Texas government now actively terrorizing families of trans kids

[Rhea]

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…

Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.

I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…

Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.

I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…

Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.

I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.

I respectfully disagree. I deny that full HRT ought to be seen only as a "last resort" to save a person's life. I believe that the motive of overall improving someone's quality of life is more than adequate.

Visible self-injury is only one kind of self-injurious behavior. The internal experience of dissociating in order to avoid dealing with intolerable conditions is just as harmful, in the long-run.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

@Rhea Many people here have the mistaken impression that the care given to transgender youth is one-size-fits all. Puberty-blockers are not always adequate, and I think it would be reckless and irresponsible to insist on visible self-injury as the only possible justification in moving beyond it. That is like sending a message to kids, "if you want to start HRT, you have to earn it by cutting yourself." That is monstrous, but that is the message you would send.

The AAP actually states openly that there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

https://publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/19021/AAP-continues-to-support-care-of-transgender

And maybe you do not remember being a kid very well. I do. Lagging grades are usually a sign of a stressed-out student.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Funny, I actually had the experience of my own father attempting to brainwash me into being cis-male, and all that really did was make me into a transgender girl that knew how to skin a deer, roll herself back upright after taking a tumble on a dirt-bike, aim down a rifle sight and pull the trigger on the exhale, cut a fishing hook out of a fish, and skin and fillet the fish after getting it home.

Hah, you want to know something crazy? I am a transgender woman that came from a profoundly unsupportive conservative evangelical household, and I grew up in a household full of guns, hunting knives, and one World War II military katana. Somehow, I made it to adulthood without attempting to kill myself even once.

I'm not sure what makes some of us resistant.

I have a guess. I think that recognizing that most people are full of shit helped.

The issue is about family or social pressure on children to make irreversible life decisions before maturity. Just because a girl plays with trucks doesn't mean she's was born in the wrong body. It's just so curious that there's this rush to get kids cut up and on hormones before age 18.

Meanwhile, in the real world, girls who play with trucks aren’t being forced to become boys across the globe.

And children aren’t being rushed to change genders by the hundreds of thousands. It is so easy to simplify this into a nonsensical fantasy land, but if we are to discuss protecting children and their rights, it’d be best to stick with reality.

That’d include not being restricted to reddit and Twitter for sources. This is a highly complicated and emerging (social wise) issue. Not some binary, drop your kid off at he gender clinic Q-Anon conspiracy.

 

[Playball40]

Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.

It’s outrageous that these ideologues think the de facto solution to adolescent angst is always, always “we will start the transition now, don’t tell your parents”.

This is such absolute BULLSHIT clearly from someone who has never lived or had a TG child.

 

[Playball40]

The issue is about family or social pressure on children to make irreversible life decisions before maturity. Just because a girl plays with trucks doesn't mean she's was born in the wrong body. It's just so curious that there's this rush to get kids cut up and on hormones before age 18.

Puberty blockers are not irreversible. Living as the other gender is not irreversible. That's all most people want for the under 18 crowd.

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

Actually for our family, it took many years of pediatricians, general practitioners, psychologists and psychiatrists and child endocrinologists (and 16 years old) before my son could get gender affirming HRT. People trying to claim that it's being prescribed willy nilly has never lived it. And unfortunately, like most things the radical right get their hands on, this will force people to the illegal market with no medical oversight or even worse a huge uptick in teen suicide.

 

[Playball40]

@Rhea Many people here have the mistaken impression that the care given to transgender youth is one-size-fits all. Puberty-blockers are not always adequate, and I think it would be reckless and irresponsible to insist on visible self-injury as the only possible justification in moving beyond it. That is like sending a message to kids, "if you want to start HRT, you have to earn it by cutting yourself." That is monstrous, but that is the message you would send.

The AAP actually states openly that there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

https://publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/19021/AAP-continues-to-support-care-of-transgender

And maybe you do not remember being a kid very well. I do. Lagging grades are usually a sign of a stressed-out student.

My baby's body is scarred beyond repair from cutting. People simply do not understand. I'm so thankful that RIGHT NOW my son is safe - but if Alabama's law hits FL, he won't be.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Reminds me of Terri Schiavo, and the lies about the husband and the judge. Accusations mean more than truth to the alt-right.

They have no idea how much they have radicalized.

 

[Playball40]

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…

Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.

I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.

Doctors do not perform gender affirming surgeries on minors anymore than doctors perform "third trimester" abortions.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

The issue is about family or social pressure on children to make irreversible life decisions before maturity. Just because a girl plays with trucks doesn't mean she's was born in the wrong body. It's just so curious that there's this rush to get kids cut up and on hormones before age 18.

Puberty blockers are not irreversible. Living as the other gender is not irreversible. That's all most people want for the under 18 crowd.

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

Actually for our family, it took many years of pediatricians, general practitioners, psychologists and psychiatrists and child endocrinologists (and 16 years old) before my son could get gender affirming HRT. People trying to claim that it's being prescribed willy nilly has never lived it. And unfortunately, like most things the radical right get their hands on, this will force people to the illegal market with no medical oversight or even worse a huge uptick in teen suicide.

Thank you for stepping in as someone that has direct experience. You are probably better equipped to inform @Rhea on this. I do understand enough that what you have said sounds close enough to the picture I had.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…

Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.

I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.

Doctors do not perform gender affirming surgeries on minors anymore than doctors perform "third trimester" abortions.

Yep. Rare, special circumstances, "if you had been there, you would understand." Even I would feel weird about doing surgery on a kid, but if a doctor did recommend it, I would be more inclined than otherwise to think there was good reason.

 

[Playball40]

Reminds me of Terri Schiavo, and the lies about the husband and the judge. Accusations mean more than truth to the alt-right.

They have no idea much they have radicalized.

I knew Michael Schiavo and you are correct. It was awful. Also, lost in the whole Terri Schiavo saga is the fact that she ended up in that situation from a horrible and often fatal EATING DISORDER (bulimia). I always wished there was more focus on that fact.

 

[Playball40]

The existence of detransitioners is reason enough to avoid irreversible procedures on the young.

Nonsense.

And BTW, not only were we (parents) told of ALL potential side effects (some permanent, some not), but so was my SON.

I know people that regretted having an abortion. This is absolutely NOT A REASON to make it illegal for everyone else.

If there is ANY medical "procedure" that SHOULD be considered harmful and illegal, it's LAP BAND and other "Weight Loss" surgery. THAT really IS deadly.

 

[Playball40]

Shot.

Angelina Jolie: Shiloh "Wants to Be a Boy" | Us Weekly

"We had to cut her hair," she tells Vanity Fair. "She thinks she's one of the brothers"

www.usmagazine.com

The Salt star, 35, admits she dresses Shiloh, 4, "like a little dude. Shiloh, we feel, has Montenegro style. It's how people dress there. She likes tracksuits, she likes [regular] suits. She likes to dress like a boy. She wants to be a boy. So we had to cut her hair. She likes to wear boys' everything. She thinks she's one of the brothers."

Chaser.

She got lucky. If she had been born a few years later she'd have had mutilation surgery and been pumped with Mengele drugs.

OH bologne. There is nothing wrong with allowing young children to dress how they want. Sheesh. I wore overalls my entire childhood while my SON wore dresses. But I'm not TG and my son is. Go figure.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…

Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.

I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.

The issue is that the grades ARE a form of self-harm. Or a piece of the total of self-harm.

Having some thing that is slowly corrupting you from the inside out into something else, and people treating you trash because the self you are becoming is some thing outside of their understanding leads to significant harm, and not just as relates algebra.

Failing algebra is just a sign that "something major is happening, pay the fuck attention".

The result is that in some ways, folks so affected start to give up on certain things socially.

I generally wouldn't recommend anything to do with GRS or un/installing breasts to much of anyone who I didn't watch grow up through the verge of puberty expressing how much they hated their penis, and who only once at that age asks several disturbing questions about how cows are castrated and then changes the subject of you ever try to bring it up again, but not in a nervous way, but a calculating one.

The grades thing is more a herald of overall shutdown, a withdrawal, and a single symptom of a much larger pattern of self-harm.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…

Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.

I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.

The issue is that the grades ARE a form of self-harm. Or a piece of the total of self-harm.

Having some thing that is slowly corrupting you from the inside out into something else, and people treating you trash because the self you are becoming is some thing outside of their understanding leads to significant harm, and not just as relates algebra.

Failing algebra is just a sign that "something major is happening, pay the fuck attention".

The result is that in some ways, folks so affected start to give up on certain things socially.

I generally wouldn't recommend anything to do with GRS or un/installing breasts to much of anyone who I didn't watch grow up through the verge of puberty expressing how much they hated their penis, and who only once at that age asks several disturbing questions about how cows are castrated and then changes the subject of you ever try to bring it up again, but not in a nervous way, but a calculating one.

The grades thing is more a herald of overall shutdown, a withdrawal, and a single symptom of a much larger pattern of self-harm.

In my case, I put my nose into a book, never talked to anybody, and made "leave me alone!" my single favorite expression. One time, bullying by other students drove me to such a paranoid break that I was literally having visual hallucinations.

I never hurt myself because my head was spacious and had places to hide. The walls muted my senses to where I barely noticed color. The shutdown really might have saved my life, but I resent the fact that I needed it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…

Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.

I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.

The issue is that the grades ARE a form of self-harm. Or a piece of the total of self-harm.

Having some thing that is slowly corrupting you from the inside out into something else, and people treating you trash because the self you are becoming is some thing outside of their understanding leads to significant harm, and not just as relates algebra.

Failing algebra is just a sign that "something major is happening, pay the fuck attention".

The result is that in some ways, folks so affected start to give up on certain things socially.

I generally wouldn't recommend anything to do with GRS or un/installing breasts to much of anyone who I didn't watch grow up through the verge of puberty expressing how much they hated their penis, and who only once at that age asks several disturbing questions about how cows are castrated and then changes the subject of you ever try to bring it up again, but not in a nervous way, but a calculating one.

The grades thing is more a herald of overall shutdown, a withdrawal, and a single symptom of a much larger pattern of self-harm.

This is why we need experts involved in these situations that are intimately aware of the patient, family, environment. And a lot less lies from a bunch of people with absolutely no skin in the game.

I also find interest in the legalized and often unquestioned sexual mutilation of baby boys, among those who think the idea of gender transformation being obviously morally wrong.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…

Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.

I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.

The issue is that the grades ARE a form of self-harm. Or a piece of the total of self-harm.

Having some thing that is slowly corrupting you from the inside out into something else, and people treating you trash because the self you are becoming is some thing outside of their understanding leads to significant harm, and not just as relates algebra.

Failing algebra is just a sign that "something major is happening, pay the fuck attention".

The result is that in some ways, folks so affected start to give up on certain things socially.

I generally wouldn't recommend anything to do with GRS or un/installing breasts to much of anyone who I didn't watch grow up through the verge of puberty expressing how much they hated their penis, and who only once at that age asks several disturbing questions about how cows are castrated and then changes the subject of you ever try to bring it up again, but not in a nervous way, but a calculating one.

The grades thing is more a herald of overall shutdown, a withdrawal, and a single symptom of a much larger pattern of self-harm.

This is why we need experts involved in these situations that are intimately aware of the patient, family, environment. And a lot less lies from a bunch of people with absolutely no skin in the game.

I also find interest in the legalized and often unquestioned sexual mutilation of baby boys, among those who think the idea of gender transformation being obviously morally wrong.

Exactly right!

But they do have skin in the game, I expect, and the skin they have is the fact that they lost the game before we managed to change the rules so they could have won it.

It can be bitter having lost something because "rules" and then see the rules change. It's a fallacious thought form, to be sure, associated with perhaps the natural bitterness over the general unfairness of rule changes?

But I can also see why being leveraged down some path of personality and development and self might trigger both an acceptance of the natural evil, and a deep seated resentment against any threat to the model of justification used to reach that acceptance (that nobody gets to choose).

Accepting "I could have CHOSEN?!?" Would rip open the wound. Wounds only healed through deep existential unravelling and re-weaving are not easily or lightly opened, and humans have what may be a justifiable resistance to such, because function is severely degraded when such existential wounds and rework are recent or in progress.

Edit: contrast this to the other path that the acceptance can take: I could not choose for myself so I will see to it others do get choices denied me.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…

Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.

I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.

The issue is that the grades ARE a form of self-harm. Or a piece of the total of self-harm.

Having some thing that is slowly corrupting you from the inside out into something else, and people treating you trash because the self you are becoming is some thing outside of their understanding leads to significant harm, and not just as relates algebra.

Failing algebra is just a sign that "something major is happening, pay the fuck attention".

The result is that in some ways, folks so affected start to give up on certain things socially.

I generally wouldn't recommend anything to do with GRS or un/installing breasts to much of anyone who I didn't watch grow up through the verge of puberty expressing how much they hated their penis, and who only once at that age asks several disturbing questions about how cows are castrated and then changes the subject of you ever try to bring it up again, but not in a nervous way, but a calculating one.

The grades thing is more a herald of overall shutdown, a withdrawal, and a single symptom of a much larger pattern of self-harm.

This is why we need experts involved in these situations that are intimately aware of the patient, family, environment. And a lot less lies from a bunch of people with absolutely no skin in the game.

I also find interest in the legalized and often unquestioned sexual mutilation of baby boys, among those who think the idea of gender transformation being obviously morally wrong.

Exactly right!

But they do have skin in the game, I expect, and the skin they have is the fact that they lost the game before we managed to change the rules so they could have won it.

It can be bitter having lost something because "rules" and then see the rules change. It's a fallacious thought form, to be sure, associated with perhaps the natural bitterness over the general unfairness of rule changes?

But I can also see why being leveraged down some path of personality and development and self might trigger both an acceptance of the natural evil, and a deep seated resentment against any threat to the model of justification used to reach that acceptance (that nobody gets to choose).

Accepting "I could have CHOSEN?!?" Would rip open the wound. Wounds only healed through deep existential unravelling and re-weaving are not easily or lightly opened, and humans have what may be a justifiable resistance to such, because function is severely degraded when such existential wounds and rework are recent or in progress.

Edit: contrast this to the other path that the acceptance can take: I could not choose for myself so I will see to it others do get choices denied me.

What happened to me made me a demented monster. Not only would I never wish that indignity upon others, but I would rather that person got help for the sake of world peace. I was lucky enough that my puberty did little to permanently masculinize me. I am a little tall, but some cis-women tell me they are a little jealous, which makes me feel better.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Federal judge strikes down Tennessee's transgender bathroom sign law

"Transgender Tennesseans are real. The businesses and establishments that wish to welcome them are real," District Judge Aleta A. Trauger wrote.

www.nbcnews.com

Here is another example of how the GOP really does not give a shit about anyone's liberty.

The government of Tennessee, which is currently "whatever lately crawled out of Donald Trump's Asshole," passed a law that would have forced businesses to post "warnings" if they had a policy allowing transgender people to use their bathrooms in accordance with their gender identity. This law would have imposed a demand on PRIVATE BUSINESSES, and it would have penalized them for just behaving respectfully toward some of their patrons.

The law was a reaction to a large, widespread fad, among hospitality services, of posting signs on their doors that designate their bathrooms as "all gender." It is becoming very common, especially at small family-owned restaurants and bars where the bathrooms are primarily single-occupancy. If you go into most major cities, you find this trend represented at the majority of trendy hangouts in the area.

Well, Tennessee's government was trying to interfere in how those people do business by forcing them to post "warnings," even though it is hard to NOT know that transgender people are there if the doors already have signs saying "all-gender restroom."

It's pure intimidation.

More intimidation:

Schools should not withhold students' gender identity from parents, Texas attorney general says

Ken Paxton issued an opinion Tuesday after a request from Texas Rep. Briscoe Cain.

www.kvue.com

The Texas GOP is now also trying to force teachers to expose their students to potential domestic violence.

As a transgender woman that grew up in the 1980's and 1990's (I have the wrinkles to prove it), I remember my school being a relatively safe environment, compared with the so-called home that I lived in. That is "safer" in the sense of "the only violence I had to worry about was that occasionally I tripped on some jerk's shoe-laces completely by accident, and he would either split my lip or slam my head against a cinder block wall hard enough to leave my ears ringing because transphobes only need a very dubious pretext to express their feelings through violence." That was my idea of a "safe place" when I was a kid.

You know what my environment at home was like? There were times that I literally had to physically defend myself from my own parents during their drunken rages, and the only saving grace was that they were so unbelievably drunk that they backed off after getting kicked violently in the head. If I had been outed as queer or transgender to those maniacs, I could have been in serious danger. They were not just evangelical Christians, but one of them had a family history of a type of alcoholism that was associated with violence. The other one had a brain tumor that had wrapped itself around part of his frontal lobe. If those lunatics had formed the perception that I was some kind of a monster or something, which is what they would have thought if they had gotten wind that I was transgender, then they might have literally killed me.

The same maniacs also declared me to be "demon-possessed" and reacted with extreme violence when they found out that I was uncertain about the authenticity of certain Old Testament stories and said that it might be more useful to interpret them allegorically.

So I am calling on the fucking so-called "libertarians" (bullshit) to tell me how much they need the GOP to defend their "freedom" to talk shit about transgender people, and I am going to watch them smile and nod like bobble-head clowns when the GOP are suppressing the freedom of speech of people that support transgender people. The only "freedom" some of the cretins that currently call themselves "libertarian" really care about is their freedom to make some people's lives so unbearable that they kill themselves. Watch how silent those cretins are when it's the friends and families of transgender people that are being silenced. Haven't you noticed how none of those cretins are here? None of those people that were so hot about their "freedom of speech" are speaking up, here, about the freedom of speech of people that do NOT hate transgender people.

THEY HAVE BEEN LYING TO YOU ABOUT THEIR PRINCIPLES. THEY DO NOT REALLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT LIBERTY, AFTER ALL. THEY ARE JUST JERKS.