Taking away Kim Yong Un's toys

[Treedbear]

How about if the world's leaders get together and offer complete amnesty and even significant guarantees of a safe and comfortable life to the top military leaders and their families if they stage a coup? The first thing that would happen is that Kim would start executing everyone who looked sideways at him.

I think we already have that. It's pretty universal. Following a revolution the new leaders need people who know how to run a country. So what usually happens in a revolution is that the educated elites near the top of the power pyramid stays. A revolution acts as a cheese slice only removing the top most layer of the power structure.

That's why there's a huge difference between communist revolutions that removed everybody educated and those that kept things as they were. The first kind inevitably triggered immediate mass starvation.

It was one of the things many reacted to after the fall of the Nazi government. Nearly all the top Nazis kept their jobs and prestige. Only a handful were removed, tried and punished. But it worked. If the occupiers hadn't done that it would have turned into utter chaos.

No, no. I'm talking about an explicit campaign, advertised publicly as policy intended to induce an internal coup and providing whatever incentive it takes to make it worth the risk. If Kim's regime is so brutal then the leaders would be living in fear of being brought before an international war crimes tribunal. I would think it's standard propaganda among the elite. The point is that making it an explicit policy would require that it gets addressed by the regime and make it relevant issue within the hierarchy. How many billions of dollars in payments would it take to persuade a general?

 

[DrZoidberg]

I believe in Enlightenment values.
I think all humans have the same basic needs.
If we accept that then we do have the right to decide what another country needs.
zip

I believe in Enlightenment values.
So do I
I think all humans have the same basic needs.
So do I
If we accept that, then we do have the right to decide what another country needs.
Non sequitur.

A worn out sophism that justified the invasion and destruction of many countries in order
- to bring the real god
- to bring civilization
- to end oppression
- to bring democracy
etc

It always turned out that the only reason was to serve the interests of the invader.
Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan are the three latest ones where the vast majority of people were way better of before than after the invasion. Except obviously for a small minority that became filthy rich from the exploitation of their own people.

Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan were countries where the ruling group kept the people divided and weak. In order to make them easier to control. You know, like the colonial rulers acted. It was wrong when the imperialists did it. And it's wrong when the countries presidents do it. Exploitation of people is always wrong. No matter who does it.

I'm not a nationalist. I don't believe that national and ethnic self rule is more important than basic human rights.

 

[DrZoidberg]

How about if the world's leaders get together and offer complete amnesty and even significant guarantees of a safe and comfortable life to the top military leaders and their families if they stage a coup? The first thing that would happen is that Kim would start executing everyone who looked sideways at him.

I think we already have that. It's pretty universal. Following a revolution the new leaders need people who know how to run a country. So what usually happens in a revolution is that the educated elites near the top of the power pyramid stays. A revolution acts as a cheese slice only removing the top most layer of the power structure.

That's why there's a huge difference between communist revolutions that removed everybody educated and those that kept things as they were. The first kind inevitably triggered immediate mass starvation.

It was one of the things many reacted to after the fall of the Nazi government. Nearly all the top Nazis kept their jobs and prestige. Only a handful were removed, tried and punished. But it worked. If the occupiers hadn't done that it would have turned into utter chaos.

No, no. I'm talking about an explicit campaign, advertised publicly as policy intended to induce an internal coup and providing whatever incentive it takes to make it worth the risk. If Kim's regime is so brutal then the leaders would be living in fear of being brought before an international war crimes tribunal. I would think it's standard propaganda among the elite. The point is that making it an explicit policy would require that it gets addressed by the regime and make it relevant issue within the hierarchy. How many billions of dollars in payments would it take to persuade a general?

North Korea has no communication channels in or out of the country. You can't bribe anybody you can't talk to. North Korea takes their diplomats families hostage and threaten their lives to keep them loyal. North Korea is a shit show.

 

[Treedbear]

No, no. I'm talking about an explicit campaign, advertised publicly as policy intended to induce an internal coup and providing whatever incentive it takes to make it worth the risk. If Kim's regime is so brutal then the leaders would be living in fear of being brought before an international war crimes tribunal. I would think it's standard propaganda among the elite. The point is that making it an explicit policy would require that it gets addressed by the regime and make it relevant issue within the hierarchy. How many billions of dollars in payments would it take to persuade a general?

North Korea has no communication channels in or out of the country. You can't bribe anybody you can't talk to. North Korea takes their diplomats families hostage and threaten their lives to keep them loyal. North Korea is a shit show.

I would imagine that any country that is so corrupt and self-serving is riddled with covert operations and secrecy. I'm suggesting the best way to undermine the regime is to increase the level of distrust by which Kim holds power. Eventually it will crack. Better than anything we've done so far. You say you'd like to see the world lean on North Korea. Maybe invade them or have someone assassinate him. That's sounds reckless and impractical. If we want to avoid a massive retaliation and the loss of 100's of thousands of lives it has to have the cooperation of the North Korean military.

 

[DrZoidberg]

No, no. I'm talking about an explicit campaign, advertised publicly as policy intended to induce an internal coup and providing whatever incentive it takes to make it worth the risk. If Kim's regime is so brutal then the leaders would be living in fear of being brought before an international war crimes tribunal. I would think it's standard propaganda among the elite. The point is that making it an explicit policy would require that it gets addressed by the regime and make it relevant issue within the hierarchy. How many billions of dollars in payments would it take to persuade a general?

North Korea has no communication channels in or out of the country. You can't bribe anybody you can't talk to. North Korea takes their diplomats families hostage and threaten their lives to keep them loyal. North Korea is a shit show.

I would imagine that any country that is so corrupt and self-serving is riddled with covert operations and secrecy. I'm suggesting the best way to undermine the regime is to increase the level of distrust by which Kim holds power. Eventually it will crack. Better than anything we've done so far. You say you'd like to see the world lean on North Korea. Maybe invade them or have someone assassinate him. That's sounds reckless and impractical. If we want to avoid a massive retaliation and the loss of 100's of thousands of lives it has to have the cooperation of the North Korean military.

North Korea is as insular as Cambodia was under the Khmer Rouge.

It is corrupt. But a corruption designed from the top. There are informants on every level. There's no way for a North Korean to know whether contact is made by someone genuine or an agent.

Its a society of perpetual fear and total control. Information technology of any kind is illegal by non government agents

 

[Treedbear]

I would imagine that any country that is so corrupt and self-serving is riddled with covert operations and secrecy. I'm suggesting the best way to undermine the regime is to increase the level of distrust by which Kim holds power. Eventually it will crack. Better than anything we've done so far. You say you'd like to see the world lean on North Korea. Maybe invade them or have someone assassinate him. That's sounds reckless and impractical. If we want to avoid a massive retaliation and the loss of 100's of thousands of lives it has to have the cooperation of the North Korean military.

North Korea is as insular as Cambodia was under the Khmer Rouge.

It is corrupt. But a corruption designed from the top. There are informants on every level. There's no way for a North Korean to know whether contact is made by someone genuine or an agent.

Its a society of perpetual fear and total control. Information technology of any kind is illegal by non government agents

Nevertheless, the North Koreans are not machines. They have human weaknesses and failings. Especially in a highly repressed society. People, especially people in power, develop socially unacceptable practices that they will try to hide and need secret alliances to protect. Networks develop that rely on mutual distrust. Think of organized crime. Think of the US congress. Fear of punishment is something people learn to live with. It's a very unstable situation when everyone has a gun to everyone else's head.