The American Racism Split

[Davka]

We appear to have dug up a stinking, fetid mass of putrid anger over the past 6 months, starting with the protests in Ferguson and continuing via both professional and mainstream media. These events - a string of black males dead at the hands of police, and the resulting nationwide protests against police brutality - have exposed a rift in America that has remained mostly hidden over the past few decades.

On one side of the rift are those who believe that racism is still a serious problem in America, and one which needs to be addressed.

On the other side are those who believe that the only race-related problem in America is that some minorities would rather complain and play the "race card" than change their situation.

Both sides are entrenched. There seems to be no way forward. Compromise is unlikely, if not impossible.

So.

Now what?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

This rift has been hidden in your country? Arent you the one that had slavery and that now has racist school admissions? Are you not the nation that had that Rodney King, Martin Luther King, and no blacks served at Burger King?

I am pretty sure you have always had a race focus and problem.

 

[Rhea]

Somebody said in another thread that police weren't acting in racist ways, they were just not using good policies and procedures.

So what policy or procedure could be set up to correct the uneven number of stops/frisks between black and white in the same circumstances or the uneven arrests between black and white of the same evidence or the uneven sentencing between black and white for the same crime?

Or, what rules are already in place but not being properly used?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The problem is still the same as it was in the late 1940s when Truman tried to get UHC passed. He failed because there were two groups opposed, the AMA and Southern Democrats, the latter of which was afraid they were gonna have to start sharing hospital rooms with darkies. Nothing has changed since, except that those Democratic Racists are now Republican Racists.

 

[laughing dog]

This rift has been hidden in your country? Arent you the one that had slavery and that now has racist school admissions? Are you not the nation that had that Rodney King, Martin Luther King, and no blacks served at Burger King?

I am pretty sure you have always had a race focus and problem.

Race has been an issue and a problem in North America, not just the United States.

 

[laughing dog]

We appear to have dug up a stinking, fetid mass of putrid anger over the past 6 months, starting with the protests in Ferguson and continuing via both professional and mainstream media. These events - a string of black males dead at the hands of police, and the resulting nationwide protests against police brutality - have exposed a rift in America that has remained mostly hidden over the past few decades.

On one side of the rift are those who believe that racism is still a serious problem in America, and one which needs to be addressed.

On the other side are those who believe that the only race-related problem in America is that some minorities would rather complain and play the "race card" than change their situation.

Both sides are entrenched. There seems to be no way forward. Compromise is unlikely, if not impossible.

So.

Now what?

In the USA, we will muddle on. I hope the prevalent irrational fear in the USA and of just about everything and the consequent degradation of the value of a human life starts to recede. Then, I hope that will lead to a bit more humane policing, etc.... However, I don't think that will happen for some time.

 

[Sarpedon]

I think people can be convinced that racism is still a problem. I myself used to think it wasn't.

 

[Davka]

This rift has been hidden in your country? Arent you the one that had slavery and that now has racist school admissions? Are you not the nation that had that Rodney King, Martin Luther King, and no blacks served at Burger King?

I am pretty sure you have always had a race focus and problem.

Yes, but.

Since the Civil Rights movement, and especially going into the 1980s, it has become less and less socially acceptable to be openly racist. Telling a racist joke at a party will not generate laughter, it will lead to stony, embarrassed silence and maybe even an anti-racist rant or two. Use of the "n-word" has become so unacceptable that you won't even hear the actual word "nigger" in conversations about it in the media. Even black correspondents say "n-word" instead. And racist attitudes at work can get you fired.

That's what I meant by "hidden."

- - - Updated - - -

I think people can be convinced that racism is still a problem. I myself used to think it wasn't.

How were you convinced?

 

[Sarpedon]

All the shit that's been happening.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

On the other side are those who believe that the only race-related problem in America is that some minorities would rather complain and play the "race card" than change their situation.

Both sides are entrenched. There seems to be no way forward. Compromise is unlikely, if not impossible.

So.

Now what?

False, you're overstating it.

What most of us are saying is that the current level of racism isn't big enough to be an important issue, not that there's none at all.

- - - Updated - - -

All the shit that's been happening.

So they gripe enough and you think they must have a real case?

 

[Davka]

False, you're overstating it.

What most of us are saying is that the current level of racism isn't big enough to be an important issue, not that there's none at all.

"Not important" is effectively the same as 'nonexistent.' It's not a problem that need be addressed, according to you. Admitting that there are still occasional racist incidents while holding fast to the conviction that it's "not important" amounts to the same apathy and lack of action as complete denial.

All the shit that's been happening.

So they gripe enough and you think they must have a real case?

...and here you demonstrate why you may as well believe that it is nonexistent.

 

[Sarpedon]

"They?" Who is "they?"

And I have my own eyes to see, and ears to hear, thanks.

 

[laughing dog]

"Not important" is effectively the same as 'nonexistent.' It's not a problem that need be addressed, according to you. Admitting that there are still occasional racist incidents while holding fast to the conviction that it's "not important" amounts to the same apathy and lack of action as complete denial.

Naturally the perpetrators and beneficiaries tend to think it is not a big deal but the victims do. And, of course, those very same people are outraged any instance of perceived "reverse racism".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Not important" is effectively the same as 'nonexistent.' It's not a problem that need be addressed, according to you. Admitting that there are still occasional racist incidents while holding fast to the conviction that it's "not important" amounts to the same apathy and lack of action as complete denial.

I'm not even saying there are no incidents that need to be addressed. Rather, that they are isolated problems that don't warrant sweeping fixes. The "fixes" are at this point far worse than the problem they're trying to fix.

All the shit that's been happening.

So they gripe enough and you think they must have a real case?

...and here you demonstrate why you may as well believe that it is nonexistent.

You're missing the point--we've had a couple of big "racist" incidents where the only thing racial about them is a black victim. That's not evidence of a widespread problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Not important" is effectively the same as 'nonexistent.' It's not a problem that need be addressed, according to you. Admitting that there are still occasional racist incidents while holding fast to the conviction that it's "not important" amounts to the same apathy and lack of action as complete denial.

Naturally the perpetrators and beneficiaries tend to think it is not a big deal but the victims do. And, of course, those very same people are outraged any instance of perceived "reverse racism".

I've been on the receiving end a few times--and I still don't think it's that big a deal.

To me there must be appreciable measurable harm, not merely hurt feelings, for it to be a big deal.

The only time I've personally seen discrimination that rose to the level of harm was from affirmative action--looking through a large list of scholarships the high school counselors had I found they were either trivial (<=$100), for someone with the right employer, for someone with the right ancestors, for someone female or for someone non-white. Any one scholarship being thus restricted would be no big deal. Every one of them is a big deal.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Naturally the perpetrators and beneficiaries tend to think it is not a big deal but the victims do. And, of course, those very same people are outraged any instance of perceived "reverse racism".

I've been on the receiving end a few times--and I still don't think it's that big a deal.

To me there must be appreciable measurable harm, not merely hurt feelings, for it to be a big deal.

The only time I've personally seen discrimination that rose to the level of harm was from affirmative action--looking through a large list of scholarships the high school counselors had I found they were either trivial (<=$100), for someone with the right employer, for someone with the right ancestors, for someone female or for someone non-white. Any one scholarship being thus restricted would be no big deal. Every one of them is a big deal.

A collection of $100 or less scholarships is what you consider discrimination and that collection is the only time you have seen discrimination rise to the level of harm??

You have got to be kidding.

 

[Davka]

I'm not even saying there are no incidents that need to be addressed. Rather, that they are isolated problems that don't warrant sweeping fixes. The "fixes" are at this point far worse than the problem they're trying to fix.

I completely understand that.

In fact, yours is probably the predominant view on the other side of the split. Some of us believe racism is still a major problem in America. We point to the fact that African-Americans are earning ~$1 for every ~$17 (iirc) that White Americans earn; that predominately Black pockets of poverty are commonplace across the nation, and a number of other indicators as evidence.

Th other side dismisses this evidence as inconclusive, and believes that racism is not a major problem in America, or even worthy of addressing as a whole. They are convinced that it's merely a string of isolated incidents.

These two views appear to be irreconcilable. I don't think either side will convince the other any time soon, and I don't see any evidence of a desire for compromise.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The best and most convincing stats are the ones that control for other variables, like socioeconomic status. The studies that show hiring bias towards black sounding names or female names especially stand out.

 

[Davka]

The best and most convincing stats are the ones that control for other variables, like socioeconomic status. The studies that show hiring bias towards black sounding names or female names especially stand out.

True.

But it makes me want to scream and tear my hair out that there are so many people who seem to need stats in the first place. It's as if there are people who live in a world so insulated from poverty and bigotry that they honestly don't see it. I have to wonder if they really want to see it.

It's like asking for stats to prove that talking on cell phones while driving is a common occurrence. Do you honestly not see that idiot in front of you, driving erratically and yammering away? I sure as hell do, almost every time I drive into town.

*sigh*

And Homo Sapiens claim to have evolved.

 

[Sarpedon]

Ah yes, the "isolated incidents."

When I say it was the "shit that's been happening," that convinced me there was a problem, it is because they can't seem to be able to be dismissed as "isolated incidents," when the public has finally started to scrutinize them. Seems we are having lots of incidents.

You tell us, how many incidents need to happen before they are no longer isolated?