Superbugs: The end of anti-biotics

[Jolly_Penguin]

Anybody up to speed on this?

http://news.nationalpost.com/health...the-road-for-antibiotics-just-reached-the-u-s

Apparently a superbug resistant to even the best antibiotics has now come to the good ol' USA. Even if this turns out to be a false scare, it does seem only a matter of time before antibiotics become a thing of the past. Evolution in action as we kill bacteria and the hardiest bacteria survives and spreads.

What'll we do once antibiotics are no longer a thing, and what will come next in health science to keep folks alive? Are we headed for another major cataclysm?

 

[untermensche]

It wasn't the best antibiotic we had.

It was the last antibiotic that had some success.

People die from infections we can't stop every day.

If you have an intact immune system most infections can be cured with current antibiotics.

It is those with compromised immune systems, or compromised circulation like with diabetics, that have problems.

 

[Keith&Co.]

We also have people who take the best antibiotics we have but stop taking them when they feel better, before they fully wipe out the infection.

So some of the bugs survive and gain an immunity, so that the next time, even those with healthy immune systems will have the problems.

 

[untermensche]

We also have people who take the best antibiotics we have but stop taking them when they feel better, before they fully wipe out the infection.

So some of the bugs survive and gain an immunity, so that the next time, even those with healthy immune systems will have the problems.

It is a war we are losing.

One way to make all antibiotics effective again is to stop giving them.

In time most of the bacteria will revert to their wild form and the antibiotics will be effective again.

Many will die from curable infections however.

 

[rjh01]

We also have people who take the best antibiotics we have but stop taking them when they feel better, before they fully wipe out the infection.

So some of the bugs survive and gain an immunity, so that the next time, even those with healthy immune systems will have the problems.

It is a war we are losing.

One way to make all antibiotics effective again is to stop giving them.

In time most of the bacteria will revert to their wild form and the antibiotics will be effective again.

Many will die from curable infections however.

This might work. However I doubt if the entire world would co-operate for several years while many people die because they do not have access to antibiotics.

 

[Underseer]

We also have people who take the best antibiotics we have but stop taking them when they feel better, before they fully wipe out the infection.

So some of the bugs survive and gain an immunity, so that the next time, even those with healthy immune systems will have the problems.

It is a war we are losing.

One way to make all antibiotics effective again is to stop giving them.

In time most of the bacteria will revert to their wild form and the antibiotics will be effective again.

Many will die from curable infections however.

Would that actually work?

 

[untermensche]

It is a war we are losing.

One way to make all antibiotics effective again is to stop giving them.

In time most of the bacteria will revert to their wild form and the antibiotics will be effective again.

Many will die from curable infections however.

Would that actually work?

It would work, the only question is how long would it take for bacteria to return to their wild types.

But it will never be done.

We are not going to just let people die from infections that could be treated.

 

[fromderinside]

From happy camper land one returns to previous form when pressure is removed. The answer is no. I leave it for you to research why.

 

[untermensche]

From happy camper land one returns to previous form when pressure is removed. The answer is no. I leave it for you to research why.

One was a certain way before pressures were applied for reasons.

Those reasons remain when pressure is removed.

 

[Keith&Co.]

From happy camper land one returns to previous form when pressure is removed. The answer is no. I leave it for you to research why.

One was a certain way before pressures were applied for reasons.

Those reasons remain when pressure is removed.

If we stop using Antibody X, then there is no selection pressure to retain a resistance to Antibody X. So a strain could mutate and evolve away from that resistance, sure.

However, there is nothing forcing the strain to evolve away from that resistance.

At best you could say it 'might' work, not that it 'will' work.

 

[untermensche]

One was a certain way before pressures were applied for reasons.

Those reasons remain when pressure is removed.

If we stop using Antibody X, then there is no selection pressure to retain a resistance to Antibody X. So a strain could mutate and evolve away from that resistance, sure.

However, there is nothing forcing the strain to evolve away from that resistance.

At best you could say it 'might' work, not that it 'will' work.

The wild type was the wild type for reasons.

Too many for anybody to understand why.

Remove the artificial man-made pressure and all those same reasons remain and over time the wild type will take over.

That is the thing about bacteria. They quickly adapt. If they are not killed off.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The wild type was the wild type for reasons.

Too many for anybody to understand why.

Remove the artificial man-made pressure and all those same reasons remain and over time the wild type will take over.

I really don't think that's how it works.
Exactly how does DNA determine which are the artificial and which are the natural selection pressures?

 

[untermensche]

The wild type was the wild type for reasons.

Too many for anybody to understand why.

Remove the artificial man-made pressure and all those same reasons remain and over time the wild type will take over.

I really don't think that's how it works.
Exactly how does DNA determine which are the artificial and which are the natural selection pressures?

DNA frequency in the population changes in response to ability to survive.

The wild type was the wild type because it survived best.

It will still be that which survives best when the artificial pressure is removed.

 

[fromderinside]

One was a certain way before pressures were applied for reasons.

Those reasons remain when pressure is removed.

If we stop using Antibody X, then there is no selection pressure to retain a resistance to Antibody X. So a strain could mutate and evolve away from that resistance, sure.

However, there is nothing forcing the strain to evolve away from that resistance.

At best you could say it 'might' work, not that it 'will' work.

First one need to know whether that pressure were established throughout the population which is probably given antibiotics have been in more or less universal circulation for over 70 years. There may be very little wild type from 50 years ago left. That's one. Other conditions are much different now with about five billion more people, many more cows, chickens, fish, engineered crops, etc out there. Forests have changed drastically.

so there' really little to recommend conditions will revert to anything. They will come to a new norm which as Keith&Co points out leaves the entire 'wild type' argument way out there.

 

[untermensche]

If we stop using Antibody X, then there is no selection pressure to retain a resistance to Antibody X. So a strain could mutate and evolve away from that resistance, sure.

However, there is nothing forcing the strain to evolve away from that resistance.

At best you could say it 'might' work, not that it 'will' work.

First one need to know whether that pressure were established throughout the population which is probably given antibiotics have been in more or less universal circulation for over 70 years. There may be very little wild type from 50 years ago left. That's one. Other conditions are much different now with about five billion more people, many more cows, chickens, fish, engineered crops, etc out there. Forests have changed drastically.

so there' really little to recommend conditions will revert to anything. They will come to a new norm which as Keith&Co points out leaves the entire 'wild type' argument way out there.

The wild type is everywhere.

And it will once again fill niches it is best at filling if artificial pressures are removed.

 

[fromderinside]

First one need to know whether that pressure were established throughout the population which is probably given antibiotics have been in more or less universal circulation for over 70 years. There may be very little wild type from 50 years ago left. That's one. Other conditions are much different now with about five billion more people, many more cows, chickens, fish, engineered crops, etc out there. Forests have changed drastically.

so there' really little to recommend conditions will revert to anything. They will come to a new norm which as Keith&Co points out leaves the entire 'wild type' argument way out there.

The wild type is everywhere.

And it will once again fill niches it is best at filling if artificial pressures are removed.

So why is wild type everywhere if drive was being applied everywhere for 70 years on a 15 minute cycle species or approximately 2 million generations.

 

[untermensche]

The wild type is everywhere.

And it will once again fill niches it is best at filling if artificial pressures are removed.

So why is wild type everywhere if drive was being applied everywhere for 70 years on a 15 minute cycle species or approximately 2 million generations.

Not everywhere.

In every generation there are some of the wild type.

But they are the ones most susceptible to antibiotics so they are quickly wiped out.

 

[Keith&Co.]

DNA frequency in the population changes in response to ability to survive.

No argument there.

The wild type was the wild type because it survived best.

I think you're making an artificial distinction of the 'wild' type that has nothing to do with reality.

It will still be that which survives best when the artificial pressure is removed.

From the point of view of a bug (which is now a superbug with resistance to lots of forms of antibiotics), there's no distinction between artificial and natural pressures. From time to time, its environment includes antibodies.
What will cause the strain to abandon a successful resistance based on a human decision to stop using an antibody?

- - - Updated - - -

So why is wild type everywhere if drive was being applied everywhere for 70 years on a 15 minute cycle species or approximately 2 million generations.

Not everywhere.

In every generation there are some of the wild type.

But they are the ones most susceptible to antibiotics so they are quickly wiped out.

Then those aren't the superbugs mentioned in the OP. Why bring them up? What the fuck will they have to do with the evolution of the superbug strains in the future if we stop applying a given antibody?

 

[fromderinside]

Has everyone forgotten how the immune system adapts? Bugs that have been wiped out by the immune system with the aid of antibiotics will still be acting as if antibiotics were there for some generations, perhaps for the entire time manlike beings remain on the earth. We aren't what we were when antibiotics came on the scene.

 

[untermensche]

The wild type was the wild type because it survived best.

I think you're making an artificial distinction of the 'wild' type that has nothing to do with reality.

It's not artificial. The wild type is the dominant type that existed before the introduction of antibiotics.

It will still be that which survives best when the artificial pressure is removed.

From the point of view of a bug (which is now a superbug with resistance to lots of forms of antibiotics), there's no distinction between artificial and natural pressures.

True but there is a distinction between present and absent pressures.

If the man made pressures are removed then conditions return to the conditions that existed prior to the introduction of those pressures.

And the type that was dominant in those prior conditions will return to being dominant again.

Not everywhere.

In every generation there are some of the wild type.

But they are the ones most susceptible to antibiotics so they are quickly wiped out.

Then those aren't the superbugs mentioned in the OP. Why bring them up? What the fuck will they have to do with the evolution of the superbug strains in the future if we stop applying a given antibody?

They are the type of bacteria that dominated before the "superbugs" were able to dominate because of human introduced pressures.

And the reason you bring them up is because they are still there, only in much smaller numbers.

So if the human pressure is removed they will dominate again.

And there is no reason for hostility.