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Rick Perry Indicted.

The "thuggishness" of national politics primarily (but not exclusively) stems from Democrats. In particular, the corruption of the law by prosecutors against national Republican figures seems most pervasive. Ted Stevens, Scott Walker, Tom Delay, Kay Baily Hutchenson, and now Rick Perry come to mind. It's the political expression of a larger related issue, prosecutorial misconduct and criminality through out the criminal justice system.

There is nothing inconsistent with supporting impeachment of the President and objecting to a prosecutor's corruption of the law - one ought to object to real abuse of power.

Hmmm. I've heard a lot of Republicans say the same thing. Funny that. Apparently the court system is easily manipulated, prone to misuse and abuse, politically motivated, and corrupt. Nation-wide mind you. Except when it involves dark people. Then the courts are a beacon of truth in the night, lighting the way to justice. Also when supporting the death penalty, then innocence is all but impossible, because as we all know, justice is blind.

I can't speak for Republicans, but I can speak for those conservatively-libertarian inclined folks who see the injustice in American law and courts. One only need to visit sites like Mark Steyn or Volokh to expose oneself to such criticism. However, whereas "we" focus on the problem of 'the system' effects on the commons, the left tends to be obsessed with race outcomes. Sentencing, for the left, is a problem because blacks seems to be disproportionate in impact, for us it is because the laws and sentencing structure itself is ridiculous.

There are tons of "innocence" projects (which I fully support) but look for organizations that focus on drastic reform of the power and processes of the state...not many.
 
Second, McCrum "is being portrayed as a “Republican” by some hack Democrat shills (but) he has been described by one supporter as a “Democrat” — his only contribution to a candidate for political office was to a Congressional Democrat."

wrong

He hasn't made a lot of contributions but what little he has given has gone more to republicans than democrats.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/poli...ne-to-partisanship-say-those-who-know-him.ece

According to campaign finance records, McCrum has made only a handful of contributions to state and federal candidates.

He gave $300 in 2007 to Steve Hilbig, a Republican judge on the state appeals court based in San Antonio.

Also that year, McCrum donated $500 to U.S. Rep. Charlie Gonzalez, a San Antonio Democrat.

The next year, he contributed $500 to Republican Robert “Bert” Richardson, a Bexar County district court judge. Richardson assigned McCrum as the special prosecutor after a watchdog group filed its abuse-of-office complaint against Perry.
 
wrong

He hasn't made a lot of contributions but what little he has given has gone more to republicans than democrats.

You are undone again, once more because you don't read EXACTLY what I stated. I stated the ONLY contribution made to a race for a POLITICAL position was to a DEMOCRAT. Judgeships are not considered political positions. And , as you said, he got his job AFTER he made a contribution to the Republican judge.
 
wrong

He hasn't made a lot of contributions but what little he has given has gone more to republicans than democrats.

You are undone again, once more because you don't read EXACTLY what I stated. I stated the ONLY contribution made to a race for a POLITICAL position was to a DEMOCRAT. Judgeships are not considered political positions. And , as you said, he got his job AFTER he made a contribution to the Republican judge.

You know, I thought of that before I posted but then I thought to myself, "Nah, max wouldn't make a post that disingenuous."

I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.
 
You are undone again, once more because you don't read EXACTLY what I stated. I stated the ONLY contribution made to a race for a POLITICAL position was to a DEMOCRAT. Judgeships are not considered political positions. And , as you said, he got his job AFTER he made a contribution to the Republican judge.

You know, I thought of that before I posted but then I thought to myself, "Nah, max wouldn't make a post that disingenuous."

I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Then you should have pointed out why I was disingenuous, rather than saying "WRONG". Moreover, as contributions to judgeships are an important part of necessary collegial relations between lawyers and judges, it does not mean much. (Indeed any lawyer would be wise to spread the money around). However contributions to a political position (e.g. representative) is far more likely for reasons of political belief.
 
http://mediatrackers.org/national/2...ve-democratic-party-delegate-jury-proceedings

Rho Chalmers, who disclosed to the Houston Chronicle yesterday that she was a member of the grand jury that indicted Texas Gov. Rick Perry, was an active delegate to the Texas Democratic Party convention during grand jury proceedings.
. . .
More troubling, however, is the fact that Chalmers attended, photographed, and commented on an event with Democratic state Sen. Kirk Watson while grand jury proceedings were ongoing.

Watson was a witness in front of the grand jury.

This doesn't look good for the prosecution.
 
It is not true, it is a dangerous undermining of electoral laws and due process.
So you say. Would you mind telling us what specific law is undermined? Please specify an element in the judicial concept of "substantive due process" that is undermined? Or is this just "truthiness", a claim to know intuitively because it "feels right"?

...But to assert that is his "business" as governor is ridiculous.
How so? I am not saying I like that business aspect of politics, but it is part of the widely acknowledged reality of our political system. Moreover, it certainly seems to be an ethical act for an ethical reason - he (and many others) did not believe that a state-wide integrity and ethics enforcement unit should be directed by a woman who was not only massively drunk behind the wheel, but also acted without integrity or ethics during her arrest and booking (trying to use the Sheriff to get her out of the arrest). Political pressure, using political powers, is one legal means to rid the people that are a disgrace, even if Travis County ideologists refuse to believe that the ethics of their leadership has anything to do with their mission to maintain, ironically, the ethics and integrity of officeholders.

"...you view unofficial channels of political pressure as THE standard way by which elected officials should be removed from office."
Perhaps you ought to look up the dictionary meaning of the words you use before you attempt to characterize my views. "Official" means an authority's authorized duties, powers, and ACTIONS. The action of a governor's line item veto is an "official" action...he didn't 'unofficially' issue a veto. And the meaning of the word "standard" is ordinary or customary (not exclusively).

So I view the official channel of veto, for the purposes of exerting political pressure for an ethical ends, as one way to achieve those ends. As elected Texas officials very rarely get removed it is difficult to say what is "standard". So what I can say is that Texas law provides two means of terminating elected officials; impeachment or a court suit. However, nothing in Texas law precludes encouraging resignation by other means, including official and politically motivated means. And unless you can prove that Perry had an immoral purpose behind his veto, I cannot even fault him on a moral/ethical basis.

...Yes, that is a way to blackmail and coerce an elected official out of office, threaten to put their colleagues out of work and harm the public by eliminating an office that serves and protects the public for no other reason than to personally punish that person.

No one denies it could serve his goals, just that it is dangerous, reckless, anti-democratic, and an abuse of power toward an end that no sane person thinks the veto should or was intended to be used for. ...
Colorful hyperbolics but meaningless rhetoric. There is no "abuse of power" regardless of what you think a "sane person thinks". There is no specific limit on what vetoes can be used for in Texas law, and certainly the veto can be used to eliminate programs that you treasure.

Using official powers to veto whatever line item he likes, even for a political purpose, is within his rights. It is ubiquitous in American government and only illegal when it transgresses a specific exception to that power. And it is only corrupt or illegal when it is used for an immoral or illegal purpose; getting rid of a drunk and/or special investigative unit is not in and of itself ethically corrupt or illegal.

...He didn't use "pressure" he used threats towards her to harm other people and the public. That is grossly unethical no matter how he made those threats, but to do it via veto power is an abuse of that power to make an unethical threat to undermine the democratic will to have that office in place to oversee just the kind of unethical actions he threatened to engage in to achieve his ends.
All you did is rattle off a stream of unsupported characterizations and 'truthies'. Yes, vetos harm folks, some unintentionally. However he is not undermining 'democratic will'; even with youor socalled "offical" means depends on the punishment decision of a single judge...not on a 'no-confidence' vote of the people. And Rick Perry, in case you forgot, was elected by the people to protect the common weal with the legal powers at his disposal.

Firing this drunk and abusive woman, who violated clear statutory grounds for her termination, is not within the Governor's constitutional power - using the line item veto to pressure her to resign is.

No, they did not give Perry the power the blackmail his opponents out of elected office.
Show us the statute which says anything similar to "The Governor shall be granted powers that allow him/her to remove elected officials from office via threats and coercion.

Again, let's look at the common meaning of the words you use to decorate your accusations. "Blackmail is an act involving unjustified threats to make a gain or cause loss to another unless a demand is met." Perry made a justified threat, hardly debatable given her actions and the Texas law on grounds for removal. And in regards to granted powers...see below...

Actual political pressure is a just form of social pressure available to all humans and not a power "given" to us...IF the rules of government were intended to give him special powers to coerce people out of office, then the rules would simply eliminate all elective offices and replace them with Governor appointments or give the governor direct veto power over all State elections and direct power to fire them. ...It is of course possible for him to use powers he was given to coerce people out of office, but that is an unintended misuse and unethical abuse of those powers.
Political pressure is using a political means (or end) to influence political actors. The powers of a legislature and executive branch is written in the Constitution and the laws. Any law (Constitutional or statutory) that grants power over legislation, appointments, implementation, or administration is what it says it is; if a law grants taxing power to the legislature and it makes no exceptions on who they can tax, no one would seriously plead that "Oh the legislature didn't mean to tax butchers and candle stick makers because they do good, no one gave the legislature that power to tax good people".

The law said "The legislature has the power to tax the people" with NO EXCEPTIONS; they can tax candle stick makers and butchers and "those who do good" because they were not exempted from the law.

The governor of Texas has line item veto power; there is no known exemption to that power written in the law itself. He may veto any line item funding in the budget, be it for the support of disabled and incarcerated inmates of "Madhouse State" or because he thinks the ethics unit has a crazy and sleazy leader or is on an absurd mission. And he may threaten to use his legal power to obtain any legal end under State and Constitutional law; and there is nothing in the law that says dumping the head of an office of integrity is not a legal end.

Your argument amounts Perry using a kitchen knife that came with the Governor's mansion to stab someone, then claiming "they gave him that power".
If there is a law that says the governor may use a kitchen knife on persons, it may be used to stab persons. And if it says he may use it to delete line items, he may do so. ONLY when such use violates a specific law that takes precedence (eg the State or applicable Federal Constitution) is the Governor restricted.

Perry and what he did is as scummy as any prosecutor, so that's not much of a solution. Oh, and you basically just admitted that you have no regard for the rule of law and want your politicians to undermine it whenever it serves their and your political aims.
You have to be joking.
 
http://mediatrackers.org/national/2...ve-democratic-party-delegate-jury-proceedings

Rho Chalmers, who disclosed to the Houston Chronicle yesterday that she was a member of the grand jury that indicted Texas Gov. Rick Perry, was an active delegate to the Texas Democratic Party convention during grand jury proceedings.
. . .
More troubling, however, is the fact that Chalmers attended, photographed, and commented on an event with Democratic state Sen. Kirk Watson while grand jury proceedings were ongoing.

Watson was a witness in front of the grand jury.

This doesn't look good for the prosecution.

Interesting tidbits. All I had found were two nameless grand jurors with wounded pride - the criticism from every direction seems to be upsetting them (understandably). One juror accused critics of 'playing games' and another fumed "read the law". One supposes they didn't appreciate legal experts and academics of stature telling them what the law was...McCrum was their inhouse provider of wisdom.

This whole thing is too absurd - worthy of a Soviet styled "people's tribunal" for enemies of the state.
 
wrong

He hasn't made a lot of contributions but what little he has given has gone more to republicans than democrats.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/poli...ne-to-partisanship-say-those-who-know-him.ece

According to campaign finance records, McCrum has made only a handful of contributions to state and federal candidates.

He gave $300 in 2007 to Steve Hilbig, a Republican judge on the state appeals court based in San Antonio.

Also that year, McCrum donated $500 to U.S. Rep. Charlie Gonzalez, a San Antonio Democrat.

The next year, he contributed $500 to Republican Robert “Bert” Richardson, a Bexar County district court judge. Richardson assigned McCrum as the special prosecutor after a watchdog group filed its abuse-of-office complaint against Perry.

"ZMFOG!! REpublcan@@11!" is not actually a legal argument.

Do you think it would be possible for you (Or anyone else) to post an argument that involves what statutes Perry violated and what reason you have to believe he violated them?

This is the thing that seems to be eluding both commentators on the left and the right.

This is the thing that has Perry acting like someone just dropped a gift in his lap.
 
Naw, they enjoy tossing out "blackmail" and "coercion" and "abuse of power" without a clue to its legal meaning.
 
wrong

He hasn't made a lot of contributions but what little he has given has gone more to republicans than democrats.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/poli...ne-to-partisanship-say-those-who-know-him.ece

"ZMFOG!! REpublcan@@11!" is not actually a legal argument.

Do you think it would be possible for you (Or anyone else) to post an argument that involves what statutes Perry violated and what reason you have to believe he violated them?

This is the thing that seems to be eluding both commentators on the left and the right.

This is the thing that has Perry acting like someone just dropped a gift in his lap.

wtf are you talking about? The post you responded to has nothing to do with defending the indictment. I was correcting max's very disingenuous claim about McCrum's political donations.
 
"ZMFOG!! REpublcan@@11!" is not actually a legal argument.

Do you think it would be possible for you (Or anyone else) to post an argument that involves what statutes Perry violated and what reason you have to believe he violated them?

This is the thing that seems to be eluding both commentators on the left and the right.

This is the thing that has Perry acting like someone just dropped a gift in his lap.

wtf are you talking about? The post you responded to has nothing to do with defending the indictment. I was correcting max's very disingenuous claim about McCrum's political donations.

So, you (and no one else) seems to have a defense for the indictment (aka the topic) so this is the sort of thing you argue about.
 
wtf are you talking about? The post you responded to has nothing to do with defending the indictment. I was correcting max's very disingenuous claim about McCrum's political donations.

So, you (and no one else) seems to have a defense for the indictment (aka the topic) so this is the sort of thing you argue about.

Yeah, because this post automatically makes any argument ksen, or anyone else has previously made in this thread null and void.
 
So, you (and no one else) seems to have a defense for the indictment (aka the topic) so this is the sort of thing you argue about.

Yeah, because this post automatically makes any argument ksen, or anyone else has previously made in this thread null and void.

Oh, can you point me to where someone performed a legal analysis and found these charges to be valid and well supported?

Or feel free to take a shot at it yourself.

I'm guessing you won't.
 
Maybe dismal isn't aware that this has been through the grand jury process and they were convinced the legal analysis presented to them was valid and well supported enough to hand down an indictment.
 
Maybe dismal isn't aware that this has been through the grand jury process and they were convinced the legal analysis presented to them was valid and well supported enough to hand down an indictment.

I am sure he is well aware of it, just as he (and others) are well aware of the legal experts showing whatever motivated the grand jury, they are almost certainly pulling the law out of their asses. One can speculate as to how a group of lay people from the most liberal county in Texas (one of them a Democratic convention delegate) could end up thinking that 'abuse of office' was whatever they 'felt' it was, but we do know that legally there is nothing there.

Mind you, trial juries also rarely understand the law so Perry may yet be convicted (especially if the trial is in Travis county) but he will be vindicated in appeals - but not before his reputation destroyed. We can put this grand jury with the OJ Simpson and Rodney King juries - on a remote island somewhere so society does not have to suffer their presence.

THAT SAID: We don't need to discuss the law IF the discussion is on the morality or ethics of what Perry did, rather than the legality. Perhaps posters should carefully distinguish in what sense they mean "blackmail", "abuse of power", etc.
 
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Maybe dismal isn't aware that this has been through the grand jury process and they were convinced the legal analysis presented to them was valid and well supported enough to hand down an indictment.

Oh then your work should be easy. You can summarize the airtight legal analysis that was done to obtain the indictment. And supplement it with all the crack legal analyses done by crack legal analysts that think the indictment was based on airtight legal analysis. Even though those don't seem to exist.
 
Yeah, because this post automatically makes any argument ksen, or anyone else has previously made in this thread null and void.

Oh, can you point me to where someone performed a legal analysis and found these charges to be valid and well supported?

So, a simple "defense for the indictment" has now moved several yards past the endzone to become "a legal analysis"?

Nice one, dismal, keep moving those goal posts.

Or feel free to take a shot at it yourself.

I'm guessing you won't.

I'm just a dispassionate observer on this topic. It seems to me like a politically motivated response by the democrats to a politically motivated action by Gov. Perry. I don't expect it to go anywhere, and doubt it will hurt Gov. Perry in Texas, but if it drags on too long it could hurt his Presidential aspirations. Not that I think he had a snowball's chance in hell of obtaining the GOP nomination, much less winning the general election, to begin with. I just enjoy pointing out your typical discussion antics when I notice them.
 
Maybe dismal isn't aware that this has been through the grand jury process and they were convinced the legal analysis presented to them was valid and well supported enough to hand down an indictment.

Oh then your work should be easy. You can summarize the airtight legal analysis that was done to obtain the indictment. And supplement it with all the crack legal analyses done by crack legal analysts that think the indictment was based on airtight legal analysis. Even though those don't seem to exist.

nah
 
Oh then your work should be easy. You can summarize the airtight legal analysis that was done to obtain the indictment. And supplement it with all the crack legal analyses done by crack legal analysts that think the indictment was based on airtight legal analysis. Even though those don't seem to exist.

nah

Yeah, I didn't think so.

The defenders of the indictment never seem to want to talk about all that icky legal stuff. That should tell us all we need to know.

And, yes, I'm sure as you read that you were ready to claim you are not actually defending the indictment. Which leaves to wonder WTF you are doing in this thread.
 
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