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The Case For Christ - A defence of Lee Strobel's 1998 apologetic book

Jimmy Higgins said:
Learner said:
Indeed. What is the fruit that they should suddenly be ashamed and cover their bodies?
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Because they ate of the knowledge of good and evil. They now knew they were naked. The shame? Well, it was because they were naked... not because they felt bad for eating the fruit.
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The shame is after some sexual encounters - Eve may have had two partners, the first encounter was with Satan and then after, Eve shared the fruit with Adam. Death came into the world because of the tainted flesh, because Cain is the seed of Satan, as the understanding goes. Understandable if this is why "it is appointed for man to die once". And also why it seems to be, that adultery, marriage and all types of sexual obsessions are greatly emphasized in the bible.

To be honest, I was troubled with this idea for example: If Cain and Abel were twins then Abel would also be Satan's seed. However one Christian pointed out it's possible.

Superfecundation

Superfecundation is the fertilization of two or more ova from the same cycle by sperm from separate acts of sexual intercourse, which can lead to twin babies from two separate biological fathers...
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Anyway, this wouldn't matter if Abel was also Satan's son, because of Seth who was Adam's son.

Yes I know, it sounds like a great twist in a movie but there is some logic to it in regards to the theology imo, which is good (at least for the theists) that the studies are continuing.
 
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Learner said:
Yes I know, it sounds like a great twist in a movie but there is some logic to it in regards to the theology imo, which is good (at least for the theists) that the studies are continuing.
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No, it's not a great twist. It's a cop-out.

The whole point of the Fall is to describe man's capacity for sin. The end of the Flood story is that Man's wicked by nature. We care capable of evil, evil is easy, and we need constant vigilance and self-control and divine leadership in order to conquer these urges, this nature, and achieve greatness.

Ascribing all evil to Satan and Satan's influence leaves the whole of humanity a victim in this. We suffer but not for anything in ourselves but what Satan did. Which means anyone who sins is caught in a fight between the two most powerful beings in the universe.

it means every single person in the Bible that God punished, or ordered punished, He actually should have been mad at, and punishing Satan. We're all just someone on meds that hamper our ability to make good decisions, being blasted for actions we were clinically unable to control.
 
Learner said:
The shame is after some sexual encounters - Eve may have had two partners, the first encounter was with Satan and then after, Eve shared the fruit with Adam.
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Ahh... I get it. You are talking about Fan Fiction, not the actual text.

To be honest, I was troubled with this idea for example: If Cain and Abel were twins then Abel would also be Satan's seed. However one Christian pointed out it's possible.
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What was Edge's position?

Yes I know, it sounds like a great twist in a movie...
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It sounds more like something that was completely made up and can't be found in the original narrative. But some people like to dress up as Harry Potter characters, so I guess BibleCon can be a thing too.
 
Keith&Co. said:
Learner said:
Yes I know, it sounds like a great twist in a movie but there is some logic to it in regards to the theology imo, which is good (at least for the theists) that the studies are continuing.
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No, it's not a great twist. It's a cop-out.

The whole point of the Fall is to describe man's capacity for sin. The end of the Flood story is that Man's wicked by nature. We care capable of evil, evil is easy, and we need constant vigilance and self-control and divine leadership in order to conquer these urges, this nature, and achieve greatness.

Ascribing all evil to Satan and Satan's influence leaves the whole of humanity a victim in this.
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This is a notable distinction here. Because any attempt to dump this off on the snake is to mean that man and woman are victims. While it can be argued that man and woman did no wrong in the Narrative, and God is the bad guy (because gods were heels 3000 years ago), man and woman choose to eat the fruit.
 
Has anyone ever really just considered religion as art? Makes the most sense to me. It's unfortunate that people think their art is the best art and try to convert people to like their art and not someone else's. Strange stuff.

This morning I was at a funeral. The building was very pleasant architecture. It was a catholic parish and building but the main altar had no cross or crucifix or dead jesus or live jesus or any jesus. There was a cross on the left side of the front of the building but I had to look to find it. I'll have to ask someone about the symbolism of the huge mural on the front.

No marble and no huge altar but a lot of stylized jesus iconography. None of the gaudy paintings or statuary of saints.

The sermon was about Lazarus. Unfortunately, even a couple thousand years ago people were demonizing other groups. That the gospels contain hate speech against jews should give christians pause but I'm sure it doesn't matter much.

Lots of interactive theater, an organ, and the rituals of the typical catholic service.

But it's all art. All religion is art. People shouldn't kill each other over art, but they do.
 
T.G.G. Moogly said:
Has anyone ever really just considered religion as art? Makes the most sense to me. It's unfortunate that people think their art is the best art and try to convert people to like their art and not someone else's. Strange stuff.

This morning I was at a funeral. The building was very pleasant architecture. It was a catholic parish and building but the main altar had no cross or crucifix or dead jesus or live jesus or any jesus. There was a cross on the left side of the front of the building but I had to look to find it. I'll have to ask someone about the symbolism of the huge mural on the front.

No marble and no huge altar but a lot of stylized jesus iconography. None of the gaudy paintings or statuary of saints.

The sermon was about Lazarus. Unfortunately, even a couple thousand years ago people were demonizing other groups. That the gospels contain hate speech against jews should give christians pause but I'm sure it doesn't matter much.

Lots of interactive theater, an organ, and the rituals of the typical catholic service.

But it's all art. All religion is art. People shouldn't kill each other over art, but they do.
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Fallacy of composition. It's like saying 'the home has plants so the home is plants'.
 
T.G.G. Moogly said:
The sermon was about Lazarus.
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Seems like an odd subject for someone that just died. It sounds like they are rubbing in just how much Jesus doesn't want to bring the loved one back to life, like he did Lazarus.

Father: And Lazarus was dead.
Father: Stone cold dead.
Father: He was so dead!
Father: Then Jesus came. And he said "Don't be dead!"
Father: And then Lazarus wasn't dead anymore.
Father: It was a miracle, and proves how awesome the power of Jesus was.
Father: ...
Father: I mean, that ain't happening today.
Father: Looking out there at the hope in your eyes, I realize I might have been giving the wrong impression.
Father: Your loved one isn't coming back... I mean after all they are in heaven... most likely. Protestants disagree, but that doesn't matter. Not to us. But I'm wandering off topic here.
Father: Let's open to the Bible to Gen 10:4, "The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittites and the Rodanites... Wait, that isn't it...
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
T.G.G. Moogly said:
The sermon was about Lazarus.
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Seems like an odd subject for someone that just died.
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Nah, I've heard it before.
Seems that the Lazarus reaanimation was a trailer for the real production.
"Because right now, just as Lazarus woke up and saw Jesus standing over him, [Uncle Dead Guy] is waking up in Heaven, with Jesus standing over him," eternal life, power of Gawd, etc.
 
I went to my cousin's funeral some time back. The death wasn't expected at all; he was just feeling under the weather in the days before he died. His sister approached the same preacher who'd later deliver the eulogy, and she asked him to pray for her brother. So the two of them prayed together that God would make her brother feel well again.

He died the next day. The preacher's claim was that the prayer worked! Jesus had heard the petition to make the man well, and responded by killing him. And that cured him of life.

I didn't know whether to cry or laugh, or if I should ask the remaining cousin who prayed for his healing to NOT do the same for me. Cuz if that's what 'curing' is, I'd rather stay ill so long as it's not too terribly bad.
 
abaddon said:
He died the next day. The preacher's claim was that the prayer worked! Jesus had heard the petition to make the man well, and responded by killing him. And that cured him of life.
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One wonders what the preacher would have claimed if the brother had made a swift recovery.
 
T.G.G. Moogly said:
steve_bank said:
Given the geopolitics of the day that are documented along with the fact there we a number of people claiming to be the messiah, the odds are good IMO there was an historical flesh and blood Jesus on whom the tales were spun.
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I'm sure there were many people being persecuted and put to death for political and state reasons, that much is certain, but that isn't the claim.

The question is more like whether John Wayne's exploits that spanned all of WW2 from Pearl Harbor to Iwo to D-Day is historically inspired by a singular character. IMO nothing could be further from fact.
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Not just WWII, the image of the 19th century west as well. Mostly fictionalized and mythical. From a PBS show there were a number of fiction writers in the 19th century that created the myth of rugged individual in the west. The John Wayne persona who needs nobody.
 
steve_bank said:
Given the geopolitics of the day that are documented along with the fact there we a number of people claiming to be the messiah, the odds are good IMO there was an historical flesh and blood Jesus on whom the tales were spun.
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Yes, imo that is one reason to think he (or to be precise some delusional fringe Jewish radical later given the name Jesus) more likely than not existed in early 1st C Judea and met an early death at the hands of the Romans.

Beyond that, there's not much we could say, imo. He coulda done all sorts of 'magic tricks'. That was apparently at least not unusual (and still isn't).
 
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