Religions do not teach Justice & yet no one points it out

[sharon45]

It is based on some of your earlier descriptions. Sure, the girl comes back, as whatever, but who she was is almost entirely lost, save a few that declare a couple sparkles of a supposed past life event. Using your definition of justice, it sounds more like another loose form of cold physics as DBT pointed out above.

Again - justice is when you get what you lost back - it operates independently of whether you remember or not. How is it justice if you remember and not if you don't? That is a strange thing to say. Justice says you were robbed of something, you get it back, that is justice - does not depend on an individual remembering what happened

Okay, you did say that I, or anyone else gets justice. Well, to me, that is not justice, so I am clearly not receiving justice; I am not gaining what I lost back. My life is mostly my thoughts and personality, and also being able to remember said thoughts and personality, even if it is not technically everything, but at least close enough.

A child starts crying when he loses his fav toy. You give him a new one and he stops crying and totally forgets the loss - that is justice.

Sure, some children may forget, especially if they are very young, but not all. This could be a good and/or bad lesson depending on the child and other circumstances involved.

Suppose that said toy was stolen - does putting that thief in jail help the kid? Will it make him stop crying knowing the thief is in jail?

You need to consider the age of the child, maturity, and how much this child is aware of the world, then finally, the child decides, not me here and now.

One could say putting that thief in jail is part of justice but it is not complete until the kid gets a new toy and is made whole again.

Ah, maybe the child should not have the toy back, as I said above with there being an unknown lesson available.

In fact, true justice is when the thief returns the toy or buys the kid a new one - that is Reincarnation. You made a mess, you must come back and clean it up, don't leave it for others

No, that is closer to a 12 step program.

In Christianity that is what is encouraged. Cry a few croc tears of remorse - something you didn't do when you were alive - and nice God will forgive and off you go enjoy heaven!
Those are horrible morals

You ought to know very well that fake tears ain't gonna fool God.

I get the part of making it hurtful so that people will stop bad behavior - you don't speed because you don't want a ticket, a bad driving record.

And most importantly, the killing or injuring of others.

With your version of Reincarnation, there is barely the fierce sting that irresponsible behavior is supposed to strike with. Life can be easily seen as rather cheap and pointless. Kill somebody, by accident, or on purpose, and the victim merely comes back to life. And get this, nobody remembers; so an enemy stays dead, since the life that was before, now is lost, and some new stranger blindly takes up living on from there.

People are valuable because of their uniqueness, mainly based around experiences and memory, and that is forfeited.

One seeking Heaven, as you say, might come back as a pet. Well, that person should not honestly care, when there is no actual thought. Your cartoon has Falwell annoyed with realizing he is only a cat, but he really would never know such things, while he is that way.

It does not matter to me if I come back as a happy billionaire, or born to spend literally an entire life in prison, when my new self virtually contains nothing of who I am in this life.

But have you noticed how punishments were much harsher in the past? How they are much much harsher in primitive countries?

Sure, they can be, yet we still can not paint everybody with a broad brush.

 

[sharon45]

Yet as I have already pointed out, it is honestly not, and mainly because of the sorry lack of memory to greatly help continue the person's natural growth through its worthy guidance.

Not saying you are wrong, but the idea in Hinduism is that one should do something good because one feels like it, not because one feels obligated.

Well, that sounds like Chistianity, with its god wanting people to do things so-called naturally. A sense of obligation is a very worthy part in the process of learning how we deal with each other and our environment.

Basically it is my past life - this is who i am - it is that Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That

Yes, I understand that you believe this, but to me, you are willfully disregarding how we all just steadily learn and grow from babies onward, through our various surroundings, interactions, and circumstances.

 

[DBT]

You are not describing karma. You are describing physics. Macro scale cause and effect. Why even call that karma?

???? What you call a chair we call it Kurchi.

Also which came first? Just because Karma is associated with religion no need to put it down - take the idea for what it is

Fact is that in ancient times, ideas got lost - not like today where you can save it on computers and on the internet and it lives forever. But back then, how many great ideas might have died with their inventors?

What the ancients needed was a medium - a medium that would keep their ideas alive for a long, long time! Guess what they did? They chose religion! Brilliant!

Cause and effect between the objects of the world and their relationships in not related to Karma in the essential meaning of the word/concept;

''Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म, translit. karma; IPA: [ˈkərmə] (About this sound listen); Pali: kamma means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).[2] Good intent and good deed contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deed contribute to bad karma and future suffering.[3][4] Karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in many schools of Asian religions.[5] In these schools, karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives - one's saṃsāra.[6] '' - Wiki

 

[Ramaraksha]

Ah, maybe the child should not have the toy back, as I said above with there being an unknown lesson available.

This stood out a bit but basically one has to understand the concept - throwing up all kinds of scenarios is not right - unknown lesson? really? Can't believe you wrote that. For example Venus Williams was recently charged with killing a person - an older lady i think - Venus had to stop in the middle of the road because the car in front did not move, meanwhile the lights changed & the elderly driver simply ignored the car stopped in the middle and hit Venus & it was the old lady who died. Yes she had a right of way but some common sense needs to be used

I think your post is lacking that part. You just justify Christian ideas - regarding the above lets suppose it is your child who lost a toy - what would you do? I can't believe you wrote that.

My cartoon was in response to another cartoon where Steve Jobs was shown coming back as a Chinese worker and being annoyed because of that - well your post applies to that as well? Besides whatever happened to being a warning to others? Remember that? Vengeance, hurting the criminal was supposed to be a warning, right? Well, my cartoon is a warning to people not to fall for the easy promises of religions - you might end up in a worse state. You will get what you want, but yet regret it

 

[Ramaraksha]

Cause and effect between the objects of the world and their relationships in not related to Karma in the essential meaning of the word/concept;

''Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म, translit. karma; IPA: [ˈkərmə] (About this sound listen); Pali: kamma means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).[2] Good intent and good deed contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deed contribute to bad karma and future suffering.[3][4] Karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in many schools of Asian religions.[5] In these schools, karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives - one's saṃsāra.[6] '' - Wiki

Basically the Sanskrit word means Action - work. So the kid who works hard and studies gets good grades and the kid who doesn't gets bad grades. No need to bring magic and miracle into this - this is Karma

But what is popularly known as Karma - what you did in the past life comes back to haunt you - is Tat Tvam Asi - or You Are That. That was my earlier cartoon - Jerry Falwell comes back as a Cat - people who want the easy good life come back as pets - they get what they want. The guy dreaming of 72 virgins will come back as a bonobo monkey - he gets his wish - lots of sex

Understand that this is not a punishment - but simply you getting to be you - you get your wish - you get to be who you are

 

[sharon45]

Cause and effect between the objects of the world and their relationships in not related to Karma in the essential meaning of the word/concept;

''Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म, translit. karma; IPA: [ˈkərmə] (About this sound listen); Pali: kamma means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).[2] Good intent and good deed contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deed contribute to bad karma and future suffering.[3][4] Karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in many schools of Asian religions.[5] In these schools, karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives - one's saṃsāra.[6] '' - Wiki

Basically the Sanskrit word means Action - work. So the kid who works hard and studies gets good grades and the kid who doesn't gets bad grades. No need to bring magic and miracle into this - this is Karma

Which is instead, simple cause and effect.

Understand that this is not a punishment - but simply you getting to be you - you get your wish - you get to be who you are

Yet Falwell is still clearly bothered by suddenly realizing he is a cat.

 

[sharon45]

Ah, maybe the child should not have the toy back, as I said above with there being an unknown lesson available.

This stood out a bit but basically one has to understand the concept - throwing up all kinds of scenarios is not right - unknown lesson? really? Can't believe you wrote that.

This unknown is a part of cause and effect, action and interaction with rewards and/or curses. The rest was not just me spewing out here, they took a good while to work out and write, and it is fine if you want to ignore them, because I learned from the experience.

I think your post is lacking that part. You just justify Christian ideas

I do not justify, I try to merely explain them by using established thought and my own take.

regarding the above lets suppose it is your child who lost a toy - what would you do? I can't believe you wrote that.

It is because you gave a general example and I wanted to demonstrate a little that things are not always nearly as simple as most may view or want.

My cartoon was in response to another cartoon where Steve Jobs was shown coming back as a Chinese worker and being annoyed because of that - well your post applies to that as well? Besides whatever happened to being a warning to others? Remember that? Vengeance, hurting the criminal was supposed to be a warning, right? Well, my cartoon is a warning to people not to fall for the easy promises of religions - you might end up in a worse state. You will get what you want, but yet regret it

This is a form of vengeance if your cartoons were actually of which you speak, because it is a trick, and they realize it when it is too late, but not necessarily understanding why and how they were tricked. No matter, since they are supposedly assumed not to remember anyway, to be able to comprehend and eventually learn from an implied mistake.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Yet Falwell is still clearly bothered by suddenly realizing he is a cat.

Yes the same way a person is supposed to learn not to do bad things because of torture in hell - that was your point, now you are arguing the other way. It's a cartoon - Falwell is dead - he can't see the cartoon or know anything about it - it's for others lured by the prospect of an easy life in heaven.
Life teaches us that nothing is free - we teach our kids that - we say earn - don't beg, don't take anything for free
The Christian religion contradicts that idea - Heaven is for those who belong to the "right" religion, it cannot be earned, it can only be given
Such morals do not belong in the 21st century
But that is the sad thing here, because it is your religion you blindly support it

 

[Ramaraksha]

It is because you gave a general example and I wanted to demonstrate a little that things are not always nearly as simple as most may view or want.

You are playing with words - the question is simple - your kid lost his toy, broken in play by another kid or otherwise - what would you do to stop him from feeling bad? Simple question - the problem over and over i see is that you want to justify your religion and refuse to do or say the right thing

This is a form of vengeance if your cartoons were actually of which you speak, because it is a trick, and they realize it when it is too late, but not necessarily understanding why and how they were tricked. No matter, since they are supposedly assumed not to remember anyway, to be able to comprehend and eventually learn from an implied mistake.

You mean you didn't get the cartoon? Was it too subtle? Come on, it is pretty clear. I told you i stopped writing articles because people skim and can't understand and we usually say , "shall i draw a picture for you?" lol that is what i am doing - drawing a picture and if i still can't get thru well not everyone will get it i guess - it happens

Do you have Netflix? There is a video on Saudi Arabia - maybe you should see - people beheaded, tortured for offenses - please see and let me know if that is what you want here in the US

 

[sharon45]

Yet Falwell is still clearly bothered by suddenly realizing he is a cat.

Yes the same way a person is supposed to learn not to do bad things because of torture in hell - that was your point, now you are arguing the other way.

No, because I was describing the purpose by using the real idea from the actual religion; you, in turn, were not.

It's a cartoon - Falwell is dead - he can't see the cartoon or know anything about it - it's for others lured by the prospect of an easy life in heaven.

Quite, yet that helps to defeat your supposed point, since the example is not authentic. It is there to try to teach a lesson that is a lie. We are not aware of our past selves, so we do not honestly learn a thing from the older experiences.

I am seeing your cartoon, and I am not learning to avoid being changed into a bug or whatever, and it is not because I am really mentally dense.

Life teaches us that nothing is free

No, life teaches us that not everything is free.

The Christian religion contradicts that idea - Heaven is for those who belong to the "right" religion, it cannot be earned, it can only be given

Again, I have told and shown you that it is earned within the language of the religion.

Such morals do not belong in the 21st century

Although Christianity is not about morals, it is about corrupt power.

But that is the sad thing here, because it is your religion you blindly support it

Once again, it is not my religion, and I by far do not support it; I curse it. One ought to sincerely understand what one wishes to judge, then later curse.

 

[sharon45]

You are playing with words - the question is simple - your kid lost his toy, broken in play by another kid or otherwise - what would you do to stop him from feeling bad?

Sorry, you are asking the wrong person, since I will never have children. Now my supposed children are guaranteed to not feel bad.

Simple question - the problem over and over i see is that you want to justify your religion and refuse to do or say the right thing

Uh, how many times do you need to hear that I have no religion until it finally sinks in?

You mean you didn't get the cartoon? Was it too subtle? Come on, it is pretty clear.

Oh, I got it, and like my answer above, you keep ignoring or trying to explain away what is there.

Do you have Netflix? There is a video on Saudi Arabia - maybe you should see - people beheaded, tortured for offenses - please see and let me know if that is what you want here in the US

Okay, if you were actually following along with my comments from posts to you from before, you would already know my answer. I do not like it nor want it. There is no government on earth that passes my approval.

 

[LordKiran]

So, justice is the replacement of something lost, a return to the state before a harm was done?

Is it still justice if someone else replaces the lost item? If the driver is a teen and his day personally digs the hole for the new mailbox, is that justice?
Or if the driver's insurance pays for the new mailbox, is that justice?
Or if the post office regularly replaces and upgrades mail boxes, and installs a new one, is that still justice?

Because if justice is just the replacement/restoration, that's one thing. If the person who did the damage MUST be the one to do the replacement, that's more vengeance, not justice.

I think you're right, Shadow, we would need an actual definition of 'justice' and 'vengeance,' not just examples.

Ideas of justice cover more than righting wrongs. Justice covers a vast array of human themes and emotions, such as accountability as it pertains to the above example. Vengeance by contrast is not necessarily about accountability. Vengeance appeals to the same primal part of your monkey brain that lit up when you were six because your sister got more cookies than you. Vengeance is an appeal to human selfishness in a way that Justice is not typically categorized.

On the whole I'd say that justice is more about finding solutions that are best for all parties involved, where as vengeance is a pure manifestation of one's selfish desire to "Get yours." even if it means everyone else is worse off as a whole. In this way, Vengeance is non-productive and possibly destructive.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Is it still justice if someone else replaces the lost item? If the driver is a teen and his day personally digs the hole for the new mailbox, is that justice?
Or if the driver's insurance pays for the new mailbox, is that justice?
Or if the post office regularly replaces and upgrades mail boxes, and installs a new one, is that still justice?

Because if justice is just the replacement/restoration, that's one thing. If the person who did the damage MUST be the one to do the replacement, that's more vengeance, not justice.

I think you're right, Shadow, we would need an actual definition of 'justice' and 'vengeance,' not just examples.

Ideas of justice cover more than righting wrongs. Justice covers a vast array of human themes and emotions, such as accountability as it pertains to the above example. Vengeance by contrast is not necessarily about accountability. Vengeance appeals to the same primal part of your monkey brain that lit up when you were six because your sister got more cookies than you. Vengeance is an appeal to human selfishness in a way that Justice is not typically categorized.

On the whole I'd say that justice is more about finding solutions that are best for all parties involved, where as vengeance is a pure manifestation of one's selfish desire to "Get yours." even if it means everyone else is worse off as a whole. In this way, Vengeance is non-productive and possibly destructive.

It's quite easy to see the difference - let's suppose you get a call late at night from the police that your parents home has been vandalized/burglarized. You rush over there - your parents are safe, just a few items were stolen. What would your reaction be? To ask for more police protection, get a dog or some other home protection service, if not, asking them to move to a safer area

Well, at this time you run for a govt post - say Mayor of the town. You are elected. Now what would you do about the same areas where there is a lot of crime? Ask people to move out? Ask them to get guard dogs? suddenly your views change - now you want jobs, you want education, you want these felons to get another chance

Same person but now looking at things from a different viewpoint - the former view is Vengeance, the latter view is Justice

 

[Sarpedon]

Let me point this out: Neither Justice nor vengeance are natural things. Both are things that people invented. Obviously, justice is an improved version of vengeance, adapted for a larger and more complex society.

The faulty thinking of religion is that these are things imposed upon us from the outside, or are natural qualities of the Universe. These ideas are false.