Remember, The WWII Allied Powers only attacked combatants, right?

[Jarhyn]

Because apparently this comparison seems necessary for some inane reason...

I mean look at what the Allies did to Dresden they bombed it off the face of the map! How can you support the people who ganged up on the Nazis when they do stuff like bombing Dresden.

And look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they bombed whole cities full of journalists and noncombatants to glass and dust and pale shadows.

Look, I'm all for defeating the Nazis BUT...

/s


Or, maybe we can accept that sometimes terrible, tragic things happen in the pursuit of a just war, and that if you don't want a war, in which there will inevitably end up being tragedies such as this, that you have an obligation to stop the forces of fascism and authoritarian overreach before they put on their armbands (or MAGA hats) and try to take over the world.

What ARE you supposed to do, (let's say, as a citizen of Nazi Germany) when you are a citizen, in response to propaganda faucets against Allied actions?

 

[Metaphor]

Because apparently this comparison seems necessary for some inane reason...

I mean look at what the Allies did to Dresden they bombed it off the face of the map! How can you support the people who ganged up on the Nazis when they do stuff like bombing Dresden.

And look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they bombed whole cities full of journalists and noncombatants to glass and dust and pale shadows.

Look, I'm all for defeating the Nazis BUT...

/s


Or, maybe we can accept that sometimes terrible, tragic things happen in the pursuit of a just war, and that if you don't want a war, in which there will inevitably end up being tragedies such as this, that you have an obligation to stop the forces of fascism and authoritarian overreach before they put on their armbands (or MAGA hats) and try to take over the world.

What ARE you supposed to do, (let's say, as a citizen of Nazi Germany) when you are a citizen, in response to propaganda faucets against Allied actions?

You are not a citizen of Nazi Germany, and people wearing MAGA hats are not Nazis.

 

[Jarhyn]

Because apparently this comparison seems necessary for some inane reason...

I mean look at what the Allies did to Dresden they bombed it off the face of the map! How can you support the people who ganged up on the Nazis when they do stuff like bombing Dresden.

And look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they bombed whole cities full of journalists and noncombatants to glass and dust and pale shadows.

Look, I'm all for defeating the Nazis BUT...

/s


Or, maybe we can accept that sometimes terrible, tragic things happen in the pursuit of a just war, and that if you don't want a war, in which there will inevitably end up being tragedies such as this, that you have an obligation to stop the forces of fascism and authoritarian overreach before they put on their armbands (or MAGA hats) and try to take over the world.

What ARE you supposed to do, (let's say, as a citizen of Nazi Germany) when you are a citizen, in response to propaganda faucets against Allied actions?

You are not a citizen of Nazi Germany, and people wearing MAGA hats are not Nazis.

Keep telling yourself that. Maybe it will help you sleep at night when the right attempts their coup.

 

[Metaphor]

Because apparently this comparison seems necessary for some inane reason...

I mean look at what the Allies did to Dresden they bombed it off the face of the map! How can you support the people who ganged up on the Nazis when they do stuff like bombing Dresden.

And look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they bombed whole cities full of journalists and noncombatants to glass and dust and pale shadows.

Look, I'm all for defeating the Nazis BUT...

/s


Or, maybe we can accept that sometimes terrible, tragic things happen in the pursuit of a just war, and that if you don't want a war, in which there will inevitably end up being tragedies such as this, that you have an obligation to stop the forces of fascism and authoritarian overreach before they put on their armbands (or MAGA hats) and try to take over the world.

What ARE you supposed to do, (let's say, as a citizen of Nazi Germany) when you are a citizen, in response to propaganda faucets against Allied actions?

You are not a citizen of Nazi Germany, and people wearing MAGA hats are not Nazis.

Keep telling yourself that. Maybe it will help you sleep at night when the right attempts their coup.

Okay luv.

 

[PyramidHead]

The liberal mindset is basically that the situation is never bad enough to do anything but vote for the safest candidate with the most moderate policy proposals. Bad situations are things that have already happened and will never happen again, and they happened for no reason; World War II was when an evil wizard named Hitler decided to do bad things, and the good wizards banded together to stop him, and after they did, he was defeated forever and now we don't have to worry about that kind of trouble anymore.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The liberal mindset is basically that the situation is never bad enough to do anything but vote for the safest candidate with the most moderate policy proposals.

And by Post #5 we have the derail.

Bad situations are things that have already happened and will never happen again, and they happened for no reason; World War II was when an evil wizard named Hitler decided to do bad things, and the good wizards banded together to stop him, and after they did, he was defeated forever and now we don't have to worry about that kind of trouble anymore.

Oddly the argument is more against the Conservatives, who ended up voting for that asshole than the more moderate candidate.

 

[Jarhyn]

Keep telling yourself that. Maybe it will help you sleep at night when the right attempts their coup.

Okay luv.

Also, I notice you didn't actually answer the question:

What ARE you supposed to do, (let's say, as a citizen of Nazi Germany) when you are a citizen, in response to propaganda faucets against Allied actions?

 

[PyramidHead]

The liberal mindset is basically that the situation is never bad enough to do anything but vote for the safest candidate with the most moderate policy proposals.

And by Post #5 we have the derail.

It's not a derail to identify the root of the thinking expressed/lampooned by the OP.

Bad situations are things that have already happened and will never happen again, and they happened for no reason; World War II was when an evil wizard named Hitler decided to do bad things, and the good wizards banded together to stop him, and after they did, he was defeated forever and now we don't have to worry about that kind of trouble anymore.

Oddly the argument is more against the Conservatives, who ended up voting for that asshole than the more moderate candidate.

Yes, if only the bad wizard didn't get so many votes. That was the root of the problem, individual people with individual preferences happening to vote for Adolf Hitler. If only we had made #MoreLikeShitler trending, the whole thing could have been avoided

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they bombed whole cities full of journalists and noncombatants to glass and dust and pale shadows.

You do realize that this act even now remains highly controversial right? There are many of us who find this completely barbaric and unjustifiable.

But even then, at least it was a war. And they really were fighting against regimes engaged in genocide etc. Trump isn't Hitler. MAGA people are not Nazis. Street gang "vigilantes" are not American soldiers.

 

[Jarhyn]

And look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they bombed whole cities full of journalists and noncombatants to glass and dust and pale shadows.

You do realize that this act even now remains highly controversial right? There are many of us who find this completely barbaric and unjustifiable.

But even then, at least it was a war. And they really were fighting against regimes engaged in genocide etc. Trump isn't Hitler. MAGA people are not Nazis. Street gang "vigilantes" are not American soldiers.

Ah yes, the second head of the No-true-scotsman Hydra has appeared.

You didn't answer the question:

What ARE you supposed to do, (let's say, as a citizen of Nazi Germany) when you are a citizen, in response to propaganda faucets against Allied actions?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

In actual Nazi Germany? There isn't much you can do. I suppose you could take up arms and start an insurrection from within, or flee the country and join up with the other nations. What could loyalist British citizens do during the American war of independence? What could abolitionist southerners do during your civil war?

Your analogy is flawed in many ways. America isn't Nazi Germany. At least not yet. If you think Trump could become the next Hitler, your solution is simple and non-violent. Vote him out. As for the MAGA people, many of them can be won over. Most of them are not the racist assholes you think they are. And those who are racist assholes can be re-marginalized if you stop beating the drums of racial division and of identity politics that prop them up.

 

[PyramidHead]

Still think I was off-topic, Jimmy?

If you think Trump could become the next Hitler, your solution is simple and non-violent. Vote him out. As for the MAGA people, many of them can be won over. Most of them are not the racist assholes you think they are. And those who are racist assholes can be re-marginalized if you stop beating the drums of racial division and of identity politics that prop them up.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they bombed whole cities full of journalists and noncombatants to glass and dust and pale shadows.

You do realize that this act even now remains highly controversial right? There are many of us who find this completely barbaric and unjustifiable.

But even then, at least it was a war. And they really were fighting against regimes engaged in genocide etc. Trump isn't Hitler. MAGA people are not Nazis.

I suppose we need to ask the question "What are the difference between the Germans who would support the Nazis and the people that support Trump?" The Nazi label is a bit misleading, as the German people weren't exactly in the day-to-day Nazi party decision making, especially related to the Holocaust.

So, can someone who wants to defend the character of the Trump supporters, please explain to me the differences from them and those who supported the Nazi party pre-WWII.

 

[Enigma]

What ARE you supposed to do, (let's say, as a citizen of Nazi Germany) when you are a citizen, in response to propaganda faucets against Allied actions?

Perhaps you could take some sort of direct action, like finding a building where Nazis frequently meet with and discuss policies with other governmental officials and setting that building on fire?

 

[Jarhyn]

In actual Nazi Germany? There isn't much you can do. I suppose you could take up arms and start an insurrection from within, or flee the country and join up with the other nations. What could loyalist British citizens do during the American war of independence? What could abolitionist southerners do during your civil war?

Your analogy is flawed in many ways. America isn't Nazi Germany. At least not yet. If you think Trump could become the next Hitler, your solution is simple and non-violent. Vote him out. As for the MAGA people, many of them can be won over. Most of them are not the racist assholes you think they are. And those who are racist assholes can be re-marginalized if you stop beating the drums of racial division and of identity politics that prop them up.

In Nazi Germany, many people supporting the Nazis weren't the racist assholes who killed Jews in concentration camps. Sure, Hitler could have not been voted in. But he WAS voted in, and terrible things followed. Direct action by the citizens to remove Hitler would have been entirely appropriate, but in the aftermath, Germany enacted laws that are entirely reasonable to prevent the return of the Nazi party: they banned it, even at the expense of some elements that people in the US would consider "free speech".

Do you argue that was a bad thing Germany did, to insulate themselves against a return of Fascism through turning the government's guns against certain speech and political activities?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So, can someone who wants to defend the character of the Trump supporters, please explain to me the differences from them and those who supported the Nazi party pre-WWII.

This should be self evident. Many Trump supporters are not race oriented for one. They don't want to murder all the brown people. They want to keep undocumented illegal immigrants out of the country, for a variety of reasons. And for many of them that isn't even the driving force. Many of them have been duped into seeing Trump as a great businessman who will save their jobs and revitalize the economy. Many more of them support Trump merely because he is the Republican and they are conservatives who always vote conservative and dislike liberal policy.

The racial animosity is only a small fraction of Trump's support. There is no indication that Trump wants to do genocide on anybody. There is no indication that he wants to conquer other nations. The man is an egomaniac and an idiot but he isn't Hitler. He's Trump.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Germany enacted laws that are entirely reasonable to prevent the return of the Nazi party: they banned it, even at the expense of some elements that people in the US would consider "free speech".

Do you argue that was a bad thing Germany did, to insulate themselves against a return of Fascism through turning the government's guns against certain speech and political activities?

Banning the Nazi Party doesn't prevent the rise of fascism. It doesn't prevent another Hitler rising from the right or the left. Putting mechanisms into government that put checks on power are a good idea that I support. And I do think your country is lacking them. For example, why is your president allowed to pardon criminals without any explanation or agreement with Congress or the senate? That invites corruption. Why can the president do things by decree? These are not things Trump invented. They are things that he has highlighted and you may be the better for it if the next administration shuts them down.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So, can someone who wants to defend the character of the Trump supporters, please explain to me the differences from them and those who supported the Nazi party pre-WWII.

This should be self evident. The vast majority of Trump supporters are not race oriented for one. They don't want to murder all the brown people.

Were the Germans in the 20s flying banners about how to murder all the Jewish and Gypsies and other people of poor ethical heritage?

They want to keep undocumented illegal immigrants out of the country, for a variety of reasons.

And their support for creating more limitations to legal immigration policies is because...?

And for many of them that isn't even the driving force. Many of them have been duped into seeing Trump as a great businessman who will save their jobs and revitalize the economy. Many more of them support Trump merely because he is the Republican and they are conservatives who always vote conservative and dislike liberal policy.

Now maybe we are getting somewhere. How is that different than those that supported the Nazis previous to WWII?

The racial animosity is only a small fraction of Trump's support. There is no indication that Trump wants to do genocide on anybody.

And if we were talking genocide that'd matter to the conversation. Genocide wasn't a platform position when elections were being held. Right now this is a discussion about how a significant, though not overpowering group of people end up supporting a dictatorship movement. We had Boris Johnson attempt a Dictator maneuver in the UK, and his support in the UK didn't particularly change much, his base still supports him. Trump has been nothing but anti-American, dealing embarrassingly with North Korea, negotiating a politically expedient deal with the Taliban, mocking Iran, being uncomfortably chummy with Putin, instigating a tariff trade war with China (and our allies)... stuff that the right-wing would not have tolerated with a Democrat in charge.

When what a leader does has no consequences regarding support, you have reached a very dangerous threshold. It allows the Government to act without deference to responsibility or legality (see Gorsuch).

There is no indication that he wants to conquer other nations. The man is an egomaniac and an idiot but he isn't Hitler. He's Trump.

Thanks for the reminder, we are discussing the people who support Trump, not Trump himself.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

We are discussing a very stupid analogy. You have the power to vote Trump out. You have the power to vote in people who will put checks on power too. Why don't you do that instead of slandering an entire wide ranging group of people because they voted in a way you disagree with?

 

[PyramidHead]

The question that we need to be asking is: how do fascists consolidate their power? Do they just run campaigns to get people to vote for them? Or do they:

-Rig elections
-Eliminate or disenfranchise people whose votes would threaten them
-Sow constant suspicion and mistrust of the political left wing
-Partner with corporate power, especially in the media
-Hijack religious institutions to promote a nationalist agenda
-Keep the majority of people exhausted and overwhelmed
-Form international coalitions with sympathetic leaders in the rest of the world (Bolsnaro)
-Deliberately try to INSTALL such leaders in the rest of the world (Guaido)
-Utilize populations who can't speak for themselves as opportunities to frame narratives in your favor (the refuggee/caravan/immigrant "crisis")
-Isolate communication from populations most deeply affected by your actions (Kashmir)

The list goes on. Very few of these problems can be solved by me, a singular voter, casting a ballot in 2020. You have to collectively organize to push back against all the other abuses of power, because they are what makes your vote count for less and less, until it's basically indistinguishable from doing nothing.