demographics explain very little of the increase in the disability rate?

Because it's surprising to me that Squirrel would know this sort of thing better than an MIT professor that researches this for a living.
didn't gruber go to mit?
 
What's so libertarian about Rand Paul? Can anyone actually answer that? Nope.
He is the poster child of the conservolibertarian movement... ie, the outsider, anti-government, but no where near as libertarian as his father. I didn't realize this was a controversial statement.

Until someone can add some sort of support to the "libertarian" half of that nonsense word, it will be controversial every time neoconservatve Republican Underseer uses his nonsense word to describe conservoprogressive Rand Paul.
 
When you deliberately refuse to get the point, your only recourse is to pretend you don't understand.

Be careful about pretending that you are less intelligent than you really are, you might convince people that it is the truth.
Is this the voice of personal experience?

Yeah, I do show that I'm not smart enough to refrain from responding to your woefully underinformed posts.
 
So I should pay no attention to the academic studies that say disability rates are much higher at every age group than they once were?

And that demographics explain very little of the increase in the disability rate?

Because it's surprising to me that Squirrel would know this sort of thing better than an MIT professor that researches this for a living.
didn't gruber go to mit?
Gruber earned his bachelor's degree from MIT and his doctorate from Harvard. He is still listed as a member of the MIT's department of economics.
 
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