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Should There Be Limits On Science?

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
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secular-skeptic
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01001-2

Saw this on CNN. Human cells ijected into a monkey fetus.

Should the public have a say in what science does? Given the potential of what can be released I'd say going forward yes.


A scifi sort of scenario is possible. Maybe not mutant creatures eating humans, but one thing leading to another out of control.
 
This is a moral question.

Not a scientific question.

Science tells us absolutely nothing about morality.
 
It's just a zygote. What's the problem?

Only anti-science fundies and conspiracy theory nutjobs would object to this noble quest to broaden our knowledge of the natural world.

Humanzees could marry humans #lovewins
Or they could be our guilt-free slave species.
 
Some very interesting conversations going on these days about C.R.I.S.P.R. (Gene editing)

Pros - we can eliminate genetic disease
Cons - designer babies for the rich

IMO opinion it's another perfect example of something we absolutely don't want anywhere near a free market.
 
Some very interesting conversations going on these days about C.R.I.S.P.R. (Gene editing)

Pros - we can eliminate genetic disease
Cons - designer babies for the rich

IMO opinion it's another perfect example of something we absolutely don't want anywhere near a free market.

We'll see about those designer babies.

People are products of their environment.

Some spoiled rich kid with great genes won't necessarily get off the couch to study.

Many don't now.

Fredo had the same genes as Michael.
 
This is a moral question.

Not a scientific question.

Science tells us absolutely nothing about morality.

Yes, but science “morals”, aka ethics. We have a large number of ethical rules in place for various things. Many are prudent to stop and think.

For example, the article states differences in ethical regulations for primates vs. non primates, and indeed for “close primates”
And we already have many regulations on what we are allowed to do with other animals.

IN general, I think these are good conversations.

Lion is correct that in this case it’s just a blastocyst (well, he said zygote, but he either didn’t read the article or doesn’t understand the difference - it was a blastocyst and then named as an embryo,) which has very different ethical considerations than a developed being. So in this case it’s the point of time where people start thinking.

The article points out that it was not able to survive past day 19, and that the learning was in how the cells communicated with each other, for use in less regulated human cell-porcine chimera.

It’s a good discussion to ask,
1. If it’s a pig with a human heart, is it a human?
And
2. If it’s not a human, is it still okay to raise pigs with human hearts for the purpose of killing them and taking their hearts?

We’ve kind of decided as a society, though not universally, that it is not okay to raise primates for body parts. But we’ve definitely already decided, though again not universally, that it *is* okay to raise pigs for bacon.

We’ve discussed as a society, with some objecting vociferously, that it is okay to use human blastocysts for research, but not humans past viability, with the space between those two moments very heavily debated.
 
Science has ethical rules but science did not give us those rules.

Humans caring about things is what gives us ethics.
 
Science has ethical rules but science did not give us those rules.

Humans caring about things is what gives us ethics.

Are you claiming that scientists aren't humans?

I would say that scientists that establish the ethical codes are humans with a much better understanding of the issue than the average non-scientist with no education related to the issue.
 
I am claiming scientists are not science.

And they can't use science to come up with ethical rules.

They use emotion.

Science doesn't care if you mix a human with a chimp.
 
Some very interesting conversations going on these days about C.R.I.S.P.R. (Gene editing)

Pros - we can eliminate genetic disease
Cons - designer babies for the rich

IMO opinion it's another perfect example of something we absolutely don't want anywhere near a free market.

We'll see about those designer babies.

People are products of their environment.

Some spoiled rich kid with great genes won't necessarily get off the couch to study.

Many don't now.

Fredo had the same genes as Michael.

You should check out CRISPR. It's probably the biggest science story of the decade (at least) and the ramifications are pretty staggering.
 
I am claiming scientists are not science.

And they can't use science to come up with ethical rules.

They use emotion.

Science doesn't care if you mix a human with a chimp.
You wrote that as if it you assume that you are saying something meaningful.

A tea pot doesn't care if you use it to store motor oil in... A true statement but is it meaningful?
 
I am claiming scientists are not science.

And they can't use science to come up with ethical rules.

They use emotion.

Science doesn't care if you mix a human with a chimp.
You wrote that as if it you assume that you are saying something meaningful.

A tea pot doesn't care if you use it to store motor oil in... A true statement but is it meaningful?

It is my point.

You can't get ethics from science.
 
Some very interesting conversations going on these days about C.R.I.S.P.R. (Gene editing)

Pros - we can eliminate genetic disease
Cons - designer babies for the rich

IMO opinion it's another perfect example of something we absolutely don't want anywhere near a free market.

We'll see about those designer babies.

People are products of their environment.

Some spoiled rich kid with great genes won't necessarily get off the couch to study.

Many don't now.

Fredo had the same genes as Michael.

You should check out CRISPR. It's probably the biggest science story of the decade (at least) and the ramifications are pretty staggering.

You should watch the 'Godfather'.

Fredo had all those great genes too.
 
I am claiming scientists are not science.

And they can't use science to come up with ethical rules.

They use emotion.

Science doesn't care if you mix a human with a chimp.
You wrote that as if it you assume that you are saying something meaningful.

A tea pot doesn't care if you use it to store motor oil in... A true statement but is it meaningful?

It is my point.

You can't get ethics from science.

Oh, then you are just arguing a strawman. No one has claimed that the practice of the scientific method (science) can be used to define ethics or morality. Why do you feel the need to pretend someone did? I don't feel the need to defend that the tea pot doesn't care what is put in it.
 
It is my point.

You can't get ethics from science.

Oh, then you are just arguing a strawman. No one has claimed that the practice of the scientific method (science) can be used to define ethics or morality. Why do you feel the need to pretend someone did? I don't feel the need to defend that the tea pot doesn't care what is put in it.

This is a moral issue in the science forum.

It does not belong here.
 
Whenever people talk about the need to put limits on science, they tend to reference one of two things:

1) Applications of science with bad consequences, where the fundamental science that underpins these bad technologies also underpins technologies that are hugely beneficial, and where the net effect on humanity is positive (most weapons of mass destruction fall into this category - could we have modern medical imaging without people also working out how to make atomic bombs? Can we make fertilisers and dyes without also learning to make poison gas?).

2) Fundamental research in a specific field that has been reported on by a journalist whose interest is in selling copy, rather than fairly characterising the research that's being done, its scope, and its purpose (the example in the OP is a case of this - we are invited to be outraged at scientists playing God, and risking the purity of human genetics; But they are doing neither).

Researchers hope that some human–animal hybrids — known as chimaeras — could provide better models in which to test drugs, and be used to grow human organs for transplants.
Sounds like a good idea to me. They're not trying to grow a monkey man from these tissues that will go on a rampage until hunted down by villagers with pitchforks and burning brands.

But before we are told of this noble objective, we hear:
but some scientists question the need for such research
which might be worrying if it weren't true of every bit of research ever conducted.

Ethical concerns always seem to be more innuendo than fact, and while rarely explicit about it, are almost invariably religious in foundation - they start with the assumption that human cells are morally different in important ways from those of other animals, a position with no basis in biology.

Literally nobody is trying to create a monster. Which is a good thing, because if they were we couldn't stop them anyway.

There are plenty of examples of far less ethical experiments having been done on fully developed human beings. The idea that people fiddling with chimerical blastocysts are crossing some kind of line is absurd. But if they did, the existing safeguards against cruelty and abuse would apply. And history shows that such safeguards are fairly ineffective at best. Adding more rules might delay useful and harmless research, but it probably won't block harmful research, which is already unlawful.

Certainly there are some ethical concerns that need to be considered. But all too often, they boil down to "We would like to provide hope to transplant patients and improve the effectiveness and safety of pharmaceuticals, but we mustn't in case we upset the Pope".

The Pope and his followers can kiss my hairy fat backside. Give a detailed, explicit, and relevant description of how a given research project will cause harm that outweighs its benefits, or GTFO.
 
Give a detailed, explicit, and relevant description of how a given research project will cause harm that outweighs its benefits, or GTFO.
MV5BMTY0ODU0MjYxNl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNDM1MTMyNA@@._V1_.jpg
 
Whenever people talk about the need to put limits on science, they tend to reference one of two things:

1) Applications of science with bad consequences, where the fundamental science that underpins these bad technologies also underpins technologies that are hugely beneficial, and where the net effect on humanity is positive (most weapons of mass destruction fall into this category - could we have modern medical imaging without people also working out how to make atomic bombs? Can we make fertilisers and dyes without also learning to make poison gas?).

CRISPR falls squarely into scenario 1)

https://time.com/4626571/crispr-gene-modification-evolution/

(and it has zero to do with the Godfather)
 
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