The Beast Revelation

[pood]

As I said before my reason for participation was understanding Christians who have political power and seek to enact laws based on their religion ad force religion into the public space, like schools..

Out in the world I could care less what you believe and would not seek to dissuade anyone form religious belief.

The old saying goes your right to extend your elbow ends at my nose. Extend your religion to infringer with my rights especially to be non religious and free of religious morality I will then resound.

I will tell you to take your religion and shove it.

From the start Christians have been violent, intolerant, and intrusive. They turned on Jews who spawned their religion.

We see the pope today presuming to dictate to the world as the representative of a god on Earth.

And it is all based on the inconsistent mythical gospels for which there are no source documents.

I agree with all of the above, it’s my thinking too, except for the part about the current pope. Most popes in the modern world, including Leo, don’t presume to dictate anything, but have largely been anodyne figureheads espousing generalities about peace, love, goodwill, etc, and that’s fine. I admire Leo for taking on Trump, the moral degenerate who is actually the one trying to dictate to the world.

 

[steve_bank]

In RCC theology the RCC is the 'one true apostolic Christian religion'. They clam papal authority trcing back to Peter as first bishop of Rome.

The RCC has always been trying to get back into Italian public education and regain direct political power.

Leo has presumed to tell us we should open our borders to all.

To me all ppoes are religious fanatics, hey have to be to get that far.

At the lower levels like many organizations the RCC does good things. But the Vatican and the popes are as corrupt and power hungry as any can be. The Vatican is a politcasl inernational corportion/

 

[Learner]

As I said before my reason for participation was understanding Christians who have political power and seek to enact laws based on their religion ad force religion into the public space, like schools..

With that regard I understand.

I'm not one of those types I'm afraid for that conversation you're looking for... nor are our usual theist friends who have frequented the forum for years, engaging in all sorts of good relationship conversations other than the religious threads. (Although, I'm more engaged in the religious section).

Out in the world I could care less what you believe and would not seek to dissuade anyone form religious belief.

The old saying goes your right to extend your elbow ends at my nose. Extend your religion to infringer with my rights especially to be non religious and free of religious morality I will then resound.

I will tell you to take your religion and shove it.

Fair enough. No argument from me here.

From the start Christians have been violent, intolerant, and intrusive. They turned on Jews who spawned their religion.

I won't go into much detail, but from the beginning...
...the Christians were the persecuted...by Jewish sects. Christians was a Jewish sect!! The two dominant sects that survived after the fall of the temple were the Rabbinical and Nazarene/Christian.

We see the pope today presuming to dictate to the world as the representative of a god on Earth.

As pood highlights, he is quite vocal on Trump.

'Blessed are the peace makers' describes more the pope...but certainly doesn't describe Trump out of the two.

And it is all based on the inconsistent mythical gospels for which there are no source documents.

That's the conversation I can engage you with. You'll have to put up with me for now.

 

[pood]

Leo has presumed to tell us we should open our borders to all.

This is absolutely incorrect.

"No one has said that the United States should have open borders," the Pope continued. "I think every country has the right to determine who enters, how, and when."

What he HAS said is that we should treat all people with dignity, love and respect, and certainly not violently and indiscriminately round up suspected “illegal” aliens (many of them are actually here legally) and deport them to fucking concentration camps. Nor should we separate immigrant children from their parents, another evil strategy of the goon in the White House. And we should recognize that a great many people trying to get into the U.S. are refugees from war and economic strife, and treat them with honor.

For myself, I again quote Krishnamurti:

When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.”​

​

 

[Jarhyn]

I would personally seek to dissuade anyone from religious beliefs which bias people from or otherwise prevent the execution of the effective means to accomplish their stated (and otherwise unstated but broadly compatible) goals.

This is because I wish people to have access to and reasonable confidence in the effectiveness of effective means, and to derive this confidence from the actual mechanisms of the effect, as this is a requirement for the accomplishment of our goals, whatever those goals may be, even for such hands-off goals and individuals as who seek "to struggle in their ignorance to build the means to accomplish their goals without the help of others, so long as those struggles do not frustrate the actions of others towards their own goals unduely.

As such, I will [perhaps too] gladly shout down a Jehovah's Witness or the like standing on a street corner for the falseness of what they do and claim, in preaching focus on 'the bible' and reading tracts and judging people harshly for being gay and building Kingdom Halls/cathedrals and funding Project2025 or whatever rather than feeding the poor, especially when their own book says feed the poor rather than wasting time on displays of religiousity.

As a side note, I decided to read the Gospel of Thomas last night (thankfully it's not a very long Gospel, as a pure Sayings gospel), because I wanted to read what might be a segment of some of the least "corrupted" and also least "strategically curated" sayings that might actually attribute to a historical "Jesus"... And almost everything in it aligns with my own thoughts on how Jesus understood the concepts, particularly the ones that that later were perverted into the doctrine of The Trinity.

 

[steve_bank]

Pood a papal apologist:?

Did not see that coming.

It was said recently Leo was elected because he was American playing to Trump et al. I'd give that some credence.

As of April 2026, Chicago-born Pope Leo XIV
, the first American-born pope, has engaged in a public feud with President Donald Trump
over immigration policies, strongly backing U.S. bishops
who condemned the administration's crackdown. Leo has vowed not to back down or change his stance on these issues.

You will never find a migrant camping on Vatican property.

I think it was during Biden the RCC threatened American politicians with denial of sacraments if they did not vote Vatican polices.

The Vatican is hungry for its old power. With the rise of modern Italy in the 19th century the RCC lost its direct v civil authority.

The RCC by doctrine is incompatible with western liberal rights and freedoms.

All of the above is why I participate on religion.

When I am confronted with religious intrusion I start wit tact and will get pointed if I have to to end it.

 

[pood]

I simply pointed out that this pope has NOT called for open borders. Just the opposite.

He has called for treating all humans with respect. With this I agree.

If anyone calls for fully open borders everywhere, it would be me. I despise national borders and flags, or as Krishnamurti called them, those “colored rags.”

Don’t get any idea that I am someone in thrall of Krishnamurti or regard him as a hero. As he himself said, “truth is a pathless land” and he told everyone not to treat him as anyone special. He was against that sort of thing and so am I.

 

[steve_bank]

I don't think much of popes and the Vatican elite.
distance without actually having to deal wit difficult problem and consequences.


Leo may not have explicitly advocated open borders but has as much said so.

In response to Trump Leo said 'Trump does not understand the gospels'
.

Sounds like Learner and all thet heists who have passed through the forum.

Leo is an indoctrinated Christian with all that implies.

I am sick of deference to popes and Catholic clerics. One thing Trump got right, putting the pope in his palce.

 

[Learner]

I don't think much of popes and the Vatican elite.
distance without actually having to deal wit difficult problem and consequences.

Leo may not have explicitly advocated open borders but has as much said so.

In response to Trump Leo said 'Trump does not understand the gospels'
.

Sounds like Learner and all thet heists who have passed through the forum.

You should invite the 'Theists for Trump' advocates here, which would be quite interesting a conversation/debate like you would find it interesting I'm sure, that's not a 'rerun'.

Leo is an indoctrinated Christian with all that implies.

I am sick of deference to popes and Catholic clerics. One thing Trump got right, putting the pope in his palce.

What thing would you say the pope got right about Trump?

 

[pood]

I don't think much of popes and the Vatican elite.
distance without actually having to deal wit difficult problem and consequences.


Leo may not have explicitly advocated open borders but has as much said so.

No, he actually has not. See his quote above.

In response to Trump Leo said 'Trump does not understand the gospels'
.

Sounds like Learner and all thet heists who have passed through the forum.

Leo is an indoctrinated Christian with all that implies.

I am sick of deference to popes and Catholic clerics. One thing Trump got right, putting the pope in his palce.

Trump is a moral degenerate who has no license to put anyone in their place.

Ethical Christianity is different from literal Christianity. The former does not insist that the stories in the gospels of miracles and a resurrection are literally true, but may find ethical good in the teachings of Christ as attributed to him. I believe Doestoevsky was a Christian atheist.

Of course, not everyone agrees with ethical Christianity, either. Notable dissenters are Nietzsche and Ayn Rand.

 

[Learner]

Ok.
Feelings are a major effect to your life! Almost every moment!

I'm sorry to say, I think you and our think-like-you-do friends on this thread are perhaps..a little shy to admit those feelings... or um.. are in denial.

Now come DBT. from down-under..You must rethink (language use) and realise.... having emotional biases can have quite positive results...It always has a say and is involved with our communities.

For example: how do you feel about poor people being hungry? I believe you would personally want to see this disappear, driven by your emotional feelings towards this, and thus forming your opinionated biases against people who are not willing to help solve these situations who just don't care.

The world cares nothing about what we believe or feel.

The same as above

What do you mean by world?.

The physical world, the cosmos, the sun, moon, earth, geology, plants, animals, etc.

I see.

. The world in that case is neutral to either side of our arguments.

It's not that we don't feel, or that we don't have biases, of course we we do....but the point is that our feelings, biases, preferences, etc, have nothing to do with determining what is true or factual. Where our feelings and biases are as likely as not to prevent us from seeing things as they are, rather than how we would like them to be.

This is where you (plural) fail to understand why we can get a very good representation of people back then.

It' is the reader as the analyst who's reading the emotional state and psyche characteristics of the written characters.. It regards their feelings and biases, loyalty and love, self-sacrifices, etc & etc. Not about me being biased.

A variety of scenarios to look at, like how they relate to other characters through feelings, the stresses of their environments and thoughts of people and surrounding influences or caused reactions due to suffering. violence, and the fear of consequences . As I said before , emotions influence almost every aspects and decisions of our lives.

(it's not solely about revealing expressions of humans that I would rely on as a theist! It is an additional reinforcement, so to speak)

(sorry I keep re-editing on the fly in-between calls)

 

[steve_bank]

The hypocrisy and duplicity exhibited by Christians who 'understand the gospels' abounds.

Last year I watched a show on a forensic accountant brought in by the last pope to improve the financial system in the Vatican.

He was a Catholic with a global reputation as an accountant.

As he got into it he found it was mess. Records kept on scraps of paper.

As he got deeper he ucovered deep pervasive corruption.

Church funds diverted into real estate and bank accounts of high ranking clerics.

When he made an issue if it the pope fired him for exceeding his authority, and ttried to destroy his reputation. All to protect the Vatican. I think he sued.

I seriously dout Leo is any better. You do not rose in the RCC wiot6out playing ball so to speak. It is like a mafia family. Politics, the pope gets elected.

There were past scandals like the Vatican bank in bed with organized crime.

When pressed for transparency the RCC fall back on they obey a higher law than civil law.

The Vatican Bank (Institute for the Works of Religion, IOR) has been embroiled in scandals for decades, involving allegations of laundering money for the Mafia, political elites, and corrupt businessmen. Key scandals involved the 1982 collapse of Banco Ambrosiano—linking the bank to the Mafia and Masonic lodges—and, more recently, convictions of top officials for money laundering, highlighting a long history of utilizing its sovereignty to shield financial dealings.

And the sex abuse scandals. They s themselves above civil law.

So Learner. despite all the hand waving and testifying to god and Jesus, it comes down to a belief in 2000 year old short decrements with no coordination. No source documents and multiple translations with editing.

And the actions of Christians through today. You can justify most anything by interpreting OT and NT.

All claim to know what the scripture 'really m,eans'.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Believers also claim to know a remarkable amount about God's desires, temperament, powers, and inclinations. God wants us to forgive...God desires an intimate relationship with each of us...when we sin we break God's heart...God knows all of the thoughts of all 8.3 billion humans, plus all the newborn sign-ons (four per second)...God wants us to prosper...God demands praise and worship...
Then when there's a tsunami or drought or pandemic -- well, God's ways are inscrutable, how do we dare to...
Add to that systemic disease, meteorites, famine, Alzheimers, childhood cancer, parasitic organisms, Abba's Greatest Hits -- gee whiz, it's almost as if the universe could care less about us, and we've got to use our own human abilities to survive.
In any case, for those who give credence to the Bible as a source of knowledge about "God", he kills between 2.4 and 2.5 million people in his book, or somewhere north of 20 million if you add the Flood, and why not add it. (Satan's kill total: ten. What a wimp.) He is notoriously tribal, and merciless toward those of his creations who somehow formed tribes that rivaled his posse. (Maybe Trump's post where he's at deity level is spot on.)

 

[Jarhyn]

Ok.
Feelings are a major effect to your life! Almost every moment!

I'm sorry to say, I think you and our think-like-you-do friends on this thread are perhaps..a little shy to admit those feelings... or um.. are in denial.

Now come DBT. from down-under..You must rethink (language use) and realise.... having emotional biases can have quite positive results...It always has a say and is involved with our communities.

For example: how do you feel about poor people being hungry? I believe you would personally want to see this disappear, driven by your emotional feelings towards this, and thus forming your opinionated biases against people who are not willing to help solve these situations who just don't care.

The world cares nothing about what we believe or feel.

The same as above

What do you mean by world?.

The physical world, the cosmos, the sun, moon, earth, geology, plants, animals, etc.

I see.

. The world in that case is neutral to either side of our arguments.

It's not that we don't feel, or that we don't have biases, of course we we do....but the point is that our feelings, biases, preferences, etc, have nothing to do with determining what is true or factual. Where our feelings and biases are as likely as not to prevent us from seeing things as they are, rather than how we would like them to be.

This is where you (plural) fail to understand why we can get a very good representation of people back then.

It' is the reader as the analyst who's reading the emotional state and psyche characteristics of the written characters.. It regards their feelings and biases, loyalty and love, self-sacrifices, etc & etc. Not about me being biased.

A variety of scenarios to look at, like how they relate to other characters through feelings, the stresses of their environments and thoughts of people and surrounding influences or caused reactions due to suffering. violence, and the fear of consequences . As I said before , emotions influence almost every aspects and decisions of our lives.

(it's not solely about revealing expressions of humans that I would rely on as a theist! It is an additional reinforcement, so to speak)

(sorry I keep re-editing on the fly in-between calls)

Wow what a fucking mess this post of yours is...

Ok, so, the reader is there as the reader, a mostly detached person.

Part of the benefit of reading a book is that detachment from the character's feelings such that you use your MIND and UNDERSTANDING to make judgements about whether a person's emotional state is justified or biased as the case may be.

Emotions are to be evaluated rather than accepted out of hand. When they are accepted out of hand we call that "uncritical belief" and we reject the products of such processes.

(Simple) Emotions have influence over our lives because we generally lack the time to form more nuanced, complicated, or accurate (complex) emotional responses, or to remodel those emotional responses towards more correct action.

Usually, we can acknowledge that as much as the emotions can get stuff "mostly right", there's a large gap between where they get us and "actually correct".

 

[ideologyhunter]

Does the divorce rate tell us anything about the emotions as a useful steering wheel?

 

[Jarhyn]

I will reiterate some concern insofar as I think Christians have surprisingly and disappointingly little concern or investment in understanding which of their beliefs are about real persons or events vs which are curated by "the cannon".

At some point I asked a question whose lack of good answers from Christianity brought me to reading outside materials to contextualize the Bible: what is it of these other books that caused them to get rejected at the Cannon?

The fact is that there are much more simplistic "sayings" gospels which are prototypical to the current gospels, such as the Coptic Gospel of Thomas, and these contain far fewer claims and far more useful "sayings" than the standard polemic "life and times and sayings" gospel stories that the Cannon seemed to have preference for.

Then, if just the "sayings" of Jesus were looked at, they paint a very clear picture of what the church was supposed to be and what it was supposed to NOT be... And these facts starkly disagree with the direction the church actually went.

The most ironic part is that the Sayings in the CGoT is that they predicted this outcome.