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Supreme Court's scientifically illiterate decision will cost lives

... The point is that you, Sachs and Cuomo produced no scientific evidence that it's right. It isn't extremist language to say a number was pulled out of his ass when it's plain that Cuomo gave less thought to whether 1% capacity was an appropriate limit than the SCOTUS majority gave:
Covid-19 is novel, meaning new. We do know it is highly contagious especially because it seems to spread even from asymptomatic people. Especially among those indoors, closely packed, and singing for a period of time greater than 15 minutes.
What's your point? Are parishioners closely packed and singing for a period of time greater than 15 minutes at the NY Diocese churches and at Agudath Israel of Kew Garden Hills?

Currently we lack the studies to be able to say X will work or Y won't work... so there is a factor of safety involved.

It isn't "scientific" because we simply haven't had the time,
So, you don't need to be "scientific" in order for judges rejecting your authority to be proof they're "scientifically illiterate"?

And this is the stupidity of the SCOTUS decision as it cited policies on things that weren't gatherings and comparing them to policies on events that were gatherings.
And global warming is stupid because it's cold out today. I get that you aren't a lawyer and probably aren't experienced at reading SCOTUS rulings, but you should at least be able to tell that your objection has already been addressed. Did you even read the post you replied to? Which part of "That's not the court's objection; that's an out-of-context fragment taken from the background information the court supplied to explain which legal standard is applicable." didn't you understand? Judges write complicated arguments. When a judge in effect says "A and B imply C; D and E imply F; C and F imply G.", any non-lawyer who's so inclined can read it and say "The judge says A implies G! That's so stupid!".

The Court's decision amounts to "If you want to infringe Americans' constitutional rights, you need a better reason than 'Here's a number I pulled out of my ass.'". It's kind of funny watching so many people lose their collective minds over a court finding that a local official wrote an executive order so poorly that his subjects don't have to obey him. And Dr. Haidt says leftists don't value authority...

As a reminder, the heavily masked protests after the latest police killing, saw no uptick in Covid-19 cases in the north. Several outbreaks tied to churches have been reported.
As a reminder,

"The District Court noted that “there ha[d] not been any COVID–19 outbreak in any of the Diocese’s churches since they reopened,” and it praised the Diocese’s record in combatting the spread of the disease. ... It found that the Diocese had been constantly “ahead of the curve, enforcing stricter
safety protocols than the State required.” Ibid. Similarly, Agudath Israel notes that “[t]he Governor does not dispute that [it] ha rigorously implemented and adhered to all health protocols and that there has been no outbreak of COVID–19 in [its] congregations.”"


But hey, they're churches and some other churches had outbreaks, so shut 'em down. I take it after the latest police killing we need to defund the police?
 
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I asked about scientists.
I notice that you couldn't come up with any.
Tom

So doctors and health professionals are not scientists. Um, okay.

Correct.

Dr Laura and Kent Hovind both have PhDs. Doesn't make them scientists either.

That's something religious folks don't seem to understand. We secularists don't put as much stock in credentials as religious folks do. Somebody has to tell me useful and evidenced things to get me to take them seriously. Not just make a claim and put some letters after their name. It's religious people who put that kind of Faith in human authority.
Tom
 
As a reminder, the heavily masked protests after the latest police killing, saw no uptick in Covid-19 cases in the north. Several outbreaks tied to churches have been reported.

De Blasio Tells Covid Contract Tracers Not to Ask Positive Cases If They’ve Attended BLM Protests

Not asking probably gets more cooperation. It's not like you can contact-trace a protest.

New York City’s coronavirus contact-tracing force are not asking those who test positive for COVID-19 whether they recently attended a Black Lives Matter demonstration, a city spokesperson confirmed.

Coronavirus Cases Spike In Los Angeles County Linked Protests

This week, the top public health official of Los Angeles County claimed that the protests could have been the reason why the county has witnessed a recent spike in COVID-19 cases.

In an interview with the Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer said that it is “highly likely” that the rallies on police brutality and racial injustice could have led to the significant increase in coronavirus cases in the area.

:confused2:

Note that there are other factors at work and she has no evidence supporting her position.
 
What's your point? Are parishioners closely packed and singing for a period of time greater than 15 minutes at the NY Diocese churches and at Agudath Israel of Kew Garden Hills?
It means that there hasn't been a significant amount of time to have things in black and white regarding the extent of needed protocols to allow larger gatherings while not leading to outbreaks.

Currently we lack the studies to be able to say X will work or Y won't work... so there is a factor of safety involved.

It isn't "scientific" because we simply haven't had the time,
So, you don't need to be "scientific" in order for judges rejecting your authority to be proof they're "scientifically illiterate"?
They are scientifically illiterate for failing even providing an analogy.

And this is the stupidity of the SCOTUS decision as it cited policies on things that weren't gatherings and comparing them to policies on events that were gatherings.
And global warming is stupid because it's cold out today. I get that you aren't a lawyer and probably aren't experienced at reading SCOTUS rulings, but you should at least be able to tell that your objection has already been addressed. Did you even read the post you replied to? Which part of "That's not the court's objection; that's an out-of-context fragment taken from the background information the court supplied to explain which legal standard is applicable." didn't you understand? Judges write complicated arguments. When a judge in effect says "A and B imply C; D and E imply F; C and F imply G.", any non-lawyer who's so inclined can read it and say "The judge says A implies G! That's so stupid!".

The Court's decision amounts to "If you want to infringe Americans' constitutional rights, you need a better reason than 'Here's a number I pulled out of my ass.'".
With a novel virus, we are stuck with best educated guesses and conservative policies. This is where a court should not be second guessing health experts. Courts typically try not to meddle in local affairs.


But hey, they're churches and some other churches had outbreaks, so shut 'em down. I take it after the latest police killing we need to defund the police?
Large indoor gatherings have been limited. This includes churches. SCOTUS is wrong to say that policy was put forth to "single out houses of worship for especially harsh treatment".
 
It means that there hasn't been a significant amount of time to have things in black and white regarding the extent of needed protocols to allow larger gatherings while not leading to outbreaks.

That's a significant thing. Right now, in our pandemic angst, people are all emotional and complaining about everything. One complaint is the sheer complexity of rules--like with schools. I don't know if you know much about the school protocols...but in some areas you could have 3 kids and 3 different protocols because they are in different schools in the same town. So a lot of people are complaining. And this is also a common complaint by conservatives against a tax code and corporate regulations in general...thus why Trump had said for every one regulation you add, remove two. So...that's the thing here: having a simple rule is expedient and beneficial because it is streamlined. The core assumption beneath "well, what about building size" is that adding complexity to protocols is always beneficial as opposed to hurrying up to get the protocol out because the government has to react very quickly. So...there are several factors that go into creating a policy and expediency, convenience, streamlining are part of that as much as science is. So if a person observes that a particular thing that the SC says about policy X is scientifically illiterate, it doesn't follow that there is a burden to prove absolutely everything about policy X was optimized for every case under the sun using science, even ignoring the additional ridiculous constraint that all such science must be peer-reviewed. Take, for example, balconies. So what if a church has upper levels? Sounds even riskier because the coughing and singing and whatever else may create clouds raining down on everyone on the lower floor. So, do we want to wait for highly optimized protocols that include building size, how many feet the altar is from the pews, if it has balconies, ...no, that's even more lawsuits. But what about building size? So...what exactly...you can have p% capacity and so a 1000 seat building should have let's say 10% or 100 people allowed? And that is expected to carry roughly the same risk as a 100 seat building with just 10 people. BUT does it? No, it doesn't. The assumption there is that there is something linearly proportional but there are aspects (or components) to the risk that you would reasonably expect to be non-linear. Here's an example: if you have 10 people in a room and everyone shakes everyone else's hands, you get O(n^2) handshakes...likewise if you have 100 people in a room, you still have O(n^2) handshakes. But it may be even way worse than that. Let's suppose you have 1 person without a mask who is infected and let's suppose that within an hour of them breathing and coughing in a 1000-seat building, they've pretty much saturated the the building with covid risk. Or let's suppose, that this 1 person wore a mask on but after 3 hours, even with a 1000-seat building, they've pretty much saturated the building with covid risk. It goes beyond delivering a complex formula to people so they know what their capacity ought to be and expecting them to go to some website, enter a bunch of things in a form and getting out a number and then expecting police to be able to figure out how to enforce all that. It's also that in the latter case, the component of risk to people in a church is so high, that you do want to have a cutoff of 10 people (or whatever) even in a 1000 seat religious building. Now all this said about complexity and how we want to streamline rules in a pandemic for the purpose of understanding, one could also argue using science that the simplicity and quick turnaround time of science-based protocols saves more lives than taking time and adding complexity. Does anybody know any of these things I have discussed? Yes! The health experts know much of it and they are relied upon when governments make the rules. Science is a component to the rules because the health experts are either scientists themselves or get educated on the science. Trying to redo the legislation from the bench because the justices are ignorant of the work that goes into the protocols is exactly what conservatives complain about--judicial activism. Moreover, the particular opinion piece cited in the op wasn't questioning the final decision of the court and so bringing up everything about the particulars of religious buildings and cults from the decision is not relevant to the points made about the expressed opinions of the majority. The concern that the author had had was that expression of wrong things may have an impact to other groups who then decide they too can play the religion card to a religion-biased court that doesn't understand the science or that others who make policies will be impacted by the words of the court majority's opining.
 
It means that there hasn't been a significant amount of time to have things in black and white regarding the extent of needed protocols to allow larger gatherings while not leading to outbreaks.
Huh? We already know the extent of needed protocols to allow larger gatherings while not leading to outbreaks at the litigants' facilities is less severe than Cuomo's ass-number. Those churches and that synagogue had already been following the state's earlier protocols, and the state stipulated as much, and they didn't have outbreaks.

So, you don't need to be "scientific" in order for judges rejecting your authority to be proof they're "scientifically illiterate"?
They are scientifically illiterate for failing even providing an analogy.
You're scientifically illiterate for failing even to provide a coherent argument.

The Court's decision amounts to "If you want to infringe Americans' constitutional rights, you need a better reason than 'Here's a number I pulled out of my ass.'".
With a novel virus, we are stuck with best educated guesses and conservative policies.
Cuomo didn't produce any evidence supporting his ass-number, so the Court was unimpressed. On what grounds do you claim his ass-number was a "best educated guess"? What makes it better, or more educated, than the different educated guesses the SCOTUS already upheld?

This is where a court should not be second guessing health experts.
Andrew Cuomo is not a health expert. Can you quote a health expert saying 10 people is the maximum safe limit regardless of facility size?

Courts typically try not to meddle in local affairs.
Oh for the love of god! What country do you think you live in? This is the Supreme Court. They meddle in local affairs constantly. They've meddled in local affairs just to prove they can!

Large indoor gatherings have been limited. This includes churches. SCOTUS is wrong to say that policy was put forth to "single out houses of worship for especially harsh treatment".
SCOTUS is wrong, based on what evidence?

"And the Governor has stated that factories and schools have contributed to the spread of COVID–19, id., Exh. H, at 3; App. to Application in No. 20A90, pp. 98, 100, but they are treated less harshly than the Diocese’s churches and Agudath Israel’s synagogues, which have admirable safety records."​
 
Huh? We already know the extent of needed protocols to allow larger gatherings while not leading to outbreaks at the litigants' facilities is less severe than Cuomo's ass-number. Those churches and that synagogue had already been following the state's earlier protocols, and the state stipulated as much, and they didn't have outbreaks.

And how do we know they didn't have outbreaks? Don't look, don't find.

Large indoor gatherings have been limited. This includes churches. SCOTUS is wrong to say that policy was put forth to "single out houses of worship for especially harsh treatment".
SCOTUS is wrong, based on what evidence?

Do you have any evidence that churches were treated any different than other indoor gatherings?

"And the Governor has stated that factories and schools have contributed to the spread of COVID–19, id., Exh. H, at 3; App. to Application in No. 20A90, pp. 98, 100, but they are treated less harshly than the Diocese’s churches and Agudath Israel’s synagogues, which have admirable safety records."​

Schools are far more essential than entertainment.
 
SCOTUS is wrong, based on what evidence?

"And the Governor has stated that factories and schools have contributed to the spread of COVID–19, id., Exh. H, at 3; App. to Application in No. 20A90, pp. 98, 100, but they are treated less harshly than the Diocese’s churches and Agudath Israel’s synagogues, which have admirable safety records."​

Does this ruling apply only to the Diocese’s churches and Agudath Israel’s synagogues?
 
SCOTUS is wrong, based on what evidence?

"And the Governor has stated that factories and schools have contributed to the spread of COVID–19, id., Exh. H, at 3; App. to Application in No. 20A90, pp. 98, 100, but they are treated less harshly than the Diocese’s churches and Agudath Israel’s synagogues, which have admirable safety records."​

Does this ruling apply only to the Diocese’s churches and Agudath Israel’s synagogues?

Right. It's not even about those places in New York as the article author makes clear and I quoted in the op:
article author said:
The immediate effect on New York City is moot because the state had already lifted the particular orders under review. The grave, imminent danger lies in the rest of the country, where public health authorities will feel hamstrung to restrict religious gatherings even when the virus is spreading out of control.

In other words, this is about the impact that the words of the majority will have on authorities making policies and the dynamic of their interactions with religious groups.

This thread is not intended to be the other thread. It's about the article and the specific things being said and why they are a bad idea for the Court to express.
 
And how do we know they didn't have outbreaks? Don't look, don't find.
It was so stipulated by the district court. Presumably it looked; it's the district court's job to decide questions of fact. The SCOTUS is an appellate court; it's there to make sure questions of law are decided correctly.

SCOTUS is wrong, based on what evidence?

Do you have any evidence that churches were treated any different than other indoor gatherings?

"And the Governor has stated that factories and schools have contributed to the spread of COVID–19, id., Exh. H, at 3; App. to Application in No. 20A90, pp. 98, 100, but they are treated less harshly than the Diocese’s churches and Agudath Israel’s synagogues, which have admirable safety records."​

Schools are far more essential than entertainment.
Churches are in the Constitution; schools aren't; people's opinions about what's more essential aren't. The legal precedents are clear: if you want to stop people going to church your restriction has to be "narrowly tailored". The restrictions the SCOTUS upheld earlier were more narrowly tailored than Cuomo's.

Why the heck would we expect or want the command of a public official to be above the law?
 
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