Roe v Wade is on deck

[Rhea]

The sex drive is the problem..

I would posit that the sex drive is not the problem. The problem is the judging of it.

 

[Jarhyn]

The sex drive is the problem..

I would posit that the sex drive is not the problem. The problem is the judging of it.

Well, the judging of it and the fact that it is the bait of a biological 'babymaking' trap.

Some people just really love their Naturalistic Fallacy though, and absolutely hate when we disarm any kind of biological trap*.

*Assuming it affects women. If it effects men, it'll be fixed ASAP.

 

[Gospel]

Thanks, Rhea and others. Those were great answers. I'm terrible at finding the right words most of the time. I don't think leisure was a good choice. I meant something along the lines of abortion having been made available being treated no different from purchasing a can of Pepsi. Well no matter, I have a better understand now.

 

[Rhea]

Thanks, Rhea and others. Those were great answers. I'm terrible at finding the right words most of the time. I don't think leisure was a good choice. I meant something along the lines of abortion having been made available being treated no different from purchasing a can of Pepsi. Well no matter, I have a better understand now.

You’re welcome. Thanks for the thoughtful questions.

For the record, getting a condom is as easy as getting a can of pepsi. So is piercing your ears (or your nipples). You can do many things to your own body as easily as getting a can of pepsi.

It is possible that the disconnect for you comes from years of being taught that you have a right to determine what women do with their bodies. That once they have sex, they are public vessels.

Women will point out, “so what if it’s as easy as getting a pepsi. If you don’t want an abortion/pepsi, don’t get one,” and by that they mean, “can I remind you that this is my body and not yours?”

 

[Jarhyn]

Thanks, Rhea and others. Those were great answers. I'm terrible at finding the right words most of the time. I don't think leisure was a good choice. I meant something along the lines of abortion having been made available being treated no different from purchasing a can of Pepsi. Well no matter, I have a better understand now.

You’re welcome. Thanks for the thoughtful questions.

For the record, getting a condom is as easy as getting a can of pepsi. So is piercing your ears (or your nipples). You can do many things to your own body as easily as getting a can of pepsi.

It is possible that the disconnect for you comes from years of being taught that you have a right to determine what women do with their bodies. That once they have sex, they are public vessels.

Women will point out, “so what if it’s as easy as getting a pepsi. If you don’t want an abortion/pepsi, don’t get one,” and by that they mean, “can I remind you that this is my body and not yours?”

So, not trying to impugn that Gospel needs 'splaining anymore...

But you do realize that there have been a few threads as of late I've participated in wherein Metaphor, Emily, and a number of other posters have repeatedly deigned to tell people-who-are-not-them what they may do, may not do, must allow to happen, or that they must otherwise accept the vision others (including the unthinking not-people stuff that is "DNA" or mere not-thinking-organs) have for their bodies, rather than their own personal desires... And even bringing up thought-crime style insistence that people are expected to want children, and that their insistence that they don't is not allowed as a motivator for bodily autonomy.

 

[Gospel]

Thanks, Rhea and others. Those were great answers. I'm terrible at finding the right words most of the time. I don't think leisure was a good choice. I meant something along the lines of abortion having been made available being treated no different from purchasing a can of Pepsi. Well no matter, I have a better understand now.

You’re welcome. Thanks for the thoughtful questions.

For the record, getting a condom is as easy as getting a can of pepsi. So is piercing your ears (or your nipples). You can do many things to your own body as easily as getting a can of pepsi.

It is possible that the disconnect for you comes from years of being taught that you have a right to determine what women do with their bodies. That once they have sex, they are public vessels.

Women will point out, “so what if it’s as easy as getting a pepsi. If you don’t want an abortion/pepsi, don’t get one,” and by that they mean, “can I remind you that this is my body and not yours?”

No, I never felt I had the right to dictate anyone's life for anything. When it comes to abortion I feel the option should be available to all, yet not treated like getting a tattoo. There is just something clearly different about getting an abortion and getting a tattoo.

 

[Rhea]

It is possible that the disconnect for you comes from years of being taught that you have a right to determine what women do with their bodies. That once they have sex, they are public vessels.

Women will point out, “so what if it’s as easy as getting a pepsi. If you don’t want an abortion/pepsi, don’t get one,” and by that they mean, “can I remind you that this is my body and not yours?”

No, I never felt I had the right to dictate anyone's life for anything. When it comes to abortion I feel the option should be available to all, yet not treated like getting a tattoo. There is just something clearly different about getting an abortion and getting a tattoo.

FOR YOU.

But your comment opens the discussion to why you should get to decide how women treat their own medical procedures.
So I’m curious, why you think that women are not treating their abortions “correctly?”

Isn’t it their body?

This is a calm question of discussion, not an attack. I’m curious why you think you get to say how they treat it? I hope you’re willing to explore this. Do you feel - maybe without knowing it - that their bodies are yours to decide? That you have some ownership of women’s bodies once they’ve had sex? Even when it wasn’t with you, but it’s just some random woman wanting an abortion for reasons you don’t think are legit? “They should not treat it like getting a tattoo.” Why not?

I will point out, as Jimmy did above, that women do not treat it like getting a tattoo, “Hey girl! Let’s go to the abortion shop and get some abortions this weekend! It’ll be great!” I will say that NO woman treats it like that.

So I’m interested to explore why they should care what you think about their abortion attitudes? It’s a medical procedure. It’s not fun. No one does it on a whim.

Some people seem to indicate that the women are not publicly sharing enough of their trauma with others to get social permission for the medical procedure. That they have to cry, or regret, or never do it more than once. That women need this social approval before they should be allowed to have body autonomy - which would not be autonomy at all, it would be ownership.

But the truth is a woman can need this procedure more than once, and it is her choice every time. And she does not need to pass any of your (or anyone’s) attitude tests for it to be perfectly okay for her to have this procedure. She doesn’t owe you an explanation. Because you don’t own her body.

 

[Jarhyn]

It is possible that the disconnect for you comes from years of being taught that you have a right to determine what women do with their bodies. That once they have sex, they are public vessels.

Women will point out, “so what if it’s as easy as getting a pepsi. If you don’t want an abortion/pepsi, don’t get one,” and by that they mean, “can I remind you that this is my body and not yours?”

No, I never felt I had the right to dictate anyone's life for anything. When it comes to abortion I feel the option should be available to all, yet not treated like getting a tattoo. There is just something clearly different about getting an abortion and getting a tattoo.

FOR YOU.

But your comment opens the discussion to why you should get to decide how women treat their own medical procedures.
So I’m curious, why you think that women are not treating their abortions “correctly?”

Isn’t it their body?

This is a calm question of discussion, not an attack. I’m curious why you think you get to say how they treat it? I hope you’re willing to explore this. Do you feel - maybe without knowing it - that their bodies are yours to decide? That you have some ownership of women’s bodies once they’ve had sex? Even when it wasn’t with you, but it’s just some random woman wanting an abortion for reasons you don’t think are legit? “They should not treat it like getting a tattoo.” Why not?

I will point out, as Jimmy did above, that women do not treat it like getting a tattoo, “Hey girl! Let’s go to the abortion shop and get some abortions this weekend! It’ll be great!” I will say that NO woman treats it like that.

So I’m interested to explore why they should care what you think about their abortion attitudes? It’s a medical procedure. It’s not fun. No one does it on a whim.

Some people seem to indicate that the women are not publicly sharing enough of their trauma with others to get social permission for the medical procedure. That they have to cry, or regret, or never do it more than once. That women need this social approval before they should be allowed to have body autonomy - which would not be autonomy at all, it would be ownership.

But the truth is a woman can need this procedure more than once, and it is her choice every time. And she does not need to pass any of your (or anyone’s) attitude tests for it to be perfectly okay for her to have this procedure. She doesn’t owe you an explanation. Because you don’t own her body.

So, maybe I'm interjecting where I don't belong. Tell me if you feel I am, and I will do my best to understand and see if that reasoning will drive me to agree..

I was born with a penis and testicles. I'll die without at least some subset thereof, if I have anything to say about it. So, I get bodily autonomy. I shouldn't have to apologise for that to anyone.

But, I do get to choose, by choosing to pursue reason, and by reason choosing to pursue my principles, and in my principles choosing to make some manner of personal moral judgement on the conduct and flippancy over what are in my estimation decisions that deserve somber and sober thought.

I have already posed it: I would see myself be one who could carry a child. I would not expect this of anyone, but I would expect people to be somber about ending something alive, though not a person. It's to me too close to killing to allow flippancy about it. I can't respect, I can't hold respect for someone who doesn't take life, it's beginnings and it's endings and decisions between it lightly.

It has nothing to do with the act. I feel the same way about butchering rats for my cats. I feel it about both bats I had to kill. I feel it about the guy whose car I had the barrel of a machine gun leveled at. Just thinking about that last one makes me cry. I'm crying right now about it, happy I didn't have to but terrified in knowing I would have and with some part of me still questioning... because when people behave like that, there's a really unfortunate chance you're about to get exploded on. I don't like talking about that.

The reason I judge? I refuse to accept as a moral person anyone who does not deeply consider every life they have some agency in the starting or ending of, and remember those lives, because flippancy about Life and Death is the realm of sociopathy.

Edit: that said, and in what was a degree of emotion I can't not hold over the subject, it is merely flippancy over such things. I will not judge any decision made except a decision made without consideration, and without a somber heart. Then, I don't think most, if any appreciable number, would ever not think so deeply about what had happened. I also know for a fact that my husband would get an abortion if he got pregnant, and I would support it no matter how much I want to be a parent, because we are not ready and it's his view that his genetics are not appropriate to put into anyone that he could ostensibly claim to hold love for. But that too is a deeply considered decision.

I will admit to caring little for the yellow sac spiders in my house, and killing those fairly freely. I still would rather not have to kill them, but they have bitten my husband a few times in his sleep, and possibly myself as well. Normal insects I care less still about because they are legion, and have evolved to not be particularly attached to individuality as a species. But even so, I still think about it when I kill them, and wish I didn't have to to maintain a clean home.

 

[Rhea]

So, maybe I'm interjecting where I don't belong. Tell me if you feel I am, and I will do my best to understand and see if that reasoning will drive me to agree..

I was born with a penis and testicles. I'll die without at least some subset thereof, if I have anything to say about it. So, I get bodily autonomy. I shouldn't have to apologise for that to anyone.

But, I do get to choose, by choosing to pursue reason, and by reason choosing to pursue my principles, and in my principles choosing to make some manner of personal moral judgement on the conduct and flippancy over what are in my estimation decisions that deserve somber and sober thought.

To understand, it helps to think about all the times when you did not think it was your responsibility to use your body to help someone not die. This is one way to separate, “I judge other people for what they do with their bodies, and I have a right to do that,” from “It truly is their body and by judging, I am assuming tha they owe me something, and they really don’t.”



I, for example, am a blood donor. I am also a registered marrow donor. I am also a registered organ donor.

It turns out that only a tiny minority of people are blood donors. An even smaller number are registered to donate organs if they die. An even smaller number still have taken marrow donor compatibility tests to get on a registry.


So where are all those pro-lifers? People are dying because there are not enough organ donors. People are dying because they can’t find a match for marrow, since no one will test and dwell on the list - knowing they might get called, and it might be inconvenient.

So let me ask you. Are you flip about that? Do you take it lightly? Are you signed up to save every life that you can save? Do you still have both your kidneys?
How about all the others around you? Do you lose respect for people who won’t sign up? To save a life?

Or is it just women who have had sex whom you judge?

These are some questions you can ponder when you decide if it makes sense for you to think you can get in the heads of people who want to control their own reproduction, with the millions of different motivations that they have.

It is fraught to think you can really know what they are thinking by maing assumptions based on how they process their condition.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Some people seem to indicate that the women are not publicly sharing enough of their trauma with others to get social permission for the medical procedure. That they have to cry,

I know for a stone cold fact, this is true of a lot of women after giving birth to children (that women conceal a lot of post partum depression). Maybe we need to tell people when they can take a pregnancy to term?

 

[untermensche]

The sex drive is the problem..

I would posit that the sex drive is not the problem. The problem is the judging of it.

It should be judged. It should be discouraged.

A single woman raising a child can mean hardship for both.

What should not be judged is the decision to abort. Especially if it is done early.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The sex drive is the problem..

I would posit that the sex drive is not the problem. The problem is the judging of it.

It should be judged. It should be discouraged.

A single woman raising a child can mean hardship for both.

What should not be judged is the decision to abort. Especially if it is done early.

Time to buy a lottery ticket, but I agree with untermensche! I don't think that a woman should be "judged" here. But yes, single women without means should be discouraged from having out of wedlock children. It's a no brainer. A very detailed study conducted on a reservation (I'll try to find it) found that the number one indicator of poverty was a single person under 20 having a baby, number 2 (way down the list) was getting on drugs. It's hard on the woman, it's hard on her children, and it's hard on the local community.

The problem here is that the religious right could care less about the above. They just want women to be subservient to their husbands and their church and tow the Christian line.

 

[Jarhyn]

The sex drive is the problem..

I would posit that the sex drive is not the problem. The problem is the judging of it.

It should be judged. It should be discouraged.

A single woman raising a child can mean hardship for both.

What should not be judged is the decision to abort. Especially if it is done early.

So, I had a post explaining this that somehow seemed to vanish?. Essentially, I should have been aborted. One of the women I judge for not commiting to consideration with a somber heart whether to produce a human life is my own "mother", "the mother" as opposed to my mom.

No matter of life and death ought be treated without due consideration. If I woke up tomorrow and was somehow pregnant, I would throw away an actual literal miracle myself, if it was a miracle I didn't ask for. I would do this both on principle and on lack of preparation, and doing so could very well destroy me.

All I ask is that no human flippantly handle matters of life and death. If they cannot accomplish that, I will lose respect for them to the extent that flippancy continues to be held.

There are some here I respect here not-at-all specifically because of their flippancy over matters of life and death. It is something I expect of myself and so something I expect of others, to commit due diligence in consideration of matters of life and of death.

I would free all women everywhere from being so tethered to this existential millstone of responsibility that I am not myself today tied to. Or extend it to all, all the same. But I can not any more than I could free those who can get pregnant from the fear that they might become pregnant, or pregnant at the wrong time. The world is not fair here, and we can't at this time make it fair. It sucks, but that's how it is.

 

[Gospel]

It is possible that the disconnect for you comes from years of being taught that you have a right to determine what women do with their bodies. That once they have sex, they are public vessels.

Women will point out, “so what if it’s as easy as getting a pepsi. If you don’t want an abortion/pepsi, don’t get one,” and by that they mean, “can I remind you that this is my body and not yours?”

No, I never felt I had the right to dictate anyone's life for anything. When it comes to abortion I feel the option should be available to all, yet not treated like getting a tattoo. There is just something clearly different about getting an abortion and getting a tattoo.

FOR YOU.

But your comment opens the discussion to why you should get to decide how women treat their own medical procedures.
So I’m curious, why you think that women are not treating their abortions “correctly?”

Isn’t it their body?

This is a calm question of discussion, not an attack. I’m curious why you think you get to say how they treat it? I hope you’re willing to explore this. Do you feel - maybe without knowing it - that their bodies are yours to decide? That you have some ownership of women’s bodies once they’ve had sex? Even when it wasn’t with you, but it’s just some random woman wanting an abortion for reasons you don’t think are legit? “They should not treat it like getting a tattoo.” Why not?

I will point out, as Jimmy did above, that women do not treat it like getting a tattoo, “Hey girl! Let’s go to the abortion shop and get some abortions this weekend! It’ll be great!” I will say that NO woman treats it like that.

So I’m interested to explore why they should care what you think about their abortion attitudes? It’s a medical procedure. It’s not fun. No one does it on a whim.

Some people seem to indicate that the women are not publicly sharing enough of their trauma with others to get social permission for the medical procedure. That they have to cry, or regret, or never do it more than once. That women need this social approval before they should be allowed to have body autonomy - which would not be autonomy at all, it would be ownership.

But the truth is a woman can need this procedure more than once, and it is her choice every time. And she does not need to pass any of your (or anyone’s) attitude tests for it to be perfectly okay for her to have this procedure. She doesn’t owe you an explanation. Because you don’t own her body.

I don't really understand the nature of the question here so forgive me. I said abortion should be an option available for all women, full stop. I also said I do not have the right to decide for other people, I also do not have ownership over anyone's body other than my own. You seem to already understand that the decision process to have an abortion shouldn't (and doesn't) carry the same weight as getting a tattoo. But to answer your question:

I’m curious why you think you get to say how they treat it?


This brings me to my sister (this is years ago now) who had an abortion for financial reasons. During the whole process, she seemed to only be concerned about not being able to support a child. The clinic explained everything to her, the procedure, the risks, subsequent discomforts, and healing and she was fine with that because, in the end, it would cost her less money. They even did a great job in showing her all the options she had VIA State/federal programs available at the time that would provide financial assistance with raising a child. Our family would have supported her too (still do to this day). She went through with it & wasn't the same person ever since. She went from a light-hearted joking all the time, looking at the bright side of things social sort of person to a depressed, argumentive, overly defensive & angry person. In other words, she purchased a Pepsi because it was cheaper than a baby & clearly regretted her choice. There is nothing the abortion clinic could do to avoid that, they did an excellent job of informing her. She was not and is not surrounded by a bunch of pro-life family members either because that would have made it very easy to explain her turn of events. It wasn't a secret and we all supported whichever choice she made and it was her choice to share that with us.

Now, I didn't tell this to say all women are like my sister. I didn't share this to explain why I have say in how women treat abortion (though it may seem that way because of how you posed the question, meaning I'd have to accept that I believe I have say in order to answer it). I didn't share this to make abortion itself look bad. I shared it because I love my sister and to also answer the legit part of your question as to why I feel that while abortion should be available to everyone, extreme care also needs to be taken (it's not a Pepsi or tattoo). Hopefully that extreme care like the care provided by the clinic my sister used is available at all locations because It's not only about pro-choice it's also about pro-care. My sister is a strong person, I'm certain that not all teens/women are the same.

 

[untermensche]

It should be judged. It should be discouraged.

A single woman raising a child can mean hardship for both.

What should not be judged is the decision to abort. Especially if it is done early.

So, I had a post explaining this that somehow seemed to vanish?. Essentially, I should have been aborted. One of the women I judge for not commiting to consideration with a somber heart whether to produce a human life is my own "mother", "the mother" as opposed to my mom.

No matter of life and death ought be treated without due consideration. If I woke up tomorrow and was somehow pregnant, I would throw away an actual literal miracle myself, if it was a miracle I didn't ask for. I would do this both on principle and on lack of preparation, and doing so could very well destroy me.

All I ask is that no human flippantly handle matters of life and death. If they cannot accomplish that, I will lose respect for them to the extent that flippancy continues to be held.

There are some here I respect here not-at-all specifically because of their flippancy over matters of life and death. It is something I expect of myself and so something I expect of others, to commit due diligence in consideration of matters of life and of death.

I would free all women everywhere from being so tethered to this existential millstone of responsibility that I am not myself today tied to. Or extend it to all, all the same. But I can not any more than I could free those who can get pregnant from the fear that they might become pregnant, or pregnant at the wrong time. The world is not fair here, and we can't at this time make it fair. It sucks, but that's how it is.

For me it all depends on the death of "what".

I kill mosquitos all the time without a thought.

They are alive.

Killing some cells that do not even have a nervous system is no problem for me.

As you move later into the pregnancy the killing becomes more troublesome.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

FOR YOU.

But your comment opens the discussion to why you should get to decide how women treat their own medical procedures.
So I’m curious, why you think that women are not treating their abortions “correctly?”

Isn’t it their body?

This is a calm question of discussion, not an attack. I’m curious why you think you get to say how they treat it? I hope you’re willing to explore this. Do you feel - maybe without knowing it - that their bodies are yours to decide? That you have some ownership of women’s bodies once they’ve had sex? Even when it wasn’t with you, but it’s just some random woman wanting an abortion for reasons you don’t think are legit? “They should not treat it like getting a tattoo.” Why not?

I will point out, as Jimmy did above, that women do not treat it like getting a tattoo, “Hey girl! Let’s go to the abortion shop and get some abortions this weekend! It’ll be great!” I will say that NO woman treats it like that.

So I’m interested to explore why they should care what you think about their abortion attitudes? It’s a medical procedure. It’s not fun. No one does it on a whim.

Some people seem to indicate that the women are not publicly sharing enough of their trauma with others to get social permission for the medical procedure. That they have to cry, or regret, or never do it more than once. That women need this social approval before they should be allowed to have body autonomy - which would not be autonomy at all, it would be ownership.

But the truth is a woman can need this procedure more than once, and it is her choice every time. And she does not need to pass any of your (or anyone’s) attitude tests for it to be perfectly okay for her to have this procedure. She doesn’t owe you an explanation. Because you don’t own her body.

I don't really understand the nature of the question here so forgive me. I said abortion should be an option available for all women, full stop.

Actually, it wasn't a full stop, you had an impressive and quite misinformed "but" after it.

Now, I didn't tell this to say all women are like my sister. I didn't share this to explain why I have say in how women treat abortion (though it may seem that way because of how you posed the question, meaning I'd have to accept that I believe I have say in order to answer it). I didn't share this to make abortion itself look bad. I shared it because I love my sister and to also answer the legit part of your question as to why I feel that while abortion should be available to everyone, extreme care also needs to be taken (it's not a Pepsi or tattoo). Hopefully that extreme care like the care provided by the clinic my sister used is available at all locations because It's not only about pro-choice it's also about pro-care. My sister is a strong person, I'm certain that not all teens/women are the same.

To be clear, your point is getting a tattoo is like buying a Pepsi?

And just to make one other thing clear, having an abortion is nothing like having a child!

 

[Gun Nut]

All of these arguments are fun and interesting... but besides the point.
Anti-Abortion is the war on sex. It is not about "fetus rights".

 

[Gun Nut]

I kill mosquitos all the time without a thought.

They are alive.

Killing some cells that do not even have a nervous system is no problem for me.

As you move later into the pregnancy the killing becomes more troublesome.

The line between removing a tumor and committing a murderous act is necessarily a very clear, sharp one... it is at birth. That is the point that the LAW recognizes an individual, and it is also the point that the BIBLE (not that anyone should care) defines the beginning of life (that moment the baby cries for the first time as "god breathes life into its lungs".
If that line is to be moved into the womb, then any stillbirth or rejection of any amount of clustered cells must be fully investigated for possible murder charges if a jury feels there is anything at all the carrier of the fetus could have done differently to have influenced a different outcome... Was her diet perfect for the fetus or less than perfect? Did she breath 100% pure air or did she expose the fetus to any impurities of any kind at all? Did she sleep adequately? etc..

 

[Gospel]

Actually, it wasn't a full stop, you had an impressive and quite misinformed "but" after it.

Can you be specific? I don't know where you got that.

To be clear, your point is getting a tattoo is like buying a Pepsi?

Thanks for not reading what I wrote.

And just to make one other thing clear, having an abortion is nothing like having a child!

Who made a claim to the contrary?

 

[Jarhyn]

Can you be specific? I don't know where you got that.



Thanks for not reading what I wrote.

And just to make one other thing clear, having an abortion is nothing like having a child!

Who made a claim to the contrary?

I would make a claim to the contrary. They are exactly alike in at least one way: they are both decisions pertaining to the life and death of something. They may be opposite sides of a decision, but they are, in fact, both "sides of that decision", and this makes them "alike".

And that decision needs to be made, and made very explicitly.