“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

[peacegirl]

There is no experiment that can experimentally demonstrate determinism or free will when it comes to making a choice. That makes determinism philosophical speculation not objective fact.

Yes there is.

And that experiment is?

Having a group of people who would create a small community using these principles. There would have to be no government or authority, along with the advance knowledge that there would be no blame or punishment no matter what they do, and there would be no telling anyone what to do because this gives the advance justification to do that very thing. Everyone would also use their standard of living as a basis for their starting salary, so that they would not lose one penny of their purchasing power. This would not be easy to set up, but it could be done. Truly though, there would be no reason to go through this when applying these principles worldwide could prevent war and crime and all of the deaths that go along with it. The skeptics can continue being skeptical, but when this knowledge is rigorously studied as it was meant to, it will be seen that this world is not only possible but inevitable. Why? Because we cannot move in a direction counter to our very nature which is to find ways to improve our world, not destroy it. There is no way we could find greater satisfaction living in an environment where nuclear devastation is just a click away by some tyrant --- where there would be no return to life as we know it --- especially when we now have the ability to prevent it. How long it will take depends on how quickly this knowledge can be confirmed valid and sound...and it will be in time.

 

[steve_bank]

It can work in small homogeneous groups.

A number of communes started in the 60s 70s.

One was The Farm and it is still around. Started by a group of west coast 'hippies'. The back to the land movement.

The Farm (Tennessee) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Farm was established after Stephen Gaskin and friends led a caravan of 60 buses, vans, and trucks from San Francisco on a four-month speaking tour across the US. Along the way, they became a community, lacking only land to put down roots. After returning to California, the decision was made to buy land together. Combining all their resources would finance purchase of only about fifty acres in California. Another month on the road brought the group back to Tennessee, where they checked out various places that might be suitable to settle.[5] They decided on property in Lewis County, about seventy miles south of Nashville.[6] After buying 1,064 acres (4.1 km2) for $70 per acre, the group began building its community in the woods alongside the network of crude logging roads that followed its ridgelines. Shortly thereafter, an adjoining 750 acres (3.0 km2) were purchased for $100 per acre.

From its founding in the 1970s, Farm members took vows of poverty and owned no personal possessions other than clothing and tools, though this restriction loosened as time passed. During that time, Farm members did not use artificial birth control, alcohol, tobacco,[7] or animal products. Many of the early buildings on the Farm were unconventional, ranging from converted school buses to modified 16 x 32 army tents. Over time, larger homes were constructed, each providing shelter for multiple families and single people, often with up to 40 people under one roof. Visitors were also housed in a two-story tent made by sewing two army tents together.

In the early days, Gaskin was considered to be the "abbot of the monastery" and made many of the governmental decisions for the group. His role was eventually taken over by a "council of elders" and then a "board of directors" consisting of some of the most respected and influential members of the Farm community.[5] The Farm formed a non-profit corporation called The Foundation to provide a common financial structure for the community and members contributed their incomes to it. A security crew constantly maintained a welcome center at the entrance gate where all traffic passed through and was logged in.

In the original manifestation of The Farm, all members were believers in the holiness of life, and believed in the reality of a spiritual dimension and in living out universal brotherhood.[7]

The Farm evolved. Initially ot was free love and drugs, pot and psychedelics. Some of the first rules that evolved were if you had sex you were engaged, if the woman got pregnant you were married.

Point being rules to maintain order evolved. The problem is always who and how rules are made, how they are enforced, and how conflicts and disputes are resolved.

https://thefarmcommunity.com/

Israel was fondled on the kibbutz. In the 70s I attended a presentation on campus by an Israeli looking for people to summer on his kibbutz.

Therese systems work when there is uniformity and not a lot of diversity. As long as it is easy to reach a consensus on decisions and problems.

Kibbutz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. 'gathering, clustering'; pl.: kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is an intentional community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1910, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises.[1] Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.[2] In recent decades, some kibbutzim have been privatized and changes have been made in the communal lifestyle. A member of a kibbutz is called a kibbutznik (Hebrew: קִבּוּצְנִיק / קיבוצניק; plural kibbutznikim or kibbutzniks), the suffix -nik being of Slavic origin.

In 2010, there were 270 kibbutzim in Israel with a total population of 126,000.[3] Their factories and farms account for 9% of Israel's industrial output, worth US$8 billion, and 40% of its agricultural output, worth over US$1.7 billion.[4] Some kibbutzim had also developed substantial high-tech and military industries. For example, in 2010, Kibbutz Sasa, containing some 200 members, generated US$850 million in annual revenue from its military-plastics industry.[5]
Currently the kibbutzim are organised in the secular Kibbutz Movement with some 230 kibbutzim, the Religious Kibbutz Movement with 16 kibbutzim and the much smaller religious Poalei Agudat Yisrael with two kibbutzim, all part of the wider communal settlement movement.

 

[peacegirl]

It can work in small homogeneous groups.

A number of communes started in the 60s 70s.

One was The Farm and it is still around. Started by a group of west coast 'hippies'. The back to the land movement.

The Farm (Tennessee) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Farm was established after Stephen Gaskin and friends led a caravan of 60 buses, vans, and trucks from San Francisco on a four-month speaking tour across the US. Along the way, they became a community, lacking only land to put down roots. After returning to California, the decision was made to buy land together. Combining all their resources would finance purchase of only about fifty acres in California. Another month on the road brought the group back to Tennessee, where they checked out various places that might be suitable to settle.[5] They decided on property in Lewis County, about seventy miles south of Nashville.[6] After buying 1,064 acres (4.1 km2) for $70 per acre, the group began building its community in the woods alongside the network of crude logging roads that followed its ridgelines. Shortly thereafter, an adjoining 750 acres (3.0 km2) were purchased for $100 per acre.

From its founding in the 1970s, Farm members took vows of poverty and owned no personal possessions other than clothing and tools, though this restriction loosened as time passed. During that time, Farm members did not use artificial birth control, alcohol, tobacco,[7] or animal products. Many of the early buildings on the Farm were unconventional, ranging from converted school buses to modified 16 x 32 army tents. Over time, larger homes were constructed, each providing shelter for multiple families and single people, often with up to 40 people under one roof. Visitors were also housed in a two-story tent made by sewing two army tents together.

Vows of poverty? This is the antithesis of what the economic system will be like. The poor will get rich, and the rich will get richer. No one will be poverty stricken. There will be no rules or authority. The only thing that will control behavior will be one's very own conscience, which will not allow someone to hurt another without a justification, not an external set of rules.

In the early days, Gaskin was considered to be the "abbot of the monastery" and made many of the governmental decisions for the group. His role was eventually taken over by a "council of elders" and then a "board of directors" consisting of some of the most respected and influential members of the Farm community.[5] The Farm formed a non-profit corporation called The Foundation to provide a common financial structure for the community and members contributed their incomes to it. A security crew constantly maintained a welcome center at the entrance gate where all traffic passed through and was logged in.

In the original manifestation of The Farm, all members were believers in the holiness of life, and believed in the reality of a spiritual dimension and in living out universal brotherhood.[7]

The Farm evolved. Initially ot was free love and drugs, pot and psychedelics. Some of the first rules that evolved were if you had sex you were engaged, if the woman got pregnant you were married.

Point being rules to maintain order evolved. The problem is always who and how rules are made, how they are enforced, and how conflicts and disputes are resolved.

https://thefarmcommunity.com/

There are many unconventional communities that could work on a smaller scale with their own set of rules and regulations. This discovery is not communal living.

Israel was fondled on the kibbutz. In the 70s I attended a presentation on campus by an Israeli looking for people to summer on his kibbutz.

Therese systems work when there is uniformity and not a lot of diversity. As long as it is easy to reach a consensus on decisions and problems.

Kibbutz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. 'gathering, clustering'; pl.: kibbutzim קִבּוּצִים / קיבוצים) is an intentional community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1910, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises.[1] Kibbutzim began as utopian communities, a combination of socialism and Zionism.[2] In recent decades, some kibbutzim have been privatized and changes have been made in the communal lifestyle. A member of a kibbutz is called a kibbutznik (Hebrew: קִבּוּצְנִיק / קיבוצניק; plural kibbutznikim or kibbutzniks), the suffix -nik being of Slavic origin.

In 2010, there were 270 kibbutzim in Israel with a total population of 126,000.[3] Their factories and farms account for 9% of Israel's industrial output, worth US$8 billion, and 40% of its agricultural output, worth over US$1.7 billion.[4] Some kibbutzim had also developed substantial high-tech and military industries. For example, in 2010, Kibbutz Sasa, containing some 200 members, generated US$850 million in annual revenue from its military-plastics industry.[5]
Currently the kibbutzim are organised in the secular Kibbutz Movement with some 230 kibbutzim, the Religious Kibbutz Movement with 16 kibbutzim and the much smaller religious Poalei Agudat Yisrael with two kibbutzim, all part of the wider communal settlement movement.

Kibbutzim work in small groups where everyone plays a part depending on what job they're given. It's a socialistic type of setup. There is nothing wrong with this movement, but it really has nothing to do with this discovery, which can prevent war in the Middle East, believe it or not.

 

[pood]

“I’ll take ‘not’ for $1,500, Ken.”

 

[steve_bank]

My point is people starting communities for one reason or another go back in our' and human sophistry. Philosophical movements. Theosophy and Rosicrucians still exist.

Today in the USA Mennonites and Amish are still around.

The problem as we have today in the USA is who makes the rules, how they are enforced, and how conflicts and problems are resolved.

Everybody just naturally gets along? That is premise of the society in Lost Horizon.

You can find like minded people, buy land, and set up a community as you pl;ease. Unless evryone thinks and acts the same way what happens when somebody sayss no I will not go along with what you say.

Have you read Lost Horizon? It us about a secret utopian society hidden away in the Himalayas.

Lost Horizon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The 1937 movie is a study in utopian concepts.

Lakeshore Classic Movies | Lost Horizon (1937) | PBS

Plane crash in the Himalayas leads group of survivors to the secluded land of Shangri-La.

www.pbs.org

 

[peacegirl]

My point is people starting communities for one reason or another go back in our' and human sophistry. Philosophical movements. Theosophy and Rosicrucians still exist.

Today in the USA Mennonites and Amish are still around.

The problem as we have today in the USA is who makes the rules, how they are enforced, and how conflicts and problems are resolved.

Everybody just naturally gets along? That is premise of the society in Lost Horizon.

This movie was fiction. This discovery is not. People don't just get along if there are conflicts. But many conflicts are caused by people not knowing who is in the right and who is in the wrong in terms of striking the first blow. When people know who has the right-of-way when desires conflict, you will see that many disagreements will be reduced to an absolute minimum.

You can find like minded people, buy land, and set up a community as you pl;ease. Unless evryone thinks and acts the same way what happens when somebody sayss no I will not go along with what you say.

How can that happen when no one is going to expect someone to go along with what they say? If there is a conflict, they can be resolved with a lawyer, if necessary, especially if it comes to business contracts, etc. But many conflicts won't even come up.

Have you read Lost Horizon? It us about a secret utopian society hidden away in the Himalayas.

Lost Horizon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The 1937 movie is a study in utopian concepts.

Lakeshore Classic Movies | Lost Horizon (1937) | PBS

Plane crash in the Himalayas leads group of survivors to the secluded land of Shangri-La.

www.pbs.org

There have been many communities and cults that have formed through the years, but for you to then conclude that this is just another one of them (dressed as something new) is incorrect.

 

[steve_bank]

I do conclude yours is 'just another one of many past and present'.

Before the reality of the Soviet Union became widely known over here there were those who thought it represented a utopia, even prominent people. On paper the Soviet Union looked good, workers in a workers paradise.

I doubt the one you follow based on whitings ever had to deal with practical human reality.

No mater the system you have the same human beings as they are.

How would your ideal world differ from the USA or any western democracy today?

BTW, I am retired, what's your excuse?

And how woud yiu structure yiur exerntal social ex]ermnt and what is it exactly it woud prove?

What is the detained goal of of a sociall experiment based on your principles? You mentioned behavior modification.

Would you set up an inexpert with volunteers and indoctrijnate them?

 

[peacegirl]

I do conclude yours is 'just another one of many past and present'.

Before the reality of the Soviet Union became widely known over here there were those who thought it represented a utopia, even prominent people. On paper the Soviet Union looked good, workers in a workers paradise.

Maybe it looked good from the outside, but it obviously wasn't good.

Socialist
The Soviet Union was a socialist state governed by the Communist Party of the Soviet Union12. It was a flagship communist state, and its capital was Moscow. The Bolsheviks, led by Vladimir Lenin, established the world's first communist government after the Russian Revolution of 19173. Communism existed in the Soviet Union until its fall in 19913.

I doubt the one you follow based on whitings ever had to deal with practical human reality.

That is not true. This is the most practical knowledge ever because it is not just an abstract theory. It works on a practical level.

No mater the system you have the same human beings as they are.

It is true that human beings are the same, but the environment will be completely different thereby changing human conduct in a big way.

How would your ideal world differ from the USA or any western democracy today?

This new world would not be democratic, communistic, or socialistic. I know it's hard to imagine how this would be possible, but these forms of government will disappear as the transition to a new way of life begins. Of course, this transition will be a necessary bridge from one world to the other and it will not be forced on anyone.

BTW, I am retired, what's your excuse?

And how woud yiu structure yiur exerntal social ex]ermnt and what is it exactly it woud prove?

It would prove that these principles work by preventing the first blow of hurt from ever being struck. Most heinous crimes are done because there is some form of justification to go ahead with the act. The most difficult part of this change in environment is the removal of anything redolent of blame and all forms of authority. You would think that people would become less responsible, but it does the exact opposite.

What is the detained goal of of a sociall experiment based on your principles? You mentioned behavior modification.

It is a change in behavior, but it isn't like Skinner's operant conditioning that reinforce certain behaviors through the reward system. In fact, just as there will be no punishment, there will be no need for external reward. People will do what they want to do because it brings them personal fulfillment. What they choose to do in life will be their business, without any persuasion from others who, in this world, often have ulterior motives.

Would you set up an inexpert with volunteers and indoctrijnate them?

There is no indoctrination. How can there be when no one is in power. There is no magistrate or king or president or guru. This is what you don't understand. This is not a secret society or a community that is run by a different set of rules.

 

[southernhybrid]

Apparently, it has been determined that this thread regarding determinism will go on for a long time, as some of you are determined to convince others that you know the answer to the question of which is true, hard determinism or soft determinism. And it's been determined that I will no longer participate in this thread in a serious way because it's been determined that I have a sense of humor and this thread needs some mindless humor. So, I am determined to add a little humor to this thread, even if it's determined that others will ignore it, probably because they have no choice. Regardless if my attempt at humor is determined to be corny, or useless, I must present it, due to my uncontrollable determination.

I’ve been trying to solve a complicated maths question to take my mind off my constipation. Today, using only a pencil and sheer determination...I finally worked it out.

Apparently they have determined that diarrhoea is now hereditary...
It’s known to run in jeans.

Ok. Go on. You know you can't help yourselves, or can you? I doubt that will ever be totally determined.

Sorry about that. Oh fuck. I'm not sorry. I couldn't help myself.

The internet is a wonderful thing. It even helps people find jokes or about determinism, assuming they are determined to find some and have enough time to waste.

 

[peacegirl]

Apparently, it has been determined that this thread regarding determinism will go on for a long time, as some of you are determined to convince others that you know the answer to the question of which is true, hard determinism or soft determinism.

Actually, there is no soft determinism. We either have no free will or we do. Soft determinism is just a way to try to fit free will in.

And it's been determined that I will no longer participate in this thread in a serious way because it's been determined that I have a sense of humor and this thread needs some mindless humor. So, I am determined to add a little humor to this thread, even if it's determined that others will ignore it, probably because they have no choice. Regardless if my attempt at humor is determined to be corny, or useless, I must present it, due to my uncontrollable determination.

Humor is a good thing when it's done in a respectful way. The author used comic relief, but he explained that it was not meant to take away from the seriousness of the work.

I’ve been trying to solve a complicated maths question to take my mind off my constipation. Today, using only a pencil and sheer determination...I finally worked it out.

Apparently they have determined that diarrhoea is now hereditary...
It’s known to run in jeans.

Ok. Go on. You know you can't help yourselves, or can you? I doubt that will ever be totally determined.

Sorry about that. Oh fuck. I'm not sorry. I couldn't help myself.

The internet is a wonderful thing. It even helps people find jokes or about determinism, assuming they are determined to find some and have enough time to waste.

Your jokes are silly and they may lighten things up a little. That's okay as long as you don't go overboard. And btw, you could not have done otherwise by not making jokes at that moment. But you also weren't hurting anyone. If you were, you would not have been able to do it, that is, in the new world.