School Segregation

[AthenaAwakened]

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It really is weird how the best reporting and analysis of issues such as this comes from a comedy show and is ignored by the so-called news programs.

 

[Jarhyn]

Heh, imagine that... Poor black kids get as much educational resources as white kids, and suddenly they are achieving more. It must be because black kids are cheating off the white kids or something!!!!!!11111one

Surely this can't mean that we ought start shifting educational budgets to state pool, and meting it out by student population... That would be COMMUNISM. Or something.

/Sarcasm

 

[iolo]

Heh, imagine that... Poor black kids get as much educational resources as white kids, and suddenly they are achieving more. It must be because black kids are cheating off the white kids or something!!!!!!11111one

Surely this can't mean that we ought start shifting educational budgets to state pool, and meting it out by student population... That would be COMMUNISM. Or something.

/Sarcasm

Shocking! We shall have decency if this sort of thing goes on!

 

[Horatio Parker]

In Manhattan, diverse school districts are still largely segregated. One way they achieve this is by screening parents ability to donate. So parents wanting their children in a target school must have the bucks.

Besides New York, the most segregated states are Illinois and California.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It really is weird how the best reporting and analysis of issues such as this comes from a comedy show and is ignored by the so-called news programs.

Heh, imagine that... Poor black kids get as much educational resources as white kids, and suddenly they are achieving more. It must be because black kids are cheating off the white kids or something!!!!!!11111one

Surely this can't mean that we ought start shifting educational budgets to state pool, and meting it out by student population... That would be COMMUNISM. Or something.

/Sarcasm

That was a comedian, not someone who actually understood the situation.

Of course things improved in the black schools when they started being more fair about funding. That has nothing to do with the current situation.

Inner city schools get the money--they just spend far more on things like security so less is available to be spent on the students. Also, put a bunch of computers in them and how long would they last before being broken or stolen?

What he's missing is the throw-money-at-it approach has been tried--and was a complete failure.

 

[ApostateAbe]

Desegregation benefits disadvantaged minorities, but it is definitely a tough sell for whites. They must agree to send their own children to schools in which the student body tends to be poorer, stupider, more disruptive, more antisocial, and more criminal than otherwise. When white parents act as either individuals or as a political body, they really have no other practical choice. White parents will choose white schools. The whiter the better. They won't sacrifice the good of their children for the sake of children of other parents.

 

[laughing dog]

Heh, imagine that... Poor black kids get as much educational resources as white kids, and suddenly they are achieving more. It must be because black kids are cheating off the white kids or something!!!!!!11111one

Surely this can't mean that we ought start shifting educational budgets to state pool, and meting it out by student population... That would be COMMUNISM. Or something.

/Sarcasm

That was a comedian, not someone who actually understood the situation.

Of course things improved in the black schools when they started being more fair about funding. That has nothing to do with the current situation.

Inner city schools get the money--they just spend far more on things like security so less is available to be spent on the students. Also, put a bunch of computers in them and how long would they last before being broken or stolen?

What he's missing is the throw-money-at-it approach has been tried--and was a complete failure.

Your unsubstantiated opinion did not address any of facts in the piece.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Heh, imagine that... Poor black kids get as much educational resources as white kids, and suddenly they are achieving more. It must be because black kids are cheating off the white kids or something!!!!!!11111one

Surely this can't mean that we ought start shifting educational budgets to state pool, and meting it out by student population... That would be COMMUNISM. Or something.

/Sarcasm

That was a comedian, not someone who actually understood the situation.

Of course things improved in the black schools when they started being more fair about funding. That has nothing to do with the current situation.

Inner city schools get the money--they just spend far more on things like security so less is available to be spent on the students. Also, put a bunch of computers in them and how long would they last before being broken or stolen?

What he's missing is the throw-money-at-it approach has been tried--and was a complete failure.

Loren, go to bed. If anyone here doesn't understand something, it is you. Where did Oliver call for "throwing money" at anything? He observed that money follows white students and it does. So do experienced teachers and administrators. So does better infrastructure.

These are facts.

Tell me Loren, have you done any volunteer hours at a school, had serious conversations with educators, or attended any school board meetings or PTA meetings? How about any serious reading on the subject?

I bet I know the answer.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That was a comedian, not someone who actually understood the situation.

Of course things improved in the black schools when they started being more fair about funding. That has nothing to do with the current situation.

Inner city schools get the money--they just spend far more on things like security so less is available to be spent on the students. Also, put a bunch of computers in them and how long would they last before being broken or stolen?

What he's missing is the throw-money-at-it approach has been tried--and was a complete failure.

Loren, go to bed. If anyone here doesn't understand something, it is you. Where did Oliver call for "throwing money" at anything? He observed that money follows white students and it does. So do experienced teachers and administrators. So does better infrastructure.

These are facts.

Tell me Loren, have you done any volunteer hours at a school, had serious conversations with educators, or attended any school board meetings or PTA meetings? How about any serious reading on the subject?

I bet I know the answer.

I didn't say he said anything about throwing money at the problem. I'm saying it was tried--a judge decided to impose it. It didn't help one bit. The reality is that to a great degree the schools are a reflection of the students they get. Adding money to the situation doesn't change this.

And note that this isn't purely a racial problem--you see the same thing when you have a big flux of immigrants who don't speak English. Poor students = poor schools.

What we can do is sort out the students who want to learn from those who don't. It's not realistically possible to do much with the latter but we should be aiming to save the former--but you'll scream about any such attempt. You'll sacrifice the ones that can be saved on the alter of preventing discrimination.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Loren, go to bed. If anyone here doesn't understand something, it is you. Where did Oliver call for "throwing money" at anything? He observed that money follows white students and it does. So do experienced teachers and administrators. So does better infrastructure.

These are facts.

Tell me Loren, have you done any volunteer hours at a school, had serious conversations with educators, or attended any school board meetings or PTA meetings? How about any serious reading on the subject?

I bet I know the answer.

I didn't say he said anything about throwing money at the problem. I'm saying it was tried--a judge decided to impose it. It didn't help one bit. The reality is that to a great degree the schools are a reflection of the students they get. Adding money to the situation doesn't change this.

But this a discussion of the video. And even if it were more than that, you would still be wrong. If money did not make a difference, then unscale neighborhoods wouldn't spend any.

And note that this isn't purely a racial problem--you see the same thing when you have a big flux of immigrants who don't speak English. Poor students = poor schools.

And your answer to that equation is?

What we can do is sort out the students who want to learn from those who don't.

All students want to learn but they don't all learn the same way, at the same rate or do they all want to learn the same things.

It's not realistically possible to do much with the latter but we should be aiming to save the former--but you'll scream about any such attempt. You'll sacrifice the ones that can be saved on the alter of preventing discrimination.

You have not idea what I scream about. And since you don't go to school board meeting or schools, you never will.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Of course things improved in the black schools when they started being more fair about funding. That has nothing to do with the current situation...

How about the fact that the ONLY reason they started being "more fair about the funding" was because white people started going to those schools?

Inner city schools get the money

No they don't. That's kind of the WHOLE POINT. Elementary schools don't get the same funding, the same quality of teachers or the same access to resources that schools in wealthier and whiter neighborhoods do.

Also, put a bunch of computers in them and how long would they last before being broken or stolen?

I presume the same amount of time it would take in an integrated school. Is there any particular reason you think they would last longer in a segregated school?

What he's missing is the throw-money-at-it approach has been tried--and was a complete failure.

Nobody mentioned the "throw money at it" approach, and actually nobody ever does. He advocated the "throw white people at it" approach. Which, for various reasons -- funding being the most noticeable -- has a solid track record of actually working.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'm saying it was tried--a judge decided to impose it. It didn't help one bit.

... a case you half remember hearing about somewhere but can't recall the details about nor explain why it didn't help, or what it was supposed to help in the first place.

Typical Loren post.

The reality is that to a great degree the schools are a reflection of the students they get...

Hence integration.

What we can do is sort out the students who want to learn from those who don't.

It has been explained to you in EXHAUSTING detail why this entire concept is complete bullshit, and why you're kind of a sociopath for even entertaining this notion. No surprise, though, that you're back to pushing this tired old bucket of pig jizz as if anyone but you ever wants to take a gulp.

Short version: there is no data -- NONE WHATSOEVER -- that integration of schools lowers academic performance of white people. Specifically, there is even less data that intervention programs to help struggling students within those same schools have any negative effect on high performing students. The two are not mutually exclusive, you've been told this, you've been SHOWN this, and yet you're still pissing into the air trying to convince the rest of us that it's raining on you.

 

[laughing dog]

I didn't say he said anything about throwing money at the problem. I'm saying it was tried--a judge decided to impose it. It didn't help one bit.

In your first response you wrote "Of course things improved in the black schools when they started being more fair about funding." So you do acknowledge that getting more money did help with the problems. Now you are rejecting what you first wrote. So which one is it - can more money help with those problems or does it not?

 

[Jarhyn]

How about the fact that the ONLY reason they started being "more fair about the funding" was because white people started going to those schools?

Inner city schools get the money

No they don't. That's kind of the WHOLE POINT. Elementary schools don't get the same funding, the same quality of teachers or the same access to resources that schools in wealthier and whiter neighborhoods do.

Also, put a bunch of computers in them and how long would they last before being broken or stolen?

I presume the same amount of time it would take in an integrated school. Is there any particular reason you think they would last longer in a segregated school?

What he's missing is the throw-money-at-it approach has been tried--and was a complete failure.

Nobody mentioned the "throw money at it" approach, and actually nobody ever does. He advocated the "throw white people at it" approach. Which, for various reasons -- funding being the most noticeable -- has a solid track record of actually working.

I would actually say throwing money at it to make nice schools with good technologies and materials available would be enough, but it wouldn't be. You need wealthy people being forced to send their kids there if you want to avoid any shirking that could be done. And perversely, forcing desegregation in schools again could also lead to better networking opportunities.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

How about the fact that the ONLY reason they started being "more fair about the funding" was because white people started going to those schools?


No they don't. That's kind of the WHOLE POINT. Elementary schools don't get the same funding, the same quality of teachers or the same access to resources that schools in wealthier and whiter neighborhoods do.

Also, put a bunch of computers in them and how long would they last before being broken or stolen?

I presume the same amount of time it would take in an integrated school. Is there any particular reason you think they would last longer in a segregated school?

What he's missing is the throw-money-at-it approach has been tried--and was a complete failure.

Nobody mentioned the "throw money at it" approach, and actually nobody ever does. He advocated the "throw white people at it" approach. Which, for various reasons -- funding being the most noticeable -- has a solid track record of actually working.

I would actually say throwing money at it to make nice schools with good technologies and materials available would be enough, but it wouldn't be. You need wealthy people being forced to send their kids there if you want to avoid any shirking that could be done. And perversely, forcing desegregation in schools again could also lead to better networking opportunities.

The Great American Know-Who!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I didn't say he said anything about throwing money at the problem. I'm saying it was tried--a judge decided to impose it. It didn't help one bit. The reality is that to a great degree the schools are a reflection of the students they get. Adding money to the situation doesn't change this.

But this a discussion of the video. And even if it were more than that, you would still be wrong. If money did not make a difference, then unscale neighborhoods wouldn't spend any.

And the video is some abstract totally unconnected with reality? I'm saying that the increase funding approach has been tried--and doesn't work.

And note that this isn't purely a racial problem--you see the same thing when you have a big flux of immigrants who don't speak English. Poor students = poor schools.

And your answer to that equation is?

I do not know the answer. I'm saying that problem you get with an influx of immigrants shows that it's the students, not the school. A school can go to shit very quickly if it's swamped in immigrant students that don't speak English.

What we can do is sort out the students who want to learn from those who don't.

All students want to learn but they don't all learn the same way, at the same rate or do they all want to learn the same things.

It's not realistically possible to do much with the latter but we should be aiming to save the former--but you'll scream about any such attempt. You'll sacrifice the ones that can be saved on the alter of preventing discrimination.

You have not idea what I scream about. And since you don't go to school board meeting or schools, you never will.

You've screamed about it in the past on here. You see any attempt to sort out students as a tool of discrimination because it has been used as such in the past. The rules should be standardized so that's not a problem. (It's just standardized rules leave no room to scream discrimination when you see a disparate outcome.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No they don't. That's kind of the WHOLE POINT. Elementary schools don't get the same funding, the same quality of teachers or the same access to resources that schools in wealthier and whiter neighborhoods do.

Except that's not the case. Funding is handled at a high enough level there's rarely much difference.

Quality of teachers--of course. You'll have a very hard time getting good teachers to accept such a posting. Unless you want to bring back slavery there's not much the school district can do about this.

Also, put a bunch of computers in them and how long would they last before being broken or stolen?

I presume the same amount of time it would take in an integrated school. Is there any particular reason you think they would last longer in a segregated school?

It has nothing to do with integrated vs segregated, but rather well-to-do vs inner city.

What he's missing is the throw-money-at-it approach has been tried--and was a complete failure.

Nobody mentioned the "throw money at it" approach, and actually nobody ever does. He advocated the "throw white people at it" approach. Which, for various reasons -- funding being the most noticeable -- has a solid track record of actually working.

And where's this track record in modern times? At first there was a very real issue but that has been pretty much fixed. (You still see some disparity because some states are poorer than others.)

You're measuring funding based on what the students get--totally neglecting the amount of funding needed in the inner city is a lot higher to get the same level of benefit.

- - - Updated - - -

I would actually say throwing money at it to make nice schools with good technologies and materials available would be enough, but it wouldn't be. You need wealthy people being forced to send their kids there if you want to avoid any shirking that could be done. And perversely, forcing desegregation in schools again could also lead to better networking opportunities.

Yeah, you would have to force matters. If the bad students are equally spread around you'll "solve" the problem--by the standard leftist approach of hammering down anyone who stands above the crowd.

You'll hammer down your society this way.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It has nothing to do with integrated vs segregated, but rather well-to-do vs inner city.

And if you integrate the so-called "well-to-do" populations with the so-called "inner city" populations, you see a rise in outcomes for "inner city" students and NO negative consequences for the "well-to-do" students. Funding is one of the reasons, but it is not the only reason or even the most important.

And where's this track record in modern times?

Charlotte School district until the mid 1990s, for one.

Did you even watch the video?

At first there was a very real issue but that has been pretty much fixed.

Systemic racism doesn't magically disappear just because you manage to reduce its social and economic impact for twenty five years. It's not like it just "runs its course" and goes away if you treat the symptoms long enough. You know as well as I do that the net EFFECT of Jim Crow laws were damaging to black people as a community and would be just as damaging even if they were passed for an ostensibly non-racist reason (as is basically the case with school segregation today).

Yeah, you would have to force matters. If the bad students are equally spread around you'll "solve" the problem--by the standard leftist approach of hammering down anyone who stands above the crowd.

No school district or curriculum in America has EVER been designed that way, and this claim -- as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times -- is bullshit.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yeah, you would have to force matters. If the bad students are equally spread around you'll "solve" the problem--by the standard leftist approach of hammering down anyone who stands above the crowd.

You'll hammer down your society this way.

Schools don't work this way. They never have. The existence of bad students doesn't make good students suddenly not care. Arguably, it doesn't matter until the bad student population grows to such a high percentage that it actually disenfranchises the teachers. SOME percentage of bad students is probably preferable; without the rum-dums of my own school, I never would have developed the desire to not do the things that ultimately were their downfall and I suspect that is true of most every student in non-homogenous school.