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Supreme Court upholds University of Texas affirmative action plan

How do we make so? How do we erase the history we have, the results of that history, and its future ramifications?
You do not erase history but at the same time we do not have to continue to be defined by it. Just because there were Jim Crow laws 50 years ago does not mean whites need to be discriminated against today.

We have to live in the world we have and what we SHOULD do is make better of it as we go through it.
We are not going to make it better by perpetuating racial discrimination. Which is what racial preferences/AA is.

If you have any suggestions how we SHOULD do that, concrete specific suggestions, please do share.
We could start by not discriminating by race when it comes to college admissions etc.

Exactly what do you know about diversity programs at HBCUs?
I know that they don't particularly work and therefore, under the logic of AA proponents, they need to start discriminating against their black applicants and start admitting white students with like SAT scores of 1000 and 2.5 GPAs. :)
 
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/polit...firmative-action-texas-immigration/index.html





Only evidently that isn't so. This is a decision to green light the explicit selection of one person over another based on race. The previous policy of admitting the top X% regardless of race isn't racist. This is racist. This was the case of a white woman excluded because she is white, but I wonder just how much more of us Asian people will be excluded from US schools because we are Asian.

No, the previous system of admitting students was race based, denying admission to minorities and to women because they were minorities and women.

This case was about the University of Texas Law school. There is no reason to believe that higher LSAT scores mean that the candidates are more qualified for admission than a candidate with a slightly lower score. The LSAT scores are used as a threshold of the minimum ability required to learn the subject matter in the time available. All candidates with scores above the threshold are consider to be equal in their ability to absorb the material in the time available.

This is complete bullshit, falsified by science. When LSAT scores are combined with high school GPA (both factors inherently devalued by any consideration of race), their median correlation with first year GPA in Law School is .48. They are far better objective predictors of how well the student will absorb the material in their college course than anything else, especially than the total bullshit factors that are used instead under the AA policy. In addition, this notable predictive value is even greater for the group of students in question, those not automatically admitted by being in the top 10% of their high school class. The top 10% don't differ much from each other in college GPA, because they mostly all get A's. There is what is called a "ceiling effect" in being able to measure differences in how the top 1% learn compared to that at the top 10%. That means they are artificially constraining the observed correlation between LSAT and college GPA. If those top 10% were excluded from the analyses, the correlation would be notably higher than .48. IOW, two students above a minimum threshold still differ in their ability and willingness to absorb the material in their college courses, and that will and ability are objectively predicted by differences in their LSAT.


Then other considerations, including race to provide minorities an advantage previously denied to them

This is also bullshit. No valid methods are used to determine which applicants actually had advantages denied to them. What they do is confer an advantage or disadvantage to applicants based upon whether they share a racial category with other people in the past who were conferred an advantage or disadvantage due to similar racism.
What your claiming would actually entail not collecting race information at all, but rather collecting only detailed personal information about each applicants history, including parental SES and education, etc..

and because they will be more likely to service their own communities that are underserved by lawyers.

This is a completely separate issue and the only statement that that isn't false, though it is unsupported as to whether it is true. U of Texas could legitimately consider the deficiencies in their communities in term of lawyers serving various populations or areas of law. However, it is not certain that the black community is better served by black lawyers and whether non-black lawyers are not equally willing and capable to provide those services. Regardless, the admissions decisions should then directly ask applicants about and consider their stated area of focus in law school and their professional goals rather than presume that any black lawyer is better for the needs of the black community than any white lawyer. Does a black lawyer who goes to work to defend corporations that poison black communities better serve the black community than a white lawyer with a conscience that defends the poor? Bottom line is if that were the honest actually motive behind such admissions, they could and would get explicitly commitment from those students that they will spend a certain number of years serving particular communities, and then race of the lawyer is a non-issue.

Was Johnny Cochran good for the black community? Was his use of race-baiting to get an obvious murderer off good for the black community? OJ didn't give a shit about the black community, and explicitly denied any connection to it, stating "I am not black, I am OJ." Other black public figures have criticized his failure to do anything for the black community or speak out against injustices. Yet, he got away with murder because a black lawyer used both his own and OJs blackness to convince a black jury that he didn't do it, because he's one of us, and its us against them. That's a slight tangent, but its relevant to your and this policy's assumption that race of the lawyer a critical factor in whether they positively serve the black community.
 
Well, wouldn't the main thrust of the OP's point be that race shouldn't be a defining characteristic in society and any steps taken to have it continue to be so would be steps backwards?

How do we make so? How do we erase the history we have, the results of that history, and its future ramifications?

If we are talking what SHOULD be, we all should be born rich and smart and beautiful and safe. We should never suffer. We should never know sorrow or grief. We should always be happy and joyful.

And yet we are not and do not.

We have to live in the world we have and what we SHOULD do is make better of it as we go through it. If you have any suggestions how we SHOULD do that, concrete specific suggestions, please do share.

My suggestion in all of these threads has been to ignore race and give preferential admission based on socioeconomic status instead. If historical conditions have made it so that 80% of the lowest socioeconomic status are black, then 80% of the recipients of that aid would then be black. Upper and middle class blacks would not benefit from this and lower class whites and Asians who are experiencing these results to completely different historical factors would benefit from it.
 
Well, wouldn't the main thrust of the OP's point be that race shouldn't be a defining characteristic in society and any steps taken to have it continue to be so would be steps backwards?
"defining characteristic" or a "characteristic of consideration"? Unless I'm mistaken, colleges don't have piles of applications stacked by race and they just randomly pick quota'd numbers from each stack.

You are mistaken. Once the initial acceptances based on valid criteria are made, they look at the racial breakdown if the % of certain groups isn't high enough, then the applications do get sorted by race and only those in certain groups get reconsidered to find any excuse to admit them. No, they don't pick from those groups randomly, but race is still THE strongest determining factor of who gets picked because it determines whether you are even considered.

The assertion about "one of many factors" is completely dishonest. If the other factors favored the minority applicant there is zero need to consider race at all, so it wouldn't even info that is collected. The sole circumstance where race becomes a factor at all is when the other factors favor a different person not in that group, thus only by considering race would a member of that group be chosen. IOW, race is inherently a non-factor and shouldn't be collected or it is THE determining factor used to over-ride the decision favored by the other factors.

What this and all AA policies do is continue to legitimize the use of race as the determining factor in a decision of how the treat people, over riding other more objectively relevant considerations about the people as individuals.
 
However, the Texas Law school policy does not use race as a defining characteristic in whom they select, but as one of a number of factors.

Does that matter?
Obviously it does. Otherwise neither the SCOTUS nor I would think otherwise.
Would it stop being racist if a white supremacist only discriminated against black people as one among a number of other factors?
Your question is silly. It is not racist now. But it would begin racist if a white supremacist used such a subterfuge to discriminate against black people.
 
Your question is silly. It is not racist now. But it would begin racist if a white supremacist used such a subterfuge to discriminate against black people.
And laughing dog does not even realize the irony of what he is saying...
 
What this and all AA policies do is continue to legitimize the use of race as the determining factor in a decision of how the treat people, over riding other more objectively relevant considerations about the people as individuals.
You keep repeating this false generalization. Whether or not AA "legitimizes" the use of race as the determining factor in a decision on how to treat people depends on how AA is implemented.
 
Well, if white people want political favoritism to benefit them, they shouldn't vote for Donald Trump. If they're not going to support the next President, they shouldn't expect her to support them.

You mean the next President of the United States should just say "fuck you" to any one that didn't vote for them?

Really?
 
Similarly, they are saying that a black law student is, on average, more valuable to them than a white law student.
On what basis do you draw that conclusion?

Because the consideration of race would do nothing to alter the proportional makeup of the students, if they were not making that assumption.

Either AA does nothing or it uses racist assumptions to shift the result away from what considering all of the non-race factors produce. Those are the only logical possibilities.
 
On what basis do you draw that conclusion?

Because the consideration of race would do nothing to alter the proportional makeup of the students, if they were not making that assumption.
Are you a sock of Tom Sawyer who uses false reasoning? This has nothing to do with candidates on average.
Either AA does nothing or it uses racist assumptions to shift the result away from what considering all of the non-race factors produce. Those are the only logical possibilities.
No, they are the only logical possibilities your ideologically limited mind will admit.
 
What this and all AA policies do is continue to legitimize the use of race as the determining factor in a decision of how the treat people, over riding other more objectively relevant considerations about the people as individuals.
You keep repeating this false generalization. Whether or not AA "legitimizes" the use of race as the determining factor in a decision on how to treat people depends on how AA is implemented.

Nope. I explained in detail how the only logical possibilities are that race is not a factor at all or is the determining factor that changes the results favored by all the other factors. That is the only way that the consideration of race could have any impact on the % of students from various groups.
Doing this is inherent to any use of race in the decision.
You have as always offered zero argument against this and simply deny basic logical realities.
 
Because the consideration of race would do nothing to alter the proportional makeup of the students, if they were not making that assumption.
This has nothing to do with candidates on average.

Your failure to understand how proportions relate to averages is a mathematical illiteracy I don't have the motivation to correct.

Either AA does nothing or it uses racist assumptions to shift the result away from what considering all of the non-race factors produce. Those are the only logical possibilities.
No, they are the only logical possibilities your ideologically limited mind will admit.

I explained why they are the only possibilities (it's actually just simple math), and you offer no rebuttal other than blind dismissal.
 
Similarly, they are saying that a black law student is, on average, more valuable to them than a white law student.
On what basis do you draw that conclusion?

I assume that you're looking for a more profound rationale than because they were touting that the effect of this policy having them go from 3% black students to 20% black students as a positive development. They felt that a more racially diverse student body was a positive thing and therefore there was added value to having a higher proportion of black students amongst who they admitted. Similarly, if they were to make a statement saying how they're proud of the fact that students with a 4.0 GPA apply to their school in higher numbers than other schools, it would mean that they value high GPA in their students.
 
This has nothing to do with candidates on average.

Your failure to understand how proportions relate to averages is a mathematical illiteracy I don't have the motivation to correct.

Either AA does nothing or it uses racist assumptions to shift the result away from what considering all of the non-race factors produce. Those are the only logical possibilities.
No, they are the only logical possibilities your ideologically limited mind will admit.

I explained why they are the only possibilities (it's actually just simple math), and you offer no rebuttal other than blind dismissal.

It's not even a question here. UT went to the USSC to defend its program specifically intended to admit more people of certain races based on their race, not deny it.
 
You keep repeating this false generalization. Whether or not AA "legitimizes" the use of race as the determining factor in a decision on how to treat people depends on how AA is implemented.

Nope. I explained in detail how the only logical possibilities are that race is not a factor at all or is the determining factor that changes the results favored by all the other factors.
Your explanation is based the fallacy of the excluded middle and on a particular implementation of AA. It is both logical invalid and untethered to the reality of this situation.
That is the only way that the consideration of race could have any impact on the % of students from various groups.
Doing this is inherent to any use of race in the decision.
You have as always offered zero argument against this and simply deny basic logical realities.
As always, you confuse your inability to comprehend any post that does not conform to your ideologically bound counterfactual opinions with the lack of an argument or denying basic logic realities.
 
On what basis do you draw that conclusion?

I assume that you're looking for a more profound rationale than because they were touting that the effect of this policy having them go from 3% black students to 20% black students as a positive development. They felt that a more racially diverse student body was a positive thing and therefore there was added value to having a higher proportion of black students amongst who they admitted. Similarly, if they were to make a statement saying how they're proud of the fact that students with a 4.0 GPA apply to their school in higher numbers than other schools, it would mean that they value high GPA in their students.
"Added value" in the sense they feel there will be more graduated lawyers from their law school willing to service an under-represented group. But I fail to see what that has to do with students on average.
 
Nope. I explained in detail how the only logical possibilities are that race is not a factor at all or is the determining factor that changes the results favored by all the other factors.
Your explanation is based the fallacy of the excluded middle and on a particular implementation of AA. It is both logical invalid and untethered to the reality of this situation.

Nope. Their is no excluded middle, which is why you have not and cannot explicate what it is. Many things in reality are in fact logically confined to one of two possibilities. You are engaging in the fallacy of presuming that all dichotomies are false.

That is the only way that the consideration of race could have any impact on the % of students from various groups.
Doing this is inherent to any use of race in the decision.
You have as always offered zero argument against this and simply deny basic logical realities.
As always, you confuse your inability to comprehend any post that does not conform to your ideologically bound counterfactual opinions with the lack of an argument or denying basic logic realities.

You have made no attempt to even present an argument, so how could I fail to comprehend it? You have simply denied that 1 + 1 = 2, without any support whatsoever.
 
This has nothing to do with candidates on average.

Your failure to understand how proportions relate to averages is a mathematical illiteracy I don't have the motivation to correct.
Translation: outside of bluster and bullshit, I have no argument.


I explained why they are the only possibilities (it's actually just simple math), and you offer no rebuttal other than blind dismissal.
Then you failed simple math.

- - - Updated - - -

You have made no attempt to even present an argument, so how could I fail to comprehend it? You have simply denied that 1 + 1 = 2, without any support whatsoever.
Try having the kid around the corner read and explain the posts to you.
 
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