Russia's Ghost Army in Ukraine

[Nexus]

Are you ashamed that you're taking money to push propaganda?

And people claim those who think the CIA was involved with the Ukrainian coup are crazy conspiracy theorists. Since you've so convinced the "Russophiles" here are paid propagandists have you considered the possibility the US also pays people to post anti-Russia and pro-war jingoism?

 

[Harry Bosch]

And people claim those who think the CIA was involved with the Ukrainian coup are crazy conspiracy theorists. Since you've so convinced the "Russophiles" here are paid propagandists have you considered the possibility the US also pays people to post anti-Russia and pro-war jingoism?

Are you defending the previous Ukranian government that employed snipers to shoot peaceful protestors?

 

[Daioh]

You are the first New Zealander I have met without a sense of humour

I have a sense of humour
You just weren't being funny

Plus you are dancing around the actual point
Do you have evidence?

 

[tupac chopra]

And people claim those who think the CIA was involved with the Ukrainian coup are crazy conspiracy theorists. Since you've so convinced the "Russophiles" here are paid propagandists have you considered the possibility the US also pays people to post anti-Russia and pro-war jingoism?

Are you defending the previous Ukranian government that employed snipers to shoot peaceful protestors?

As people from both sides were shot do you have any evidence that snipers were hired by the previous government.
Here is one was was not.
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-02-12/sniper-tells-bbc-he-may-have-helped-provoke-massacre-ukraine

 

[tupac chopra]

You are the first New Zealander I have met without a sense of humour

I have a sense of humour
You just weren't being funny

Plus you are dancing around the actual point
Do you have evidence?

I already posted evidence that someone from the Whitehouse was editing Wikipedia articles about Russia's involvement in Crimea. So as the article you linked to was putting words in Putin's mouth, it could well have been the same people.

http://rt.com/news/173528-us-congress-edit-wikipedia/

Who knows, but they'd have to be on the suspect list if a Wikipedia article about Crimea was biased.

 

[Daioh]

I already posted evidence that someone from the Whitehouse was editing Wikipedia articles about Russia's involvement in Crimea.

With absolutely nothing to show any connection to the listed page

So as the article you linked to was putting words in Putin's mouth

Which you have yet to show

Again you dance around the subject with no actual proof your claims of tampering are relevant to this discussion

 

[tupac chopra]

Again you dance around the subject with no actual proof your claims of tampering are relevant to this discussion

As I said you're the first New Zealander I've met without a sense of humour.
If you don't find it even slightly amusing that both the Whitehouse and the Russians (once they thought of it) were busy editing Wikipedia pages about Crimea then it explains a lot

I think it probably means that you didn't understand that anyone can go and edit Wikipedia. And this would explain why you believe the editor of the section you linked to, even though he/she had no evidence.
But hey...don't worry it's in Wikipedia. It must be true.

 

[Daioh]

Still nothing except some hand waving tupac?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

At what point are you going to stop spreading this lie? When the checks from Moscow run out?

Ok even George Friedman from Stratfor admitted the coup.

`Russia has repeatedly said that the coup in Kiev was organized by the US, Friedman told Kommersant newspaper. Indeed, it was the most overt coup in history, the political analyst stressed.''

But somehow you think there was no coup, or that the US was not involved...or?

Read your own quote!!

He isn't admitting it, he's saying that Russia said it.

 

[Nexus]

And people claim those who think the CIA was involved with the Ukrainian coup are crazy conspiracy theorists. Since you've so convinced the "Russophiles" here are paid propagandists have you considered the possibility the US also pays people to post anti-Russia and pro-war jingoism?

Are you defending the previous Ukranian government that employed snipers to shoot peaceful protestors?

Your question is a complete red herring to my post but to answer your question. No, I won't defend a government for shooting peaceful protesters. But since both sides were shot by snipers why are you defending the Neo-Nazis. But since you don't believe Neo-Nazis exist I sure you don't believe they would shoot protesters and cops either.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Are you defending the previous Ukranian government that employed snipers to shoot peaceful protestors?

Your question is a complete red herring to my post but to answer your question. No, I won't defend a government for shooting peaceful protesters. But since both sides were shot by snipers why are you defending the Neo-Nazis. But since you don't believe Neo-Nazis exist I sure you don't believe they would shoot protesters and cops either.

There is no doubt that there are some bad dudes in the current Ukranian government. I've never favored parliamentary style of government as it gives minority power to some extreme groups. However, it appears to me that the Ukrainian "neo-nazis" are greatly in the minority. Certainly the popular Klitschko is a moderate. There are far right politicians in many countries in Europe. Do you consider Sweden, France, and Poland to be Neo Nazi countries? Regardless, having some bad people in the Ukrainian government doesn't give Russia the right to invade.

 

[tupac chopra]

Regardless, having some bad people in the Ukrainian government doesn't give Russia the right to invade.

18th February 2014..Coup in Kiev

20th Feb 2014 Ukrainian nationalists are murdering Crimeans.

16 March 2014 Crimean referendum where Crimea chose to go back to Russia

25th May 2014 Ukrainians election (which the East did not participate in).

The alleged "invasion" of Crimea (March 16) happened whilst Ukraine was in chaos where the democratically elected leader had been ousted.
The alleged "invasion" involved Russian troops that had always been present in Crimea, and all they did was preside over the referendum

Whether Russia had any justification, from Kosovo I don't know, but the point is that you are giving the Fox News version of events and missing the context.


If you are talking about Eastern Ukraine, remember this started before Poroshenko was elected and Poroshenko chose to continue the fighting

 

[Jayjay]

Nothing you posted showed that.
Why are you putting inverted comma's around that sentence though? Are you saying Putin actually said those words?

Here are his exact words:

QUESTION: How do you see the future of Crimea? Do you consider the possibility of it joining Russia?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: No, we do not. Generally, I believe that only residents of a given country who have the freedom of will and are in complete safety can and should determine their future. If this right was granted to the Albanians in Kosovo, if this was made possible in many different parts of the world, then nobody has ruled out the right of nations to self-determination, which, as far as I know, is fixed by several UN documents. However, we will in no way provoke any such decision and will not breed such sentiments.

I would like to stress that I believe only the people living in a given territory have the right to determine their own future.

Just two weeks later, Russia annexed Crimea. So I call bullshit on Putin saying that he did not "consider the possibility of it joining Russia".

Keep in mind that this was just one of his lies. In the same interview you can find him deny the little green men being Russian, and of course, he is untruthful about believing in people living in a given territory determining their own future, as Russia hasn't recognized Kosovo's independence.

 

[barbos]

Here are his exact words:

QUESTION: How do you see the future of Crimea? Do you consider the possibility of it joining Russia?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: No, we do not. Generally, I believe that only residents of a given country who have the freedom of will and are in complete safety can and should determine their future. If this right was granted to the Albanians in Kosovo, if this was made possible in many different parts of the world, then nobody has ruled out the right of nations to self-determination, which, as far as I know, is fixed by several UN documents. However, we will in no way provoke any such decision and will not breed such sentiments.

I would like to stress that I believe only the people living in a given territory have the right to determine their own future.

Just two weeks later, Crimea voted to go back to Russia . So I call bullshit on Putin saying that he did not "consider the possibility of it joining Russia".

Fixed for you.

Keep in mind that this was just one of his lies. In the same interview you can find him deny the little green men being Russian, and of course, he is untruthful about believing in people living in a given territory determining their own future, as Russia hasn't recognized Kosovo's independence.

Actually, you will need to show a quote for this, cause he never denied it, he merely deflected the question.

 

[Jayjay]

Here are his exact words:

Just two weeks later, Crimea joined Russia. So I call bullshit on Putin saying that he did not "consider the possibility of it joining Russia".

Failed to fix it for you.

Fixed that for you. And if it pleases you, I changed my original wording to match the exact question in case you felt that the word "annex" is somehow biased.

Keep in mind that this was just one of his lies. In the same interview you can find him deny the little green men being Russian, and of course, he is untruthful about believing in people living in a given territory determining their own future, as Russia hasn't recognized Kosovo's independence.

Actually, you will need to show a quote for this, cause he never denied it, he merely deflected the question.

It's pretty clear.

QUESTION: Mr President, a clarification if I may. The people who were blocking the Ukrainian Army units in Crimea were wearing uniforms that strongly resembled the Russian Army uniform. Were those Russian soldiers, Russian military?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Why don’t you take a look at the post-Soviet states. There are many uniforms there that are similar. You can go to a store and buy any kind of uniform.

QUESTION: But were they Russian soldiers or not?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Those were local self-defence units.

QUESTION: How well trained are they? If we compare them to the self-defence units in Kiev…

VLADIMIR PUTIN: My dear colleague, look how well trained the people who operated in Kiev were. As we all know they were trained at special bases in neighbouring states: in Lithuania, Poland and in Ukraine itself too. They were trained by instructors for extended periods. They were divided into dozens and hundreds, their actions were coordinated, they had good communication systems. It was all like clockwork. Did you see them in action? They looked very professional, like special forces. Why do you think those in Crimea should be any worse?

QUESTION: In that case, can I specify: did we take part in training Crimean self-defence forces?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: No, we did not.

That's not a deflection, it's pretty clearly saying that the green-clad soldiers were local "self-defense forces", and not trained by Russia which excludes any Russian military (unless there is some special branch that has no training whatsoever).

 

[tupac chopra]

Here are his exact words:

QUESTION: How do you see the future of Crimea? Do you consider the possibility of it joining Russia?

VLADIMIR PUTIN: No, we do not. Generally, I believe that only residents of a given country who have the freedom of will and are in complete safety can and should determine their future. If this right was granted to the Albanians in Kosovo, if this was made possible in many different parts of the world, then nobody has ruled out the right of nations to self-determination, which, as far as I know, is fixed by several UN documents. However, we will in no way provoke any such decision and will not breed such sentiments.

I would like to stress that I believe only the people living in a given territory have the right to determine their own future.

Just two weeks later, Russia annexed Crimea. So I call bullshit on Putin saying that he did not "consider the possibility of it joining Russia".

Keep in mind that this was just one of his lies. .

You have not shown that Putin told a lie though.

Putin contrasts two things.

1) Crimea joining Russia (under force)
2) Crimean residents choosing their own destiny, which would include them leaving Ukraine something along the lines of Kosovo.

As there was a referendum with a landslide result, and as 12 months later the Crimeans are happy with their choice, it is pretty clearly option 2.

There is nothing to stop you "calling bullshit" but you have not shown that to actually be the case...have you?

 

[tupac chopra]

But if we want to see some actual lies...then....we only have to listen to General Philip Breedlove, the top NATO commander.

From Der Spiegel on March 6th
Breedlove's Bellicosity: Berlin Alarmed by Aggressive NATO Stance on Ukraine

A mixture of political argumentation and military propaganda is necessary. But for months now, many in the Chancellery simply shake their heads each time NATO, under Breedlove's leadership, goes public with striking announcements about Russian troop or tank movements. To be sure, neither Berlin's Russia experts nor BND intelligence analysts doubt that Moscow is supporting the pro-Russian separatists. The BND even has proof of such support.
But it is the tone of Breedlove's announcements that makes Berlin uneasy. False claims and exaggerated accounts, warned a top German official during a recent meeting on Ukraine, have put NATO -- and by extension, the entire West -- in danger of losing its credibility.

There are plenty of examples. Just over three weeks ago, during the cease-fire talks in Minsk, the Ukrainian military warned that the Russians -- even as the diplomatic marathon was ongoing -- had moved 50 tanks and dozens of rockets across the border into Luhansk. Just one day earlier, US Lieutenant General Ben Hodges had announced "direct Russian military intervention."

Senior officials in Berlin immediately asked the BND for an assessment, but the intelligence agency's satellite images showed just a few armored vehicles.

 

[Jayjay]

Here are his exact words:

Just two weeks later, Russia annexed Crimea. So I call bullshit on Putin saying that he did not "consider the possibility of it joining Russia".

Keep in mind that this was just one of his lies. .

You have not shown that Putin told a lie though.

Putin contrasts two things.

1) Crimea joining Russia (under force)
2) Crimean residents choosing their own destiny, which would include them leaving Ukraine something along the lines of Kosovo.

As there was a referendum with a landslide result, and as 12 months later the Crimeans are happy with their choice, it is pretty clearly option 2.

There is nothing to stop you "calling bullshit" but you have not shown that to actually be the case...have you?

You don't annex a country in a snap of fingers unless you have planned it in advance. But I don't have to speculate one bit, because we now know that there was indeed a plan not only to annex Crimea but to do the same to Eastern Ukraine.

 

[Jayjay]

But if we want to see some actual lies...then....we only have to listen to General Philip Breedlove, the top NATO commander.

From Der Spiegel on March 6th
Breedlove's Bellicosity: Berlin Alarmed by Aggressive NATO Stance on Ukraine

A mixture of political argumentation and military propaganda is necessary. But for months now, many in the Chancellery simply shake their heads each time NATO, under Breedlove's leadership, goes public with striking announcements about Russian troop or tank movements. To be sure, neither Berlin's Russia experts nor BND intelligence analysts doubt that Moscow is supporting the pro-Russian separatists. The BND even has proof of such support.
But it is the tone of Breedlove's announcements that makes Berlin uneasy. False claims and exaggerated accounts, warned a top German official during a recent meeting on Ukraine, have put NATO -- and by extension, the entire West -- in danger of losing its credibility.

There are plenty of examples. Just over three weeks ago, during the cease-fire talks in Minsk, the Ukrainian military warned that the Russians -- even as the diplomatic marathon was ongoing -- had moved 50 tanks and dozens of rockets across the border into Luhansk. Just one day earlier, US Lieutenant General Ben Hodges had announced "direct Russian military intervention."

Senior officials in Berlin immediately asked the BND for an assessment, but the intelligence agency's satellite images showed just a few armored vehicles.

Do you think that it is that difficult to move or camouflage the vehicles before BND could take its own photos? Also note that the article states that BND has proof of Russia supporting the rebels.

 

[tupac chopra]

Do you think that it is that difficult to move or camouflage the vehicles before BND could take its own photos?

Anything is possible I guess, but as the Der Spiegel article says.

There are plenty of examples.

Also note that the article states that BND has proof of Russia supporting the rebels.

And? I have said that is what I understand is going on too. Of course there is some support coming from Russia.
Putin doesn't want a war but he doesn't want to totally abandom the people in East Ukraine. For political reasons if nothing else
Remember too that thousands of young Ukrainian men have sought refuge in Russia because they don't want to fight and kill their countrymen.