Rape "case cleared"

[Rhea]

https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/case-cleared-part-1/

This is an audio podcast that lasts an hour. It is well researched and fully described.

When police closed the rape case against Bryan Kind, they made it look like it had been solved. But he never was arrested – or even charged. We team up with Newsy and ProPublica to investigate how police across the country make it seem like they’re solving more rape cases than they actually are.

Many cities in the USA whose police departments are calling tens of thousands of rape cases "cleared" when the made no effort to arrest the rapist.
These are cases where there is enough evidence to support probable cause, and the police decide to never make an arrest.
The suspects walk free. No arrest, no accountability.
To rape again.


Because - why? Why would you NOT follow this up!?

Rape culture?
Because rapes don't seem so bad to these police officers? Why do they not care enough to arrest the guy they have probably cause to believe committed a rape?


Oh, look how often rape cases are "solved," "brought to justice," Look, you women, we're taking care of the problem, right? What are you complaining about?


Given this, do you really also believe the police when they mark a case as "not sufficient evidence?" (which men interpret as "false claim")
You shouldn't.

 

[Toni]

https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/case-cleared-part-1/

This is an audio podcast that lasts an hour. It is well researched and fully described.

When police closed the rape case against Bryan Kind, they made it look like it had been solved. But he never was arrested – or even charged. We team up with Newsy and ProPublica to investigate how police across the country make it seem like they’re solving more rape cases than they actually are.

Many cities in the USA whose police departments are calling tens of thousands of rape cases "cleared" when the made no effort to arrest the rapist.
These are cases where there is enough evidence to support probable cause, and the police decide to never make an arrest.
The suspects walk free. No arrest, no accountability.
To rape again.


Because - why? Why would you NOT follow this up!?

Rape culture?
Because rapes don't seem so bad to these police officers? Why do they not care enough to arrest the guy they have probably cause to believe committed a rape?


Oh, look how often rape cases are "solved," "brought to justice," Look, you women, we're taking care of the problem, right? What are you complaining about?


Given this, do you really also believe the police when they mark a case as "not sufficient evidence?" (which men interpret as "false claim")
You shouldn't.

As shocking as this is, it's also not surprising. Contradiction? Not really.

Tom Sawyer explained it all in another thread. It's 'better' to pursue cases of robbery because there's a higher chance of getting a conviction.

Women are supposed to just lay back and think of England. And also of the justifiable outrage generated against the Catholic church over decades (at least) of the sexual abuse of boys. And not to see this as any kind of....double standard. Or indication that men should really consider changing their behavior. And no, not all men or even most men are rapists but an awful lot of them don't see it as a big enough deal to actually...pursue and try cases. Unless the victim is male, and even then, decades of waiting is ok. I mean, it's an outrage! but understandable. Truly it is. Childhood/adolescent sexual trauma is traumatic--devastatingly so. As is all rape but hey, if the victims are little boys, that's much, much, much more worthy of outrage than if it's a full grown woman of at least 13.

 

[laughing dog]

You don't understand. Clearing a case means the avoidance of the ultimate injustice in the world - a false rape accusation of a man! Moreover, it absolves the DA of having totry a case he (or she) might lose while letting a shoplifter go free.

 

[skepticalbip]

You don't understand. Clearing a case means the avoidance of the ultimate injustice in the world - a false rape accusation of a man! Moreover, it absolves the DA of having totry a case he (or she) might lose while letting a shoplifter go free.

Yes. The American system of justice is more concerned with the protection of the innocent than punishment of the guilty. Because of this, a higher bar must be met to find someone guilty than in some other countries. Benjamin Franklin's position was, “it is better a hundred guilty persons should escape than one innocent person should suffer.” while German chancellor Otto von Bismarck's position was, “it is better that ten innocent men suffer than one guilty man escape.” There have also been countries where just an assertion or suspicion is enough to find someone guilty.

Because of the American system of justice, the greatest enemy of the "me to" movement is the number of women making false accusations which makes the justice department even more cautious when judging and accepting the evidence.

 

[laughing dog]

You don't understand. Clearing a case means the avoidance of the ultimate injustice in the world - a false rape accusation of a man! Moreover, it absolves the DA of having totry a case he (or she) might lose while letting a shoplifter go free.

Yes. The American system of justice is more concerned with the protection of the innocent than punishment of the guilty. Because of this, a higher bar must be met to find someone guilty than in some other countries. Benjamin Franklin's position was, “it is better a hundred guilty persons should escape than one innocent person should suffer.” while German chancellor Otto von Bismarck's position was, “it is better that ten innocent men suffer than one guilty man escape.” There have also been countries where just an assertion or suspicion is enough to find someone guilty.

Because of the American system of justice, the greatest enemy of the "me to" movement is the number of women making false accusations which makes the justice department even more cautious when judging and accepting the evidence.

The number of false accusations pales in comparison to the inaction on the part of the DAs or sloth/indifference of the police to such serious crimes.

The appeal to the ""false accusation" issue deflects from the real problems that the podcast shows.

 

[Toni]

You don't understand. Clearing a case means the avoidance of the ultimate injustice in the world - a false rape accusation of a man! Moreover, it absolves the DA of having totry a case he (or she) might lose while letting a shoplifter go free.

Yes. The American system of justice is more concerned with the protection of the innocent than punishment of the guilty. Because of this, a higher bar must be met to find someone guilty than in some other countries. Benjamin Franklin's position was, “it is better a hundred guilty persons should escape than one innocent person should suffer.” while German chancellor Otto von Bismarck's position was, “it is better that ten innocent men suffer than one guilty man escape.” There have also been countries where just an assertion or suspicion is enough to find someone guilty.

Because of the American system of justice, the greatest enemy of the "me to" movement is the number of women making false accusations which makes the justice department even more cautious when judging and accepting the evidence.

Why are you going on and on about false accusations? The topic of this thread is why cases of rape with adequate evidence collected do not go to trial.

Are you one of those racist misogynistic who believe the only real rapes are committed by Catholic priests or black felons on unwarranted parole due to liberal judges who break into the bedrooms of beautiful little 12 year old blonde virgin middle schoolers?

 

[Patooka]

Not trying to lessen the importance of the OP, but I suspect the same could be said about murder investigations. It's going to happen when police are beholden to their statistics. I don't have a solution, but it's good that this problem is getting attention.

Also glad I posted before the inevitable "here is a picture of mattress girl" bullshit counter argument.

 

[ruby sparks]

Not trying to lessen the importance of the OP, but I suspect the same could be said about murder investigations. It's going to happen when police are beholden to their statistics. I don't have a solution, but it's good that this problem is getting attention.

Also glad I posted before the inevitable "here is a picture of mattress girl" bullshit counter argument.

Yes, the same could probably be said of many crimes. That, as you say, does not lessen the sense of injustice in this particular type of crime, which may, for a variety of complicated reasons, some more understandable and justifiable than others (and it would surely be wrong to say that sexism is the only one) be one type where injustice is most prominent, obvious and commonplace, and thus imo deserving of special attention.

Personally, I found the podcast shocking and am very glad that the OP posted it. The investigative reporters did a great job. Their report highlights a major flaw in (and arguably abuse of) the reporting of crime statistics in this area in particular (rape and sexual assault) and I can now add the term 'exceptionally cleared' to my lexicon and be very careful about swallowing statistics where it is not distinguished.

 

[Lion IRC]

In the (self-inflicted) age of gender equality, why should sexual assault clearance rates be given more scrutiny than any other kind of assault? And why should police compromise justice and the rule of law to dogmatically pursue one particular category of "scarce evidence" crime report while necessarily continuing to abandon other types of he said / she said cases for want of evidence?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone's_ratio

 

[ruby sparks]

Rape culture?
Because rapes don't seem so bad to these police officers? Why do they not care enough to arrest the guy they have probably cause to believe committed a rape?

Rape Culture is a controversial term. Personally, I would not use it, mainly for that reason. That said, I agree that it has been and to a hopefully lesser extent (in many 'western' societies) is still true that rape, sexual assault and indeed harassment are far too prevalent, grossly under-reported and under-addressed (in terms of justice) and often not taken as seriously as they should be, mostly by men, including, unfortunately, some men who are in positions where their attitudes tangibly matter more than others, such as in the police and legal professions.

I would not like to venture an opinion on or get into a tangled debate about 'how much we live in a rape culture'. In some (informal/everyday) ways it could be argued that we partially do, in others (formal/legal) that we don't, and of course many of us live and have lived in slightly different cultures from each other, and individuals (including of different sexes) will have had different experiences in their societies and interactions. I would be happier to say what I said above and also that we, in the 'west' generally, live in societies/cultures where thankfully such things are being taken more seriously as time goes by and that more improvements would be very welcome and needed, for the benefit of everyone, but of women in particular. I accept that as a man, I may not be as aware of certain things as women generally are.

I would equally not like to venture to say how often or how much something like sexism plays a part. I would like to think not as often as is sometimes asserted, but that is true of almost anything on which a range of assertions are made. That said, I have occasionally seen polls and studies which suggest that it is alive and well and indeed self-reported in many places, including but not only in the police, which I find disappointing and alarming. I think everyone who has an influence should continue to be vigilant and those with overall authority should continue to scrutinise and take appropriate action where necessary. Ditto for racism, though that is a separate topic.

 

[Rhea]

Because of the American system of justice, the greatest enemy of the "me to" movement is the number of women making false accusations which makes the justice department even more cautious when judging and accepting the evidence.

As I noted in the OP: If you see before you evidence that the police have been calling things "solved" when they are clearly not - to the extent that the rapist with tangible evidence for probable cause goes free to rape AGAIN - you should be very diligent in providing some incontrovertible evidence that these "false accusations" are actually occurring and not a fabrication of a police department calling perfectly good evidence unclear which is then interpreted by men as a "false claim."

In other words: citation needed. One that does NOT call valid rape accusations "false" the way the FBI data does that Loren and Derec exaggerate and swing around.

Until I see actual investigated evidence without caveats, I call your "oh there are bazillions of false rapes that are sooooo much worse than the real rape problem!! OOOOO!!!11!!" simple bullshit.

 

[Rhea]

Not trying to lessen the importance of the OP, but I suspect the same could be said about murder investigations. It's going to happen when police are beholden to their statistics. I don't have a solution, but it's good that this problem is getting attention.

Also glad I posted before the inevitable "here is a picture of mattress girl" bullshit counter argument.

"Not trying to lessen the importance of the topic, but I'd like to stop talking about it and talk about something else right now, mmmkay?"

Patooka - that does exactly lesson the importance. And it does not get attention at all when people respond to it by saying, "can we talk about something else right now?"

Just a heads-up for you.
This is a very common theme to women who have been assaulted. You report the assualt and "can we talk about something - anything - other than your assault? How about what you were wearing, how about whether anyone else had it worse, how about whether a different crime is also bad?"

That is how people have lessened the importance of this issue for centuries - and you were just complicit.

 

[Rhea]

In the (self-inflicted) age of gender equality, why should sexual assault clearance rates be given more scrutiny than any other kind of assault? And why should police compromise justice and the rule of law to dogmatically pursue one particular category of "scarce evidence" crime report while necessarily continuing to abandon other types of he said / she said cases for want of evidence?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone's_ratio

Dear Lion,

I certainly hope we will make gender equality self-inflicted. We should. You and I are both full humans, both full citizens.

No one is asking for sexual assaults to be given more scrutiny. We are demanding that they be given _enough_ scrutiny. We are demanding that they are given _as_much_ scrutiny.

But I ask no favors for my sex. I surrender not our claim to equality. All I ask of our brethren is, that they will take their feet from off our necks, and permit us to stand upright …

The podcast above, (I repeat, for the umpteenth time) is about cases that have probable cause, as has been repeatedly pointed out, that are nevertheless not pursued.

You are eager to not talk about that, I can see. Is that because it is not a problem to you that tens of thousands of rape cases where there IS evidence and there IS probable cause and there IS a known perpetrator are subsequently dropped with no action?

Ask yourself, why are you okay with that?
Why are you okay declining to discuss that?
Why (for the love of reason!) are you willing to demean and denigrate those who consider that a problem?

What kind of man are you?

 

[Rhea]

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

 

[Lion IRC]

All cases investigated by the police have probable cause - 100% Please learn the difference between sufficient probable cause to investigate and sufficient evidence to prosecute.

Male and female prosecutors (both) have to have sufficient prima facie evidence to justify taking the matter to court. I don't know why you think this is a gender issue.

It's not. It's an evidentiary hurdle.

And the taxpayers don't like wasting their money the courts valuable time on court cases which have a very low likelihood of success.

 

[ruby sparks]

All cases investigated by the police have probable cause - 100% Please learn the difference between sufficient probable cause to investigate and sufficient evidence to prosecute.

Male and female prosecutors (both) have to have sufficient prima facie evidence to justify taking the matter to court. I don't know why you think this is a gender issue.

It's not. It's an evidentiary hurdle.

And the taxpayers don't like wasting their money the courts valuable time on court cases which have a very low likelihood of success.

Almost certainly, it's both. It's what you say and it's what has, for example, been said by the women who have posted in this thread. I dare anyone to say, other than in a specific case, that it's clear how much of one thing it is and how much of another. Plus, things are changing as time goes by. Which leaves us with...what? A mixed, imperfect, evolving (dare I say generally improving?) picture, in which there are still shortcomings of several varieties. We don't have to end up opting for just one fixed, simplistic version of what is happening and why.

And if anyone wants to suggest that it's more 'this thing' than 'that thing', I think it's good if evidence can be cited, because (hopefully good, broad-based, empirical) information is the best thing to base one's views on, generally speaking, if we want to be as rational as possible, allowing that a lot of information can be nonetheless interpreted in different ways.

For example, anyone here can for instance google 'studies on RMA (rape myth acceptance) in the police'. I've done it. Guess what? It appears some police accept rape myths more than others, probably not as much or as many as some might think and probably more than some others might think. Either way, whatever the percentage of police officers who accept this or that aspects of rape myths in this or that scenario (and naturally, it varies) we can still agree, after (ideally/hopefully) neither overstating or understating the issue, that more could be done to address whatever shortcomings there are.

By and large, what one finds when one googles around thread subjects for studies and empirical data and information, is that very few issues are as clear cut as either 'side' in a thread might think. Everything is complicated.

So, at the risk of getting flak from for example both you and, say, the OP or Toni, I would venture to say that you are both almost certainly partly right and partly wrong, because it's not an either or.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And also of the justifiable outrage generated against the Catholic church over decades (at least) of the sexual abuse of boys. And not to see this as any kind of....double standard.

Do priests who rape little girls garner less outrage than priests who rape little boys?

Does the rape of adult women garner less outrage than the rape of adult men?

Be honest. Double standard indeed.

 

[laughing dog]

And also of the justifiable outrage generated against the Catholic church over decades (at least) of the sexual abuse of boys. And not to see this as any kind of....double standard.

Do priests who rape little girls garner less outrage than priests who rape little boys?

Does the rape of adult women garner less outrage than the rape of adult men?

Let's see - you ignore the OP subject about how the police "clear" rape cases (in which women are the overwhelming proportion of victims) to nitpick and start a derail about relative outrage depending on the victim's gender. So, you said it best -

Be honest. Double standard indeed.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Let's see - you ignore the OP subject about how the police "clear" rape cases (in which women are the overwhelming proportion of victims) to nitpick and start a derail about relative outrage depending on the victim's gender.

I addressed a point Toni has repeated numerous times now. I'm sorry if I didn't address the other points you would like me to. I felt they've already been adequately addressed here.

Police shouldn't be clearing any alleged crime without proper investigation. And it shouldn't depend on how easily they think they can get a conviction. They need more resources for investigation, and also for training in how to respond to calls without using deadly force.

 

[ruby sparks]

Let's see - you ignore the OP subject about how the police "clear" rape cases (in which women are the overwhelming proportion of victims) to nitpick and start a derail about relative outrage depending on the victim's gender. So, you said it best -

Be honest. Double standard indeed.

Let's see. You ignore a segue away from the OP onto the topic of abuses by the RCC and you jump on another one that was a response to it. Hm. Methinks double standards do indeed abound.

Hey, it's ok. Comparing and contrasting this and that is not generally irrelevant. Yes, it's often or sometimes secondary to the OP issue, but it happens in just about every single discussion thread ever and can be very useful and informative. There is surely no need for every post in every thread on any topic to only be directly and specifically about the OP. Sometimes it can be related to it. Toni's comparison was fine. Jolly's response to Toni was fine. If you must condone or critisise, at least try to be consistent and not base your choice of either merely on the person who posts.