Reports of at Least 20 Victims Amid Active Shooting Incident in San Bernardino

[crazyfingers]

It is literally to early to tell one way or the other. Any particular reason you are ready to jump to a conclusion?

Well I'm not an Islamophile so it's not difficult for me to accept that Muslims can do bad things in the name of Islam. Here are some of the reasons: a friend Chaz Harrison said he was a very passionate Muslim and didn't want to be in the US, Farook recently visited Saudi Arabia, and he murdered 14 people with a preplanned tactical assault with pipe bombs etc.

News reports have said that they went home AFTER the attack and set up their failed bomb/toy truck thing in their house which failed to go off. That suggests to me that they weren't actually long term planning this specific attack. If they were they would have set up their in-home bomb before going out.

I strongly suspect that they were planning something for the future but it sounds to me the guy went Postal prematurely.

 

[Nexus]

I strongly suspect that they were planning something for the future but it sounds to me the guy went Postal prematurely.

I agree this is plausible. But I'm certain whatever other attack they were planning was in the name of jihad and not for the animal liberation front.

 

[prideandfall]

As the story unfolds, it certainly has changed from one more mundane tale of some crazy American shooting people for some stupid reason into an interesting and engaging story where I'm curious to know what's going on.

really? i'm feeling quite the opposite.
i'm actually disappointed they were just militant muslim converts. it's so BORING and cliche... and will mean the conversation gets turned away from gun control or US terrorists or the general fucked-upded-ness of our country and just be about islam, or how now we need to strip search everyone who gets on a bus or something.

 

[laughing dog]

It is literally to early to tell one way or the other. Any particular reason you are ready to jump to a conclusion?

Well I'm not an Islamophile so it's not difficult for me to accept that Muslims can do bad things in the name of Islam. Here are some of the reasons: a friend Chaz Harrison said he was a very passionate Muslim and didn't want to be in the US, Farook recently visited Saudi Arabia, and he murdered 14 people with a preplanned tactical assault with pipe bombs etc.

Ah, I see. You jumped to a conclusion because someone said something. Muslims, like other people, can do bad things for a variety of reasons, including religion. At this point, it is pure speculation as to his motivation. Why not wait to get more information?

- - - Updated - - -

It is literally to early to tell one way or the other. Any particular reason you are ready to jump to a conclusion?

The same reason that it was reasonable to conclude that the Planned Parenthood guy would have been into some freaky Christian and anti-Obama crap. The obvious conclusion is generally the correct one.

When a middle-aged white guy shoots up an abortion clinic, it's possible that there's a second reason but that one statement gives you enough information to form an initial conclusion which you can be reasonably confident in.

When a Muslim guy and his wife get together with a bunch of guns and bombs to kill people, it's possible that there's a second reason, but that one statement gives you enough information to form an initial conclusion which you can be reasonably confident in.

I fail to see what one's confidence in a conclusions has to do with anything. Perhaps if you explained how one's "confidence" justifies jumping to conclusion instead of waiting for more information, your response would appear more convincing.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

As the story unfolds, it certainly has changed from one more mundane tale of some crazy American shooting people for some stupid reason into an interesting and engaging story where I'm curious to know what's going on.

really? i'm feeling quite the opposite.
i'm actually disappointed they were just militant muslim converts. it's so BORING and cliche... and will mean the conversation gets turned away from gun control or US terrorists or the general fucked-upded-ness of our country and just be about islam, or how now we need to strip search everyone who gets on a bus or something.

Yes, this seems to be clearly much more interesting and involved than a generic "GO ISLAM!!! Death to America!!! w00t!!!" type of event. But when a Muslim and his wife come back from Saudi Arabia, get a bunch of guns and bombs and shoot people, their primary motivation is not difficult to parse out and it's reasonable and rational to assume that you currently have enough information to come to conclusion about their motivations.

 

[TSwizzle]

Yes, this seems to be clearly much more interesting and involved than a generic "GO ISLAM!!! Death to America!!! w00t!!!" type of event. But when a Muslim and his wife come back from Saudi Arabia, get a bunch of guns and bombs and shoot people, their primary motivation is not difficult to parse out and it's reasonable and rational to assume that you currently have enough information to come to conclusion about their motivations.

I'm baffled as to what set Syed off. His handlers are probably ticked off that the jihad started prematurely.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I fail to see what one's confidence in a conclusions has to do with anything. Perhaps if you explained how one's "confidence" justifies jumping to conclusion instead of waiting for more information, your response would appear more convincing.

I'm not following you. Are you saying that you need to be 100% confident in a position before saying that you have sufficient information to form a conclusion (if so, what is your level of confidence in that statement)? Are you saying that forming a conclusion precludes you from also accepting that additional information which comes along in the future would cause you to change that conclusion (if so, is there any information which would cause you to change your mind and conclude something different)?

Or are you saying that you disagree with the statement that there is already sufficient information available for one to reasonably conclude that we already know enough to have figured out a major part of their motivations?

 

[PyramidHead]

How likely is it that a devout Muslim would allow his wife to accompany him on a shooting spree? I'm not being flippant, genuinely curious. The fact that his wife was involved in the shooting in a seemingly equal capacity to her husband doesn't jive with what I (think I) know about Muslim beliefs about the place of women in society and the household.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, this seems to be clearly much more interesting and involved than a generic "GO ISLAM!!! Death to America!!! w00t!!!" type of event. But when a Muslim and his wife come back from Saudi Arabia, get a bunch of guns and bombs and shoot people, their primary motivation is not difficult to parse out and it's reasonable and rational to assume that you currently have enough information to come to conclusion about their motivations.

I'm baffled as to what set Syed off. His handlers are probably ticked off that the jihad started prematurely.

This is what I'm getting too. The whole thing seems rather hacked together at the last minute considering the resources they had on them.

 

[dismal]

really? i'm feeling quite the opposite.
i'm actually disappointed they were just militant muslim converts. it's so BORING and cliche... and will mean the conversation gets turned away from gun control or US terrorists or the general fucked-upded-ness of our country and just be about islam, or how now we need to strip search everyone who gets on a bus or something.

Yes, this seems to be clearly much more interesting and involved than a generic "GO ISLAM!!! Death to America!!! w00t!!!" type of event. But when a Muslim and his wife come back from Saudi Arabia, get a bunch of guns and bombs and shoot people, their primary motivation is not difficult to parse out and it's reasonable and rational to assume that you currently have enough information to come to conclusion about their motivations.

But the fact they had just had a baby is proof they were against abortion and concerned about healthcare!!111

 

[Tom Sawyer]

But the fact they had just had a baby is proof they were against abortion and concerned about healthcare!!111

The fact that they gave the baby to the grandmother instead of using it as a shield against the cops' bullets means that they weren't evil enough to be Muslims.

 

[TSwizzle]

How likely is it that a devout Muslim would allow his wife to accompany him on a shooting spree? I'm not being flippant, genuinely curious. The fact that his wife was involved in the shooting in a seemingly equal capacity to her husband doesn't jive with what I (think I) know about Muslim beliefs about the place of women in society and the household.

Indeed, that does seem unusual but then again, female suicide bombers have been known albeit they are few and far between.

I saw Syed's brother in law making a statement and he really did look shocked and dumbfounded at what had happened. We all are I suppose.

 

[crazyfingers]

How likely is it that a devout Muslim would allow his wife to accompany him on a shooting spree? I'm not being flippant, genuinely curious. The fact that his wife was involved in the shooting in a seemingly equal capacity to her husband doesn't jive with what I (think I) know about Muslim beliefs about the place of women in society and the household.

That's another odd thing I was wondering about. I'd read that he went to Mecca and met her and she came back to the US with him. If this is jihad stuff, he might have picked it up from her. In the photos I've seen she was not dressed all in all conservative Muslim attire. She does not appear to be dominated by him.

Another very odd twist.

 

[dismal]

How likely is it that a devout Muslim would allow his wife to accompany him on a shooting spree? I'm not being flippant, genuinely curious. The fact that his wife was involved in the shooting in a seemingly equal capacity to her husband doesn't jive with what I (think I) know about Muslim beliefs about the place of women in society and the household.

That's another odd thing I was wondering about. I'd read that he went to Mecca and met her and she came back to the US with him. If this is jihad stuff, he might have picked it up from her. In the photos I've seen she was not dressed all in all conservative Muslim attire. She does not appear to be dominated by him.

Another very odd twist.

There is some doctrine (I forget the term) where radical muslims are allowed to do non-muslim things to blend in and make their jihad more successful.

eta: taqiyya?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Taqiyya

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Why have a hundred guns if the job only requires 4?

Ask any American gun nutter.

 

[maxparrish]

Why have a hundred guns if the job only requires 4?

Ask any American gun nutter.

Why would you ask us "gun nutters"? The folks I know who have four or more guns don't see "the job" as one of mass murder of innocents. Ask the those in that line of work.

 

[laughing dog]

I fail to see what one's confidence in a conclusions has to do with anything. Perhaps if you explained how one's "confidence" justifies jumping to conclusion instead of waiting for more information, your response would appear more convincing.

I'm not following you. Are you saying that you need to be 100% confident in a position before saying that you have sufficient information to form a conclusion (if so, what is your level of confidence in that statement)? Are you saying that forming a conclusion precludes you from also accepting that additional information which comes along in the future would cause you to change that conclusion (if so, is there any information which would cause you to change your mind and conclude something different)?

I'm saying confidence has nothing to do with the actual accuracy of the conclusion. I am also implying that when there is no need to rush to a conclusion, it is reasonable to take your time.

Or are you saying that you disagree with the statement that there is already sufficient information available for one to reasonably conclude that we already know enough to have figured out a major part of their motivations?

I am saying that as well.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I strongly suspect that they were planning something for the future but it sounds to me the guy went Postal prematurely.

I agree this is plausible. But I'm certain whatever other attack they were planning was in the name of jihad and not for the animal liberation front.

I'm not so sure. The way they carried out the attack and the nature of their targets -- not random people in a crowded place, but people they had known for years -- suggests this is probably more of the American-style "I'm mad as fuck and I'm not gonna take it anymore!" mass shooting than the "Allahu Akbar!" jihadist variety.

I am not disputing, as a matter of fact, that this COULD be a jihadist stunt or even an ISIS-backed operation. I'm pointing out that this has far more similarities with the Aurora Theater than it does with Downtown Paris. OTOH, we've Americanized everything else (pizza, hamburgers, Chinese food) so this could just be a uniquely American version of jihadist mayhem.

 

[crazyfingers]

I agree this is plausible. But I'm certain whatever other attack they were planning was in the name of jihad and not for the animal liberation front.

I'm not so sure. The way they carried out the attack and the nature of their targets -- not random people in a crowded place, but people they had known for years -- suggests this is probably more of the American-style "I'm mad as fuck and I'm not gonna take it anymore!" mass shooting than the "Allahu Akbar!" jihadist variety.

I am not disputing, as a matter of fact, that this COULD be a jihadist stunt or even an ISIS-backed operation. I'm pointing out that this has far more similarities with the Aurora Theater than it does with Downtown Paris. OTOH, we've Americanized everything else (pizza, hamburgers, Chinese food) so this could just be a uniquely American version of jihadist mayhem.

I think that we may actually be agreeing. I suspect that they were planning some terrorist attack of some kind in the future. But what they did yesterday seems very premature, as they say going postal against your cooworkers, becuase it seems that it was very improvised and scattered. For example I've read that after the attack they went home again and set up that failed bomb with the toy truck. If this really was what they planned to do they would have set the booby trap in their home before going out.

So while I suspect they were planning something, I am suspecting the guy just blew prematurely and did an unplanned attack yesterday.

 

[ImGod]

Good thing they weren't Syrian. That would have been embarrassing.