The Causation Argument

[skepticalbip]

Does anyone know what point Lion is trying to make?

It seems that the point is, "anyone who does not accept the Genesis story as absolute truth is an idiot."

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Does anyone know what point Lion is trying to make?

It seems that the point is, "anyone who does not accept the Genesis story as absolute truth is an idiot."

Well, it's not a total loss for me. Now I know that the ice cubes in my freezer - religiously speaking - are "past eternal." I think that's pretty cool. When I have some gin and seltzer I'm not just going to have it over ice, I'm going to have it over "past eternal" ice.

Keith's paper in his printer is also "past eternal." Toilet paper is "past eternal."

Hallelujah, Jesus!

 

[atrib]

Does anyone know what point Lion is trying to make?

I think he is saying that perpetual motion machines cannot exist, but God is a perpetual motion machine. He doesn't say it in so many words, because that would expose the inherent fallacy of his position, but that is the gist of it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Does anyone know what point Lion is trying to make?

I think he is saying that perpetual motion machines cannot exist, but God is a perpetual motion machine. He doesn't say it in so many words, because that would expose the inherent fallacy of his position, but that is the gist of it.

So it's just another religious contradiction. Only invisible, magical perpetual motion machines can be real because there aren't any real "real" ones. Understood.

It's that need for magic. Religious behavior is based on spookiness, ghosts and magic, same as santa belief.

 

[steve_bank]

Perpetual motion as referenced from, thermodynamics apples only to processes in a bounded system, like a car engine or refrigerator.

In a limitless universe no matter or energy can be lost. Only form changes and the observable staes of the unverse are by a tiny point in an ever changing reality.

Interesting how a theist uses science metaphors when talking about god.

The bible does not say what god is. But they believe he, she, or it exists. God becomes whatever they need it to be.

 

[Keith&Co.]

That's a very long-winded way of saying you think the universe has always existed.

Huh. well, more succinct verbiage seemed to fail in conveying the actual idea. But long-winded has apparently failed, too.

Because, Lion, i do NOT think the universe has always existed. You misunderstand me.

I do think that if the creationist is going to point to something inside the universe and say, "There! That is an example of what we can base our understanding of the beginning of the universe on," they shouldn't pick an example that's bass-ackwards to the conclusion they're trying to force.

Everything around us that we can percieve is made of eternal parts, mixein endless diversity, like using Pirates of the Caribbean Legos to build a Ghostbusters adventure in The Haunted Rum Cellar.

Pointing to reconfiguring elements and claiming 'this shows how we understand gawd started everything' just makes you look stupider than when young earthers try to explain sedimentary layers.

 

[Lion IRC]

...i do NOT think the universe has always existed

Great. Looks like we agree on something at last.

So...either it came into existence spontaneously (magic) or was caused.

If caused, then caused by deliberate intent/agency OR a necessary, forced caused (which itself requires a prior explanation ---> infinite regression?)

Was it inevitable that the universe came into existence?

 

[skepticalbip]

Perpetual motion as referenced from, thermodynamics apples only to processes in a bounded system, like a car engine or refrigerator.

In a limitless universe no matter or energy can be lost. Only form changes and the observable staes of the unverse are by a tiny point in an ever changing reality.

Interesting how a theist uses science metaphors when talking about god.

The bible does not say what god is. But they believe he, she, or it exists. God becomes whatever they need it to be.

That's not entirely true. Moses got to see god's arse as god walked away.

 

[Learner]

The matter/energy that stars and planets are made of predates the formation of the stars and planets. Did you really not know that?

I did know but thanks for "stating the obvious."

You are confused as usual, and not making any sense. The pattern that Steve is talking about relates to the emergent behavior of very complex neural networks, like human brains, that gives rise to things like memory. Human brains are made of matter/energy, and things like memories exist as patterns of arrangements of neurons within these brains.

Different coversation. You should take the credit where its due (read the OP)

 

[Learner]

...i do NOT think the universe has always existed

Great. Looks like we agree on something at last.

So...either it came into existence spontaneously (magic) or was caused.

If caused, then caused by deliberate intent/agency OR a necessary, forced caused (which itself requires a prior explanation ---> infinite regression?)

Was it inevitable that the universe came into existence?

Ah ....so Kieth doesn't believe in the universe has always existed (Well noted Lion).

 

[Learner]

you SAY that matter and energy are tge same thing, then explain why you treat them as different things, ducking the question posed to you, and making a hash of the others' claims.

What the fuck IS your 'point,' then? except your side seems to consistently take 'uncertainty' as a failure.

Best put away your "don't understand" joker cards, (I know enough to discuss with)so we can advance a little as I really can't be bothered to play that game.

how about any sign that you actually do understand, then? Care to play that game? SHOW your level of understanding, rather than assert it?

You and Atrib seem to be suggesting previously... "energy is synominous to paper planes and trees," regardless of when trees existed, which sounded a tad confusing (garbled logic-like) saying that the earth, planets and paper planes are the same thing as energy in the context to Steves OP below....

Ok, but where did god come from? Was he, she, or it always was and always will be o? Hmmmm….if so why could the universe itself not have always existed with no beginn9ng or end?

My point was that the physical universe ...the SOLID stuff we observe with our eyes has a beginning ...has a date or when it was formed because SCIENCE SAYS SO. Energy however WITHOUT physical form has always existed was my proposition - unless one takes to N Krauss who once said IIRC "the universe came about because of the number zero or the letter O?".

As I said previously, both of you confusingly (language) seem to make the point; responding with the notion that... "energy is synominous (exists) with paper planes and planets" which is not the same as .... paper planes and planets are synominous to energy e.g. paper planes and planets did NOT always exist!!!!


Only now you mention you don't take to the line above in bold, so I am wondering if Atrib is arguing from the concept. So that there is no misunderstanding before responding further.


Better to have garbled posts than garbled common-sense (I say half jestingly).

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Anyone can google up a scientific discussion and answer to the question, "Are energy and matter the same thing?"

 

[Learner]

Anyone can google up a scientific discussion and answer to the question, "Are energy and matter the same thing?"

Playing your joker card again because of the notion that 'trees and planets are quite young in the cosmic realm of things?'

*Edit: Which was the point Lion was making BTW.

 

[Learner]

The 'science is atheist' rant again. A recurring FOX News theme.

'atheist science' like evolution and cosmology. Science out to destroy Christianity. Science as another imagined Christian enemy doing the work of Satan.

Says the CNN.

CNN is the most trusted source in the world. I know because they say so. Kind of like what Chrustians say about god, bible is truth.

Yet again you sidestep the question.

Make up your mind. Which one do you want to be? CNN or FOX? You have first choice.

 

[Learner]

Yes propositins.

Science bases propositions on a set of unambiguous units of measure based on the kilogram, second, and meter. Systems International.


Today it is evolution and still cosmology.

Evolution proposes more from the point of life ALREADY existing oddly enough. With that line of thought, rather than Creation V Evolution ... I wondering how interesting Abiogenesis V Creation would be? Both concepts are in the context of coming into existence.

You'd think that the two would be combined - stating strongly under one proposition, presenting the FULL picture of the existence of life. (if not for being over cautious perhaps)

We often hear atheists always keeping seperate the two with phrases like " You don't know anything about evolution because abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution" blah blah blah. Ah ...so NO starting-point then, one must be asking? A little like magic or faith?

 

[none]

how many numbers are there?

 

[Learner]

Not sure what you mean? May not be in context with your Q but Professor and mathematician John Lennox says "numbers aren't real things."

 

[none]

Not sure what you mean? May not be in context with your Q but Professor and mathematician John Lennox says "numbers aren't real things."

do they help us understand real things?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Anyone can google up a scientific discussion and answer to the question, "Are energy and matter the same thing?"

Playing your joker card again because of the notion that 'trees and planets are quite young in the cosmic realm of things?'

*Edit: Which was the point Lion was making BTW.

Interesting that you would make the joker analogy. We know the joker is a magic card, beats everything else in the deck. Typical religious thinking.

Evolution proposes more from the point of life ALREADY existing oddly enough. With that line of thought, rather than Creation V Evolution ... I wondering how interesting Abiogenesis V Creation would be? Both concepts are in the context of coming into existence.

You'd think that the two would be combined - stating strongly under one proposition, presenting the FULL picture of the existence of life. (if not for being over cautious perhaps)

We often hear atheists always keeping seperate the two with phrases like " You don't know anything about evolution because abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution" blah blah blah. Ah ...so NO starting-point then, one must be asking? A little like magic or faith?

Religious creationism proposes more from the point of magic already existing, not so oddly enough. But of course religion has nothing to do with magic, blah blah blah. It all just happens because of an invisible magic person living in the sky. Not so different from a jolly prson in a red suit living with elves and flying reindeer at the north pole. Granted religious tales are a bit more developed but have the same genesis and appeal.

Not sure what you mean? May not be in context with your Q but Professor and mathematician John Lennox says "numbers aren't real things."

do they help us understand real things?

Do they help us understand religious magic? No. But tales of religious magic use lots of numbers.

And in most aspects of the christian religion three equals one. That's pretty interesting.

 

[none]

I did find it curios that the universe is modeled as expanding faster than the speed of light at some time...