(split) Affirmative Action discussion

[Metaphor]

The criminals are dead, too.



That's true. Except that it's a false analogy. I don't have stolen goods. I have less and inferior quality goods because of what some people did in the past.

That being said, I didn't ask you about undoing the past, I asked you about increasing the slots, a present day problem in search of a present day solution.

Not everyone can be a doctor. I couldn't be, for example. It's really hard and you have to be really smart. You can increase the slots but that has nothing to do with being racially discriminatory about your admissions policy.

Excuse me, why are you limiting the increase to Law and Med schools?

I'm not doing anything like that: but that appears to me where the most racial discrimination is.

The history of medical education says different. And what about law school? Now you have limited the discussion to just med school. Why the limitations?

The history of medical education did not allow all and sundry in. Not everyone can be a doctor. I want the best, the smartest, to be doctors. I don't want 'C' students to be doctors.

I don't want George W. Bush to be a doctor. Can you imagine what it would be like to have him, hovering above you, ready to make the cut?

Tell, if you and I live in the same neighborhood and a new family moves in, And i take them a potato pie to welcome them to neighborhood, and over the next few weeks, I take them around town, I introduce them to the local schools' principals, show them the best restaurants, where the movie theaters are, etc. I don't do this for you or any of the other people in the neighborhood who have been living there for years. Would you think me discriminating against you by not doing the same for you? is that the first thought you would have if you saw me doing these things?

And when the Asian family moved in, and you said 'fuck them, they are already well represented in the neighbourhood' what would you expect me to say about that?

Damn, you run from the actual questions asked faster than a wolf going after a pork chop. I didn't racialize the family, so all you know they are Asians, or Panamanians. If you don't have answer just say so. If you have never thought about things in a certain way, just say so.

My answer is to STOP DISCRIMINATING BY RACE.

- - - Updated - - -

^Seriously tell us what you really think.
there appears to be a "white push" to the top in commerce, and we have affirmative action in place.
are you saying the "white push" is acceptable to the point where you will sell out just like mentioned in AthenaAwakened's other thread about whiteness..

I don't understand the question slash accusation.

What's the "white push", and what does it have to do with discriminating against Asians in medical school?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The criminals are dead, too.



That's true. Except that it's a false analogy. I don't have stolen goods. I have less and inferior quality goods because of what some people did in the past.

That being said, I didn't ask you about undoing the past, I asked you about increasing the slots, a present day problem in search of a present day solution.

Not everyone can be a doctor. I couldn't be, for example. It's really hard and you have to be really smart. You can increase the slots but that has nothing to do with being racially discriminatory about your admissions policy.

Excuse me, why are you limiting the increase to Law and Med schools?

I'm not doing anything like that: but that appears to me where the most racial discrimination is.

The history of medical education says different. And what about law school? Now you have limited the discussion to just med school. Why the limitations?

The history of medical education did not allow all and sundry in. Not everyone can be a doctor. I want the best, the smartest, to be doctors. I don't want 'C' students to be doctors.

I don't want George W. Bush to be a doctor. Can you imagine what it would be like to have him, hovering above you, ready to make the cut?

Tell, if you and I live in the same neighborhood and a new family moves in, And i take them a potato pie to welcome them to neighborhood, and over the next few weeks, I take them around town, I introduce them to the local schools' principals, show them the best restaurants, where the movie theaters are, etc. I don't do this for you or any of the other people in the neighborhood who have been living there for years. Would you think me discriminating against you by not doing the same for you? is that the first thought you would have if you saw me doing these things?

And when the Asian family moved in, and you said 'fuck them, they are already well represented in the neighbourhood' what would you expect me to say about that?

Damn, you run from the actual questions asked faster than a wolf going after a pork chop. I didn't racialize the family, so all you know they are Asians, or Panamanians. If you don't have answer just say so. If you have never thought about things in a certain way, just say so.

My answer is to STOP DISCRIMINATING BY RACE.

- - - Updated - - -

^Seriously tell us what you really think.
there appears to be a "white push" to the top in commerce, and we have affirmative action in place.
are you saying the "white push" is acceptable to the point where you will sell out just like mentioned in AthenaAwakened's other thread about whiteness..

I don't understand the question slash accusation.

What's the "white push", and what does it have to do with discriminating against Asians in medical school?

And your answer doesn't address the question, ergo it is WRONG

 

[Metaphor]

The criminals are dead, too.



That's true. Except that it's a false analogy. I don't have stolen goods. I have less and inferior quality goods because of what some people did in the past.

That being said, I didn't ask you about undoing the past, I asked you about increasing the slots, a present day problem in search of a present day solution.

Not everyone can be a doctor. I couldn't be, for example. It's really hard and you have to be really smart. You can increase the slots but that has nothing to do with being racially discriminatory about your admissions policy.

Excuse me, why are you limiting the increase to Law and Med schools?

I'm not doing anything like that: but that appears to me where the most racial discrimination is.

The history of medical education says different. And what about law school? Now you have limited the discussion to just med school. Why the limitations?

The history of medical education did not allow all and sundry in. Not everyone can be a doctor. I want the best, the smartest, to be doctors. I don't want 'C' students to be doctors.

I don't want George W. Bush to be a doctor. Can you imagine what it would be like to have him, hovering above you, ready to make the cut?

Tell, if you and I live in the same neighborhood and a new family moves in, And i take them a potato pie to welcome them to neighborhood, and over the next few weeks, I take them around town, I introduce them to the local schools' principals, show them the best restaurants, where the movie theaters are, etc. I don't do this for you or any of the other people in the neighborhood who have been living there for years. Would you think me discriminating against you by not doing the same for you? is that the first thought you would have if you saw me doing these things?

And when the Asian family moved in, and you said 'fuck them, they are already well represented in the neighbourhood' what would you expect me to say about that?

Damn, you run from the actual questions asked faster than a wolf going after a pork chop. I didn't racialize the family, so all you know they are Asians, or Panamanians. If you don't have answer just say so. If you have never thought about things in a certain way, just say so.

My answer is to STOP DISCRIMINATING BY RACE.

- - - Updated - - -

^Seriously tell us what you really think.
there appears to be a "white push" to the top in commerce, and we have affirmative action in place.
are you saying the "white push" is acceptable to the point where you will sell out just like mentioned in AthenaAwakened's other thread about whiteness..

I don't understand the question slash accusation.

What's the "white push", and what does it have to do with discriminating against Asians in medical school?

And your answer doesn't address the question, ergo it is WRONG

I disagree: the solution to discrimination by race is to stop discriminating by race.

A question for you, Athena.

Would you be happy to see George W. Bush holding the scalpel, as you go under the anaesthetic?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And how do we decide when the remaining problem is something else and thus continuing the treatment is a bad idea? (Personally, I think we reached that point decades ago.)

Decades ago? How many decades ago, exactly? When do you think affirmative action* was put into place?

*By affirmative action, I mean the kind designed to help under represented demographics gain jobs and education in fields not typical for that demo. Not the affirmative action that favored white men to the exclusion or near exclusion of any other group.
That has been practiced for centuries.

I would say the 90s at the latest. Perhaps even the 80s. It didn't take all that long for AA to break the back of the discrimination. Sure, there are still some scumbags out there but by now the "cure" is far worse than the disease and furthermore the "cure" perpetuates the disease--we can't hope to cure discrimination so long as AA exists.

 

[none]

@Metaphor... the selection of peoples based on how white they are or appear to be and that selection leading to an elevated status in whatever situation they are in is descriptive of what I called "white push", if you are Asian you ain't white and it isn't because an Asian is Asian that an Asian would experience some ramifications of "white push".
you say you want to stop discrimination based on race, what do you propose to equal the push that minorities experience with that of those whom are either perceived to be white or that are white? we can keep affirmative action in place just like speed limits until you figure out the answer.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, AA was never justified as a remedy, at least not wholecloth. It is only justified in very specific circumstances. You don't defeat discrimination with more discrimination. The better answer always has been and still remains fair and equal treatment for all. If individuals are held back, then they should be moved forward, but only as against those who held them back. Happening to belong to an earmarked grouping based on your skin colour and getting special treatment, good or bad, based on that, is racist discrimination. And worse yet, it is racist discrimination endorsed by the state. To do this and call it "Affirmative Action" or any other sanitized buzzword does not change that fact. The only place I would recommend points in hiring based on race is where the job actually calls for it and you can justify that call. This may allow for a limited amount of "Affirmative Action" if there is a shortage of say female or black police officers, who carry with them by their very race/gender an advantage in handling particular police situations.

I was going with and accepting that assertion by a prior poster, um, Derec. Sort of an "even if AA was justifiable as a remedy."

There should be no groups which are favored. Underrepresented or not. It would be like having a Mexican quota for basketball. The rules of how to get into any given school should not take anything about race into account. Regrettably that is not yet fully the case today. Some practices ("legacy" students for example) lead to a school being very like it was a generation ago. Some Registrars and Admissions Directors are prejudiced. There are things we can do (not necessarily AA) and should do. Education about lingering racism. Education about how to see past personal prejudice. How to judge a person for what they do, not what they are. Etc.

Including discussions like these.

Legacy admissions, while wrong, aren't that big a part of the picture. The big factor is discrimination--we saw how big when California banned it. The result was the number of minorities getting degrees went up. (AA doesn't get anyone into college. All it does it gets them into schools that are too hard for them.)

- - - Updated - - -

No, it isn't. Making an extra effort to find qualified candidates with specific under-represented characteristics does not require they be hired.

So? If you are making a special effort to find qualified candidates of a particular race, how is that not discrimination based on race?

If that's all it were it wouldn't be a big deal. And it totally wouldn't be needed in things that are widely known--such as any high ranked school.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Have you ever thought that there can be no 'plan' to undo the past?

You cannot turn back the hands of time; you can't unscramble the egg. The people who were slaves in the antebellum South are dead and gone; they cannot be made whole. It's quite religious thinking of you though to hope that there's some kind of restorative justice awaiting them. There isn't. They lived and died as property because some brutal people owned them and a brutal society endorsed the ownership. None of these people will see justice.

Exactly. What's done is done, discriminating against white males no will do nothing about the past. It's just punitive and perpetuates the problem.

I agree that there ought to be no barrier to increasing the number of slots of medical and law students, as long as any person admitted is still likely to and capable of finishing the course. But that's not how medical schools work: there are, in fact, a limited number of slots, and that has always been the case.

No. We should be looking to cut the number of law school slots. We have too many as it is.

But limited spots or no, that's still no reason to discriminate by race. Discriminating by race only perpetuates the harm caused by discriminating by race in the past. You cannot cure the disease with more of the disease.

The original AA broke the back of the pattern of discrimination. While ugly it was probably the fastest way to do it. That's long since done, though.

 

[Metaphor]

@Metaphor... the selection of peoples based on how white they are or appear to be and that selection leading to an elevated status in whatever situation they are in is descriptive of what I called "white push", if you are Asian you ain't white and it isn't because an Asian is Asian that an Asian would experience some ramifications "white push".
you say you want to stop discrimination based on race, what do you propose to equal the push that minorities experience with that of those whom are either perceived to be white or that are white? we can keep affirmative action in place just like speed limits until you figure out the answer.

Asians are not perceived to be White. They get better GPAs and better aptitude scores than any other racial grouping, and that's why they are discriminated against.

Affirmative action is not a speed limit. Speed limits apply to everyone. No, affirmative action is like telling Blacks they are allowed to go 90km/hr in suburban streets, and Asians are allowed to go 40km/hr. That protects nobody, and endangers everybody.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Have you ever thought that there can be no 'plan' to undo the past?

You can't undo a crime, but that is hardly an excuse not to pursue criminals. If I unwittingly buy stolen goods, I still have to give them back. These things are true, because we can't undo the past, but we can attempt to make a wronged party whole. And we can try to dissuade future bad behavior

Got a DeLorean with a flux capacitor?

You're trying to steal from the innocent to make up for the sins of their ancestors.

 

[none]

@Metaphor... the selection of peoples based on how white they are or appear to be and that selection leading to an elevated status in whatever situation they are in is descriptive of what I called "white push", if you are Asian you ain't white and it isn't because an Asian is Asian that an Asian would experience some ramifications "white push".
you say you want to stop discrimination based on race, what do you propose to equal the push that minorities experience with that of those whom are either perceived to be white or that are white? we can keep affirmative action in place just like speed limits until you figure out the answer.

Asians are not perceived to be White. They get better GPAs and better aptitude scores than any other racial grouping, and that's why they are discriminated against.

okay.

Affirmative action is not a speed limit. Speed limits apply to everyone. No, affirmative action is like telling Blacks they are allowed to go 90km/hr in suburban streets, and Asians are allowed to go 40km/hr. That protects nobody, and endangers everybody.

so you think it is racist, and you get all emotional about racism, you want to end affirmative action and still haven't figured out a way to end "white push".
so lets just say you want to outlaw racism, do we start shooting people that facilitate "white push" before or after we get rid of affirmative action?

 

[Metaphor]

Asians are not perceived to be White. They get better GPAs and better aptitude scores than any other racial grouping, and that's why they are discriminated against.

okay.

Affirmative action is not a speed limit. Speed limits apply to everyone. No, affirmative action is like telling Blacks they are allowed to go 90km/hr in suburban streets, and Asians are allowed to go 40km/hr. That protects nobody, and endangers everybody.

so you think it is racist, and you get all emotional about racism, you want to end affirmative action and still haven't figured out a way to end "white push".
so lets just say you want to outlaw racism, do we start shooting people that facilitate "white push" before or after we get rid of affirmative action?

I don't know what 'White push' is.

Discrimination by race and gender are already against the law.

 

[none]

I don't know what 'White push' is.

I described it to you, what I meant.

Discrimination by race and gender are already against the law.

then explain why "white push" exists.
"white push" being those that are perceived to be white are selected and that selection leads to an elevated status.
here:

affirmative action refers to admission policies that provide equal access to education for those groups that have been historically excluded or underrepresented, such as women and minorities.

"white push" created the problem, not my fault that those displaced by the selection of those who are white or perceived to be white are minorities.
so basically you say there should be no affirmative action because "white push" is acceptable.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Interesting trap. If you justify discrimination for non-white people by pointing to discrimination in favour of white people, and saying you are offsetting it, then you have now justified the discrimination in favour of the white people, haven't you? Should the latter still be frowned upon? Should it still be illegal?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The criminals are dead, too.



That's true. Except that it's a false analogy. I don't have stolen goods. I have less and inferior quality goods because of what some people did in the past.

That being said, I didn't ask you about undoing the past, I asked you about increasing the slots, a present day problem in search of a present day solution.

Not everyone can be a doctor. I couldn't be, for example. It's really hard and you have to be really smart. You can increase the slots but that has nothing to do with being racially discriminatory about your admissions policy.

Excuse me, why are you limiting the increase to Law and Med schools?

I'm not doing anything like that: but that appears to me where the most racial discrimination is.

The history of medical education says different. And what about law school? Now you have limited the discussion to just med school. Why the limitations?

The history of medical education did not allow all and sundry in. Not everyone can be a doctor. I want the best, the smartest, to be doctors. I don't want 'C' students to be doctors.

I don't want George W. Bush to be a doctor. Can you imagine what it would be like to have him, hovering above you, ready to make the cut?

Tell, if you and I live in the same neighborhood and a new family moves in, And i take them a potato pie to welcome them to neighborhood, and over the next few weeks, I take them around town, I introduce them to the local schools' principals, show them the best restaurants, where the movie theaters are, etc. I don't do this for you or any of the other people in the neighborhood who have been living there for years. Would you think me discriminating against you by not doing the same for you? is that the first thought you would have if you saw me doing these things?

And when the Asian family moved in, and you said 'fuck them, they are already well represented in the neighbourhood' what would you expect me to say about that?

Damn, you run from the actual questions asked faster than a wolf going after a pork chop. I didn't racialize the family, so all you know they are Asians, or Panamanians. If you don't have answer just say so. If you have never thought about things in a certain way, just say so.

My answer is to STOP DISCRIMINATING BY RACE.

- - - Updated - - -

^Seriously tell us what you really think.
there appears to be a "white push" to the top in commerce, and we have affirmative action in place.
are you saying the "white push" is acceptable to the point where you will sell out just like mentioned in AthenaAwakened's other thread about whiteness..

I don't understand the question slash accusation.

What's the "white push", and what does it have to do with discriminating against Asians in medical school?

And your answer doesn't address the question, ergo it is WRONG

I disagree: the solution to discrimination by race is to stop discriminating by race.

A question for you, Athena.

Would you be happy to see George W. Bush holding the scalpel, as you go under the anaesthetic?

Is it discrimination to show around a new family and not show around an established family or NOT?

That's the question on deck.

You don't want to answer. I understand, because you and I both know the answer. What I don't know is if you are scare of being wrong, scared of losing an argument, scared of embarrassment, or scared of facing a part of you that isn't necessarily on the side of the angels.

 

[none]

@Jolly Penguin, Metaphor
"white push" as I have described also disfranchises white people.
those white people disenfranchised by "white push" are probably what concerns you, but at this time I don't think anybody is discussing that.
coming from a minority background that has been discriminated against is what affirmative action is about.
"white push" discriminates against all ethnicities really, but nobody wants to talk about that.
so in order to equalize statuses heritage is considered, maybe not the best way but we'd have to dig into each persons heritage. but I don't think we have to if we acknowledge that "white push" exists.
it is kinda of a stop-gap thing for me, haven't really argued against affirmative action or for affirmative action and really never had a conversation about it until today.
racism is wrong but where does it say it is illegal? I don't think it says racism is illegal, so you arguments shouldn't include "be cause it's racist"

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Is it discrimination to show around a new family and not show around an established family or NOT?

Technically, yes, that would be discrimination. Not all discrimination is unjustified though, and I see nothing wrong with showing a new family around town. Are you attempting an analogy for race here though? Because new immigrants can be any race.

You don't want to answer. I understand, because you and I both know the answer. What I don't know is if you are scare of being wrong, scared of losing an argument, scared of embarrassment, or scared of facing a part of you that isn't necessarily on the side of the angels.

He was confused by it, and so am I.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Technically, yes, that would be discrimination. Not all discrimination is unjustified though, and I see nothing wrong with showing a new family around town. Are you attempting an analogy for race here though? Because new immigrants can be any race.

You don't want to answer. I understand, because you and I both know the answer. What I don't know is if you are scare of being wrong, scared of losing an argument, scared of embarrassment, or scared of facing a part of you that isn't necessarily on the side of the angels.

He was confused by it, and so am I.

Well of course you are confused. Taking a role outside your initial position is neither one of your strong suits. But that is what is required. If you are not up to challenge, that's sad, but not unexpected.

 

[none]

@ Jolly Penguin, Metaphor..
yeah, affirmative action ain't perfect to you but it is better than your alternative that you have offered.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Technically, yes, that would be discrimination. Not all discrimination is unjustified though, and I see nothing wrong with showing a new family around town. Are you attempting an analogy for race here though? Because new immigrants can be any race.



He was confused by it, and so am I.

Well of course you are confused. Taking a role outside your initial position is neither one of your strong suits. But that is what is required. If you are not up to challenge, that's sad, but not unexpected.

You can drop your smug superior attitude. I answered your question. Now is your turn to actually make a point.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

@ Jolly Penguin, Metaphor..
yeah, affirmative action ain't perfect to you but it is better than your alternative that you have offered.

How about ignoring race and using socioeconomic status as a criteria instead? If you need to give a leg up to the disenfranchised, why bother to care about why exactly they're disenfranchised?