The Book of Mormon

[Trodon]

Has anyone here besides me read The Book of Mormon?

For several years before being proselytized by two Mormon missionaries at the age of 19 I had a copy. I did not read all of it, but it did have a Biblical appearance to it. I thought it might be authentic.

A friend of my father's, who was not a Mormon, told me that many archaeologists took The Book of Mormon seriously.

I made a thorough study of Mormonism. I did so with the idea that the other religions are based on miracles that happened so long ago that they are impossible to prove or disprove. Joseph Smith made assertions which if true can be independently verified.

Well, it turns out that nothing in The Book of Mormon can be independently verified. The Book of Mormon claims to be a detailed history of pre Columbian America from about 500 B.C. to 300 A.D. There is no archaeological evidence that any of the events told in The Book of Mormon happened. There is much evidence that events recorded in The Book of Mormon did not happen.

The Book of Mormon tells about animals that did not live in the New World until Europeans brought them over. It tells about crops that were not grown here until after Columbus.

Biblical archeology has demonstrated that much that is written about in the Bible did happen, although Biblical archeology cannot verify the miracles or the existence of God.

There is no Book of Mormon archeology. Nevertheless, many intelligent and well educated people, like Mitt Romney, seem to take Mormonism seriously. The Mormon church requires members to donate ten percent of their income. People are unlikely to do that unless they really believe Mormon doctrines.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Mark Twain wrote a review:

All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the “elect” have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so “slow,” so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle—keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, accourding to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason.

The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James’s translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel—half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern—which was about every sentence or two—he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as “exceeding sore,” “and it came to pass,” etc., and made things satisfactory again. “And it came to pass” was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.

Funny stuff.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

I tried to read it once, but - despite having been able to get through the OT and all its "begats" - found it too turgid to continue reading. The phrase "chloroform in print" from the Mark Twain review quoted above pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[Perspicuo]

I don't thik I'll ever *read* it, I mean read all of it.

I tried, honestly, and after a few lines I was whatthefuuuuuuuuuck and went to another chapter ("book") and went whatthefuuuuuuuuuck, and so on. What wasn't amazingly idiotic was either a failed attempt of copying the style of the Bible, or both. Mostly both.

 

[Trodon]

Mormon missionaries spend two years on their missions. I wonder how the more intelligent ones can keep their faith. They must run into a few people like me who actually have read The Book of Mormon, The Doctrines and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price and who can point out problems with these.

I actually do like Mormon missionaries. When they knock on my door I invite them in, get my leather bound volume that includes The Book of Mormon, The Doctrines and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price, and we talk. During these conversations I go to some length to avoid sounding condescending. Nevertheless, I do get the feeling that I know more about their religion than they do. After awhile they remember a previous engagement, and excuse themselves.

Most converts to Mormonism are not well educated. Nevertheless, people born into the faith, like Mitt Romney, are frequently intelligent, well educated, and accomplished.

If one is a natural monogamist, and if one has no taste for alcohol and tobacco I can understand the emotional appeal of Mormonism. I wanted to join myself. I tell that to the missionaries. Nevertheless, I would expect someone who is intelligent and well informed to be able to see through the religion.

Once I read someone describing conversion to Mormonism as being similar to buying a Victorian mansion one has long been aware of in one's neighborhood. Initially one is pleased with the home. Finally, one goes into the basement and discovers that the foundations are flimsy.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Most converts to Mormonism are not well educated.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any numbers to support this statement? Or should we just consider it religious disdain?

Nevertheless, people born into the faith, like Mitt Romney, are frequently intelligent, well educated, and accomplished.

I've never been really impressed with Mitt's piety, as much as his opportunism.
And the intelligence of any theist only matters if they bring their intelligence to bear in questioning the tenets, assumptions and evidence of their religion.

It doesn't make Mormon Archaeology credible if everyone that accepts it or even defends it does so because they were taught as children not to question it.

 

[fromderinside]

Just out of curiosity, do you have any numbers to support this statement? Or should we just consider it religious disdain?

Nevertheless, people born into the faith, like Mitt Romney, are frequently intelligent, well educated, and accomplished.

I've never been really impressed with Mitt's piety, as much as his opportunism.
And the intelligence of any theist only matters if they bring their intelligence to bear in questioning the tenets, assumptions and evidence of their religion.

It doesn't make Mormon Archaeology credible if everyone that accepts it or even defends it does so because they were taught as children not to question it.

But, but, but, ..... the book of Mormon stories were just as much fun as the record of "Peter and the Wolf" when I was young. I believe Sasha wasn't killed by the wolf. Don't you? OmMyGod I'm going into a spiritual crisis on this. Please take it back Keith&Co or I'm going to report you because I'm a retired neuro-scientist who obviously is very smart./nomormonnomore

 

[Keith&Co.]

"Fun" was never a word i applied to the BOM growing up. And they made sure that i got the right understanding from every story, so it was actually rather a lot like Peter and the Wolf, now that i think of it. But instead of telling the story, the narrator just hammers the moral of the story home. So 'hamfisted' was a word i would have applied pretty early to the stories....

 

[Philos]

Folks,

Some Mormons came to our house when I was a kid. I ran out the back door. A little later I crept to the front and looked in the window. My Mum and Dad were on their knees.

That was a quickie!

Alex.

PS - Somehow that marked the beginning of losing respect for my parents.

 

[fta]

If one is a natural monogamist, and if one has no taste for alcohol and tobacco I can understand the emotional appeal of Mormonism.

Uh, not all Mormons are monogamous.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I read the entire BOM back in the 90's, for kicks...very obscurist kicks with little paydirt for all the effort. (I'd already read a lot of Jared & Sandra Tanner's works on the LDS and knew how devastating was the case against Joe Smith as a trustworthy individual.) If you get into the spirit of the endeavor, it's interesting to read just because YOU CAN'T BELIEVE THERE'S A FAITHFUL COMMUNITY READING THIS BILGE AS PRECIOUS GOSPEL!!!! It is so patently fraudulent that you lose all respect for the 'spiritual' mindset that accepts any orthodoxy. To the extent that religion blinds one to common sense and the use of one's critical thinking capacities, religion is a pox.
BOM treasures, specifically:
> the many descriptions of military campaigns, written with all the understanding of a lad playing with tin soldiers. In the final apocalyptic battle between (if memory serves) the bad Lamanites and the virtuous Nephites, I believe the Lamanite king sends a written message to the Nephite king that he should bring his troops to the hill Cumorah in present day New York for a showdown. (I think the LDS church today says it is not certain if the battle actually occurred in NY, because it would involve a march of armies from Mesoamerica up to the Great Lakes and really, you can't expect folks to believe THAT, can ya?) In the actual battle, the armies fight day after day, slaughtering each other down to basically zero -- just like it has happened in no other conflict in any century or continent.
> to believe in the BOM as a revelation from god, you have to believe that Native Americans descended from the remnants of a Hebrew civilization that flourished in the New World -- in other words, you have to abandon history altogether. (And those tomahawk circumcisions would have made the story a fantasy, anyway.) The original post has it right -- archaeology disproves Mormonism entirely. The Jews created literate, wordy, contentious, contemplative, disputative cultures wherever they lived, yet Mormons can't show a single Hebrew inscription or coin among the Mayan/Aztec/Toltec etc. ruins that you find in the region. I wonder why.
> what really threw me when I read the BOM, and what I think is the silliest feature of the book, is that Smith imagined not just Jewish worship being carried out in the B.C. centuries in Mesoamerica -- he has the wisest among these Jews starting Anticipatory Christian churches. Yes, did you know that fifteen and more centuries before Columbus, there were churches in the New World where the yet-to-be-born Jesus was prophesied and worshipped by name?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I read the entire BOM back in the 90's, for kicks...very obscurist kicks with little paydirt for all the effort. (I'd already read a lot of Jared & Sandra Tanner's works on the LDS and knew how devastating was the case against Joe Smith as a trustworthy individual.) If you get into the spirit of the endeavor, it's interesting to read just because YOU CAN'T BELIEVE THERE'S A FAITHFUL COMMUNITY READING THIS BILGE AS PRECIOUS GOSPEL!!!! It is so patently fraudulent that you lose all respect for the 'spiritual' mindset that accepts any orthodoxy. To the extent that religion blinds one to common sense and the use of one's critical thinking capacities, religion is a pox.

This stuff isn't going to appeal to people with an intellect and who are curious. It used to be people had to choose between competing religions. Now we have a choice to be non-religious without risking death, at least in civilized domains. Makes a big difference.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

From the Old Forum. How the Book of Mormon came to be

1: There was a man in New York State in those days, And his name was Joseph Smith, a poor fish.

2: And it came to pass that he was sore aweary of working for a living, and desired some scam that he might have it easy.

3: And it came to pass that a primeval fantasy novel came into his paws, and he did say, "Hmm, this giveth me an idea."

4: And it came to pass that a scheme came to him, to start a new religion, and call himself a prophet, and gain much moolah, and bimbos beyond count.

5: He stole the ideas of the fantasy novel, and came up with a farrago of nonsense about magic spectacles, and golden tablets that no-one else had ever seen.

6: And it came to pass that he concocted a ridiculous tale about ancient Jews in the Americas, with foolish names like Nehi (both grape and orange) Ether the soporific, and so on, for he knew no Hebrew.

7: And it came to pass that he brought his Jews to the Americas by magick, and told impossible tales about their deeds, for he knew no more about the actual prehistory of the Americas than a hog knows of Hanukkah.

8: And it came to pass that he wrote it all in a stupid olde-foldey style language cribbed from the King James Bible, for thought he that men talked that way in ancient days, and he knew no language other than English.

9: And added he to his religion a commandment, that men might have as many wives as they wished, and so brought all the horny old men into his fold.

10: And called he it the Book of Moron, and when everyone, even the burros laughed, changed he it to the book of Mormon.

11: And it came to pass that fortune smiled on him for a while, and all the fools followed him, and called they him a profit.

12: And though he was hanged up, and a horny old goat named Brigham replaced him, yet still the Saints called him a profit, yea though his name sounds like an alias.

13: And it came to pass that the Mor(m)ons did exodus to Utah, which no-one else wanted, yeah even a retarded troll would not live there, and called they the land Deseret, which means Land of Idiots in Nostratic.

14: And there bred they Osmonds, unto the end of time.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Long ago, I ran across some obscure University journals in the Rice university library. A number of these from Utah, and nearby states had articles by Mormon professors trying to square the BOM with archaeological debunkings of BOM. Most odd, it made creationism look intellectual by comparison. These sorts of third rate journals tended to be catch-all collections of stuff, But the Mormon apologism junk was so bad I wondered why they accepted trash like this for publication. Low standards? OMG we need more stuff to fill this volume out for publication? Mormon editors? Or just giving the Mormons all the rope they wanted?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Long ago, I ran across some obscure University journals in the Rice university library. A number of these from Utah, and nearby states had articles by Mormon professors trying to square the BOM with archaeological debunkings of BOM. Most odd, it made creationism look intellectual by comparison. These sorts of third rate journals tended to be catch-all collections of stuff, But the Mormon apologism junk was so bad I wondered why they accepted trash like this for publication. Low standards? OMG we need more stuff to fill this volume out for publication? Mormon editors? Or just giving the Mormons all the rope they wanted?

I'd be more inclined to believe that the Mormon Church owned the journal.
They own at least one TV station in SLC wheni was growing up, and the newspaper, and insisted there was no conflict of interest in reporting stories about the Church because 'As members of the Latter Day Saints, we're only really interested in the truth!"

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Long ago, I ran across some obscure University journals in the Rice university library. A number of these from Utah, and nearby states had articles by Mormon professors trying to square the BOM with archaeological debunkings of BOM. Most odd, it made creationism look intellectual by comparison. These sorts of third rate journals tended to be catch-all collections of stuff, But the Mormon apologism junk was so bad I wondered why they accepted trash like this for publication. Low standards? OMG we need more stuff to fill this volume out for publication? Mormon editors? Or just giving the Mormons all the rope they wanted?

I'd be more inclined to believe that the Mormon Church owned the journal.

They own at least one TV station in SLC wheni was growing up, and the newspaper, and insisted there was no conflict of interest in reporting stories about the Church because 'As members of the Latter Day Saints, we're only really interested in the truth!"

These were official journals from universities. These were general type journals and most articles had nothing to do with Mormonism. They weren't scintillating reading by any means. Book reviews and local histories et al. Literature and surveys of literature etc. This odd apologism and replies caught my eye just caught my eye and was the only reason I followed up on them. It was rather polite and amusing.

 

[Trodon]

Just out of curiosity, do you have any numbers to support this statement? Or should we just consider it religious disdain?

Nevertheless, people born into the faith, like Mitt Romney, are frequently intelligent, well educated, and accomplished.

I've never been really impressed with Mitt's piety, as much as his opportunism.
And the intelligence of any theist only matters if they bring their intelligence to bear in questioning the tenets, assumptions and evidence of their religion.

It doesn't make Mormon Archaeology credible if everyone that accepts it or even defends it does so because they were taught as children not to question it.

The 26% of Mormons who are converts to the faith differ markedly from lifelong Mormons in several ways. First, converts tend to be older than lifelong Mormons. Nearly half of converts (48%) are over age 50, compared with about three-in-ten lifelong members (29%). Converts also tend to be less educated than nonconverts (16% did not graduate from high school, compared with just 6% of lifelong members) and they earn decidedly lower incomes (40% make less than $30,000 a year, compared with 21% among nonconverts).
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/07/24/a-portrait-of-mormons-in-the-us/

 

[Trodon]

Folks,

Some Mormons came to our house when I was a kid. I ran out the back door. A little later I crept to the front and looked in the window. My Mum and Dad were on their knees.

That was a quickie!

Alex.

PS - Somehow that marked the beginning of losing respect for my parents.

Did your parents convert to Mormonism, or where they praying for God's guidance?

- - - Updated - - -

If one is a natural monogamist, and if one has no taste for alcohol and tobacco I can understand the emotional appeal of Mormonism.

Uh, not all Mormons are monogamous.

Now the great majority are. What I mean by "naturally monogamous" is having little or no interest in casual sex and sexual variety, and wanting to marry a virgin.