Solid State Batteries Coming Soon

[ZiprHead]

How solid-state batteries can transform electric cars
More range, less weight, faster charging time -- you name it.

We haven't perfected lithium-ion batteries for electric cars but the race is already on to replace them. Solid-state batteries are getting the most buzz as the heir apparent: Their proponents promise they'll deliver longer range, faster charging and more affordable electric cars compared to today's top EVs like the Tesla Model 3 and Chevy Bolt.

A solid-state battery is exactly that: A tightly compressed arrangement of hard materials rather than the slightly mushy stew that makes up a typical lithium-ion (li-ion) battery. That solid state composition and construction yields an electrochemical device that promises a lot of improvements:

Greater energy density. This could mean an EV with two or more times the current range, or possibly an EV with the same range but with a much smaller, lighter and less expensive battery that charges faster.

Faster charging. Estimates of an 80% charge in 15 minutes get bandied about a lot with solid state, performance that would be on par or a bit faster than today's best li-ion applications.

Longer life. Solid-state tech is a key part of GM's plan to produce a million-mile life battery, changing the equation of EV affordability and reducing concerns about mountains of toxic batteries that need recycling after 100,000 to 150,000 miles.

Thermal stability. Solid-state designs promise less likelihood of thermal runaway, which can cause a fire. Li-ion batteries have developed a nasty reputation for this.

This seems to be quite a promising development for the electric car market. Only three to five years away.

More details in the video at the site.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

How solid-state batteries can transform electric cars
More range, less weight, faster charging time -- you name it.

We haven't perfected lithium-ion batteries for electric cars but the race is already on to replace them. Solid-state batteries are getting the most buzz as the heir apparent: Their proponents promise they'll deliver longer range, faster charging and more affordable electric cars compared to today's top EVs like the Tesla Model 3 and Chevy Bolt.

A solid-state battery is exactly that: A tightly compressed arrangement of hard materials rather than the slightly mushy stew that makes up a typical lithium-ion (li-ion) battery. That solid state composition and construction yields an electrochemical device that promises a lot of improvements:

Greater energy density. This could mean an EV with two or more times the current range, or possibly an EV with the same range but with a much smaller, lighter and less expensive battery that charges faster.

Faster charging. Estimates of an 80% charge in 15 minutes get bandied about a lot with solid state, performance that would be on par or a bit faster than today's best li-ion applications.

Longer life. Solid-state tech is a key part of GM's plan to produce a million-mile life battery, changing the equation of EV affordability and reducing concerns about mountains of toxic batteries that need recycling after 100,000 to 150,000 miles.

Thermal stability. Solid-state designs promise less likelihood of thermal runaway, which can cause a fire. Li-ion batteries have developed a nasty reputation for this.

This seems to be quite a promising development for the electric car market. Only three to five years away.

More details in the video at the site.

I was planning to buy an electric in the next couple years but you've made me think about it now. I still have to fix thing so to get the vehicle into the basement - can stretch that out for five years at least.

 

[ZiprHead]

I was planning to buy an electric in the next couple years but you've made me think about it now. I still have to fix thing so to get the vehicle into the basement - can stretch that out for five years at least.

My guess is it will be several years after introduction that they really become available for the masses. I assume the first ones will be quite expensive. You could buy an electric now and sell or trade in when SSB cars become mainstream.

 

[skepticalbip]

The hybrid car still strikes me as a better option than an electric car. That is unless someone only wants an electric for local travel and a second car, hybrid or gas, for road trips.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The hybrid car still strikes me as a better option than an electric car. That is unless someone only wants an electric for local travel and a second car, hybrid or gas, for road trips.

For a long time I was in this camp--I figured the way to go was an "electric" car with a generator on board. Such an engine could be substantially more efficient than a normal ICE because it would be designed paired with it's generator (or perhaps even with the generator in it to minimize the amount of friction) and only run under optimum conditions. You might even go with a turbine engine approach--you can get impressive efficiencies out of them but they have abysmal low-power efficiency.

However, pure electrics have gotten good enough I now think the best option would be to make an optional small trailer with the fuel, engine and generator. City driving, leave it home. Long road trips, hitch it up.

 

[barbos]

Who's in the hunt? Perhaps most talked about is QuantumScape,

LOL, old "friend" QuantumScape again.
Have not heard that name in few years. Can't comment on what they are doing now, but they started as a scam.

 

[Tigers!]

Perhaps I missed it but the article was vague about what is actually inside the battery.
1. Materials?
2. Produce dangerous by-products during manufacture?
3. Disposal - easy or hard?
4. Recyclable?
5. How common are the materials i.e. will they run out in X years?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The hybrid car still strikes me as a better option than an electric car. That is unless someone only wants an electric for local travel and a second car, hybrid or gas, for road trips.

That's the best option at this point, and until charging stations become more common and range increases. Also, that gasser needn't be a gas guzzler, and shouldn't be. We own a Honda Fit that is incredibly flexible in its use and gets tremendous mileage. Was actually going to replace it with a new one but now they're no longer available. Seems to me a gas sipper and an electric are the best combo at this time.

 

[Treedbear]

...
However, pure electrics have gotten good enough I now think the best option would be to make an optional small trailer with the fuel, engine and generator. City driving, leave it home. Long road trips, hitch it up.

That's what I've been thinking. Either buy a generator on a trailer if you make frequent long trips or go to Hertz and they'll rent you one.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

...
However, pure electrics have gotten good enough I now think the best option would be to make an optional small trailer with the fuel, engine and generator. City driving, leave it home. Long road trips, hitch it up.

That's what I've been thinking. Either buy a generator on a trailer if you make frequent long trips or go to Hertz and they'll rent you one.

I didn't even think of the rental approach--good catch.

 

[Treedbear]

...
However, pure electrics have gotten good enough I now think the best option would be to make an optional small trailer with the fuel, engine and generator. City driving, leave it home. Long road trips, hitch it up.

That's what I've been thinking. Either buy a generator on a trailer if you make frequent long trips or go to Hertz and they'll rent you one.

I didn't even think of the rental approach--good catch.

On the other hand people in places that experience weather related power outages (like here in the New England) might find it handy to keep one in the garage. And they'd have to be quieter and more neighbor-friendly to be allowed on public highways. Win-win. I believe Ted Cruz might even be talked into collaborating on a bill with AOC to have the government subsidize them!

 

[ZiprHead]

...
However, pure electrics have gotten good enough I now think the best option would be to make an optional small trailer with the fuel, engine and generator. City driving, leave it home. Long road trips, hitch it up.

That's what I've been thinking. Either buy a generator on a trailer if you make frequent long trips or go to Hertz and they'll rent you one.

I didn't even think of the rental approach--good catch.

You can buy smallish generators that you can pick up with one arm and fit in the corner of your trunk. https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators

 

[skepticalbip]

I didn't even think of the rental approach--good catch.

You can buy smallish generators that you can pick up with one arm and fit in the corner of your trunk. https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators

Those smallish generators are generally between 1,000 to 3,000 watt output, intended for camping or home emergency for lights and small appliances. An auto would need a good deal more power, I would think a 20,000 watt generator pretty much as a minimum, but 30,000 watt more practical, and 40,000 or more if you don't want to leave it running to recharge batteries during rest stops.

 

[Treedbear]

I didn't even think of the rental approach--good catch.

You can buy smallish generators that you can pick up with one arm and fit in the corner of your trunk. https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators

Those smallish generators are generally between 1,000 to 3,000 watt output, intended for camping or home emergency for lights and small appliances. An auto would need a good deal more power, I would think a 20,000 watt generator pretty much as a minimum, but 30,000 watt more practical, and 40,000 or more if you don't want to leave it running to recharge batteries during rest stops.

That Honda link lists their 3000W generator having a 196cc = .196L engine. The Prius hybrid has a 1.2L engine. Scaling up means 3000W * 1.2/.196 = 18,367W. As close as I can figure.

 

[skepticalbip]

Those smallish generators are generally between 1,000 to 3,000 watt output, intended for camping or home emergency for lights and small appliances. An auto would need a good deal more power, I would think a 20,000 watt generator pretty much as a minimum, but 30,000 watt more practical, and 40,000 or more if you don't want to leave it running to recharge batteries during rest stops.

That Honda link lists their 3000W generator having a 196cc = .196L engine. The Prius hybrid has a 1.2L engine. Scaling up means 3000W * 1.2/.196 = 18,367W. As close as I can figure.

Yeah, your 18,367W is close to my rough guestement of 20,000W. 20,000W is equal to about 27HP which I would assume would be about a minimum of the average HP used for a cross country trip. More HP would be needed for uphill grades and less for downhill grades and needed HP would depend on speed (air resistance) too but would be averaged out by battery storage. A heavier car, hauling more weight would need more.

I don't know what Honda was referring to. The 3,000W is equal to ~4HP. Power out can not exceed power in and it is difficult to imagine getting anywhere in a car with only 4HP.

 

[ZiprHead]

I didn't even think of the rental approach--good catch.

You can buy smallish generators that you can pick up with one arm and fit in the corner of your trunk. https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators

Those smallish generators are generally between 1,000 to 3,000 watt output, intended for camping or home emergency for lights and small appliances. An auto would need a good deal more power, I would think a 20,000 watt generator pretty much as a minimum, but 30,000 watt more practical, and 40,000 or more if you don't want to leave it running to recharge batteries during rest stops.

Electric vehicles can be charged at power draws comparable to various household appliances. Most electric vehicles charging at home on a 240-volt level 2 charger will draw about 7,200 watts or less. For comparison, a typical electric furnace draws about 10,000 watts and a water heater uses 4,500 watts.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fact-995-september-18-2017-electric-vehicle-charging-home-typically-draws#:~:text=Most%20electric%20vehicles%20charging%20at,water%20heater%20uses%204%2C500%20watts.

So 20,000 would be way overkill. Not to mention that charging on the road would only be intended to get you to the next real charging station.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I'll be curious to see how small this tech can go. Will SS replace the current crop even at the scale of D, C, AA etc. household batteries? I would love some smaller, lighter batteries for some of my applications, but not necessarily if they don't have at least the equivalent number of charge cycles.

 

[skepticalbip]

Those smallish generators are generally between 1,000 to 3,000 watt output, intended for camping or home emergency for lights and small appliances. An auto would need a good deal more power, I would think a 20,000 watt generator pretty much as a minimum, but 30,000 watt more practical, and 40,000 or more if you don't want to leave it running to recharge batteries during rest stops.

Electric vehicles can be charged at power draws comparable to various household appliances. Most electric vehicles charging at home on a 240-volt level 2 charger will draw about 7,200 watts or less. For comparison, a typical electric furnace draws about 10,000 watts and a water heater uses 4,500 watts.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fact-995-september-18-2017-electric-vehicle-charging-home-typically-draws#:~:text=Most%20electric%20vehicles%20charging%20at,water%20heater%20uses%204%2C500%20watts.

So 20,000 would be way overkill. Not to mention that charging on the road would only be intended to get you to the next real charging station.

It depends on how long someone is willing to wait to recharge. With a hybrid, the charging is done while driving. With an electric, charging requires stopping and waiting while charging.

Charging time will depend on how low in power the batteries are and the output of the generator. Assume that you drive five hours using an average of 27HP then you will have depleted 100,000 Watt-hours from your battery. If you use a 3,000W generator to recharge then you will have to wait 33 hours for the recharge before driving on for another five hours, then another 33 hour charge... etc. (Using a 1,000W generator will take 100 hours or four days to recharge). With a 20,000W generator this would change from 5 hours drive and 33 hours recharge to 5 hours drive and 5 hours recharge. A 40,000W generator would reduce the charge time to 2.5 hours after the 5 hours of driving.

Personally, I enjoy road trips and charging stations will be fairly rare along back roads away from the interstate highway for a while yet so, for me, a hybrid that charges while driving makes a hell of a lot more sense than an electric car.

ETA:
What does the power draw of household furnaces and water heaters have to do with operating and charging an electric car?

+ETA:
Electric cars are good for local driving. Drive for a half to one hour during the day then plug it in to recharge overnight for twelve hours.

 

[Treedbear]

One problem with 100% EV is how to heat the cabin in cold weather. I'm thinking that would be a huge drain on the batteries. It wouldn't be a problem with hybrids. They could recapture some of the otherwise wasted heat from the engine. Although if the generator is on a detachable trailer that might not work so well. So in regions where the weather can get cold for a significant length of time a hybrid might be the best choice for now. Of course having a compact, dedicated, propane or diesel-oil burning heater would be another solution. So a 100% EV with an auxiliary heater and an optional trailer for long trips seems like a winning combination. As soon as Black and Decker announces theirs I'm buying!

 

[Jayjay]

One problem with 100% EV is how to heat the cabin in cold weather. I'm thinking that would be a huge drain on the batteries. It wouldn't be a problem with hybrids. They could recapture some of the otherwise wasted heat from the engine. Although if the generator is on a detachable trailer that might not work so well. So in regions where the weather can get cold for a significant length of time a hybrid might be the best choice for now. Of course having a compact, dedicated, propane or diesel-oil burning heater would be another solution. So a 100% EV with an auxiliary heater and an optional trailer for long trips seems like a winning combination. As soon as Black and Decker announces theirs I'm buying!

I would like to see that setup just for the sheer spectacle! Extra points if you have to keep the window open for the diesel-power indoor heater's exhaust pipe.