• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The Christ Myth Theory

I am NOT sure what distinction you are making. What does your "historical" mean here?
Historical for me means that the gospels are talking about the life of a singular individual who minus the supernatural silliness actually lived and died the experiences described therein, generally speaking.

As TomC alluded to elsewhere "historical" is not the same as "inspired" by actual events that the author may or may not have witnessed.

Not to make the point again ad nauseum, did Hemingway write a story using the struggle of an old fisherman who was down on his luck, or is Hemingway relating a story as witnessed, generally speaking.
 
I answered a question in the "Historical Karen" thread. My response really belongs here.

Carrier employs Bayes ridiculously but nobody complains about THAT, except for me.
What is ridiculous about his assumptions? Do you have a better way to analyze the historicity of the Jesus claims?

I've no problem with the principle of Bayesian analysis, but I think it is impossibly difficult to apply in many complicated cases.
If its too difficult to reliably estimate the parameters used in a Bayesian analysis, it is too difficult to make kind of assertion about the truth of the proposition.

Does Mark's narrative read like it's based on a flesh-and-blood man (as C.S. Lewis insists) or like it's pure fiction (as some others insist)? I don't know. Do you?
I haven't read Mark's narrative; I have read a translation of a copy of a copy of a copy of unknown provenance. I have no way to verify the claims made in Mark's narrative, nor the ability to estimate even that the claims we read today are the claims originally made by the author of Mark. For all I know, the gospels could be fan fiction.

The analyst would get very different results from different opinions, but Carrier avoids the issue by simply crossing apparent authenticity of narratives completely off the list of evidence to be examined.

Here's a clearer example. In his Book XX, Josephus confirms the identity of the "Lord's brother" Paul describes in Galatians 1:19:
Flavius Josephus said:
So [Ananus] assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus who was called Christ, whose name was James: and some of his companions. And when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.
Mythical men do NOT have flesh-and-blood brothers. If Josephus really wrote this, it would show that he thought Jesus called Christ was a real historical person. The evidentiary value would be HUGE. But was this Josephus text doctored in the 3rd or 4th century by a Christian? I don't know; do you?
We don't know Josephus wrote this. Even if we were to accept Josephus as the author, we have no way to verify his sources.


And what if the original was "brother of Jesus whose name was James" with only "who was called Christ" interpolated? It would still have some evidentiary value. (Yes, Jesus was a common name — that's why suffixes like "the son of Damneus" or "who was called Christ" are appended — but why mention the brother at all?)

What are the odds?
I don't know what the odds are because there is insufficient information. That is the point.


I don't know. Maybe — wild guesses — 5% that the original Josephus never mentioned this James at all; 25% that he mentioned James but no brother; 40% that he mentioned the brother but not "called Christ", 30% that the paragraph is as Josephus originally wrote it? And there are plenty of other relevant facts. The head gets dizzy imagining the complicated flow graph that defines the Bayesian calculations required.

So what weight does Richard Carrier give Josephus' writing in his Bayesian flow graph? Zero. With a Z.
As would I. For the reasons stated above.

(That approach DOES avoid a lot of unpleasant arithmetic! :cool: ). "Your Honor, the entirety of Josephus' writings are inadmissable. I will move for a mistrial if opposing counsel shows any James or Jesus mention in Josephus to the jury again." ZERO. Carrier decides that Josephus' mentionS of Jesus were probably interpolations, but probably morphs into 100% certainty BEFORE he ever trots out Bayes' Theorem.

Do you understand my objection? Raise your hand if you do; you'll be the first one.
Feel free to produce Josephus for cross examination, and we can take it from there. Your analogy is flawed because witnesses testifying in trials can be cross examined.

:confused2: Do you have the slightest clue what Bayesian analysis even is? :confused2:
I thought Bayesian was a form of psychotherapy.
 
:confused2: Do you have the slightest clue what Bayesian analysis even is? :confused2:
Yes I do. It was covered in a grad-level statistics class I took at Berkeley as part of my PhD work in Engineering and Applied Math. I did not use it in my research as my topic was nonlinear dynamics and solvers for very large nonlinear PDE sets, so there is that.

Now that we have dispensed with the irrelevant ad-homs, can you point out the factual and/or logical inconsistencies in my post?
 
:confused2: Do you have the slightest clue what Bayesian analysis even is? :confused2:
Yes I do. It was covered in a grad-level statistics class I took at Berkeley as part of my PhD work in Engineering and Applied Math. I did not use it in my research as my topic was nonlinear dynamics and solvers for very large nonlinear PDE sets, so there is that.

Now that we have dispensed with the irrelevant ad-homs, can you point out the factual and/or logical inconsistencies in my post?
I equate Berkley and non linear solver with SPICE.

In my incarnation as a reliability engineer I was aware of Bayesian techniques. Useful in limted bounded situations but easily subject to misapplication.
 
So ... What do Infidels think?
I think there is insufficient evidence to establish the proposition as more likely to be true than not.
The proposition being that the gospel accounts of Jesus are based on a single flesh and blood historical person.

Try to forget, if you can, that "your team" treats Carrier as a Great Prophet and is rooting for Josephus' text to have been thoroughly doctored in the 3rd century.
I don't treat Carrier as a Great Prophet. I haven't seen anyone here refer to him as that either. So, this is nothing more than a strawman, a fallacy.

DO recall, please, that "Jesus" was a very common name. Was the new High Priest the brother of the James who was stoned? What about Paul's James/Jesus? Two different Jameses and two different Jesuses? Or did some 3rd century scribe notice the accidental interpolation in Josephus and decide to exploit it by doctoring Galatians?
Begging the question much?

The issue at hand is to rate the plausibility of Carrier's solution to a quandary in Antiquities XX. Was the Jesus who was made High Priest the very same Jesus whose brother James had been stoned three months earlier?
Feel free to elaborate on what Carrier did wrong, and what you would have done instead.

Your arguments in this thread have been nothing but a giant web of arguments from ignorance. Don't just ask the question, spell out the answer, and provide the facts and logic to support what you believe to be the correct answer. If you want to criticize Carrier's work, or something someone wrote, explain why you think they are wrong instead of simply begging the question over and over.
 
I think there is insufficient evidence to establish the proposition as more likely to be true than not.
The proposition being that the gospel accounts of Jesus are based on a single flesh and blood historical person.
Given Paul’s testimony that he hallucinated a Jesus constructed from the Jewish Scriptures, it only need be shown—as Narve Strand asserts—"that the historicist doesn’t have real evidence that would make his purely human Jesus existing more probable than not."

Paul’s Jesus is arguably a composite: Part hallucinated, part rambling literary construct from the Jewish Scriptures . . . We don’t even have to hold this as a positive thesis, only to point out that Paul believed in this [Jesus] figure and that (a) nothing follows from this about his existence and besides (b) this Jesus ever having existed is prima facie unlikely too. A consistent ahistorical stance here is like atheism: Just like with the theist, the only thing we really need to show is that the historicist doesn’t have real evidence that would make his purely human Jesus existing more probable than not.
—Strand, Narve (5 May 2019). [1.1 ver]. “Why Jesus Most Probably Never Existed: Ehrman’s Double Standards”. Academia.edu

I’m not saying anyone can prove Jesus didn’t exist. I’m saying the available evidence is too ambiguous or otherwise problematic to establish any particular model of an historical Jesus beyond reasonable doubt. If all such models not just can but must be doubted, there’s no way of knowing, from our standpoint now with the evidence we have, whether anything like the familiar Jesus actually lived. Given that extreme uncertainty, a mythicist scenario becomes at least as plausible and as likely as any of the historicist ones.
—Cain, Benjamin (19 August 2020). "Clarifying and Debating the Christ Myth Theory". Medium.​

Cain—Pemberton​

• Cain, Benjamin (2 June 2020). "Assessing the Christ Myth Theory". Medium.
‣ Pemberton, Graham (13 June 2020). "Reflections on the Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ — part 1". Medium.
‣ Pemberton, Graham (15 July 2020). "Reflections on the Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ — part 2". Medium.
• Cain, Benjamin (21 June 2020). "Clarifying and Debating the Christ Myth Theory". Medium.
‣ Pemberton, Graham (30 June 2020). "Further Reflections on the Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ". Medium.
• Cain, Benjamin (6 July 2020). "Clarifying and Debating the Christ Myth Theory: Round Two". Medium.
 
Re-reading my recent post addressed to atrib, it seems almost rude. But I get frustrated: People ask about Bayesian analysis, then ignore that concept and focus on specific evidence. Let's crawl before we try to walk. For this post, let's ignore anything we think we know about specific Jesus evidence and focus just on the method of Bayes. I'll start with a very simple application. Consider it a thought experiment.
Instead of wasting time talking about hypotheticals, why not set up the analysis for the proposition being discussed, with supporting documentation for the parameters you are using? And show us what you come up with.
 
...set up the analysis for the proposition being discussed...
  • My interest is in the "Origin Story" of XSianity
[MOOD-MUSIC] “In The Beginning”. YouTube. Hans Zimmer.

Lord IS revealed himself to his first devotee and said many wise thing to him. Said devotee gave Lord IS the cognomem XS, and started a cult called XSians.

In short: Paul believed in the divine Lord IS XS from the very beginning!

It seems the more we actually learn about the gospels and their main protagonist the more we must accept the conclusion that the life and death and resurrection of Jesus is a historicized fable. A religious story meant originally to teach, compete and elevate—eventually became taken as literal fact.

As a clinical psychologist who has written books about the psychology of superheroes, I think origin stories show us not how to become super but how to be hero.
—Robin Rosenberg, “The Psychology Behind Superhero Origin Stories”. Smithsonian Magazine.
 
If this is to be a pissing contest, I happen to have a U.S. patent on an algorithm to combine the probability estimates from a plurality of conflicting estimators. (Mathematical algorithms cannot be patented? Sure they can; just prepend "I claim a digital computing apparatus which performs ...")

. . . People ask about Bayesian analysis, then ignore that concept and focus on specific evidence. Let's crawl before we try to walk. For this post, let's ignore anything we think we know about specific Jesus evidence and focus just on the method of Bayes. I'll start with a very simple application. Consider it a thought experiment.
Instead of wasting time talking about hypotheticals, why not set up the analysis for the proposition being discussed, with supporting documentation for the parameters you are using? And show us what you come up with.

What I have repeatedly claimed is that the historicity question is much too complicated to hope for any simple Bayesian analysis. Since you don't seem to understand this, I introduced the hypothetical which you refuse to consider. Let's try again. Suppose you are some sort of betting agent and are REQUIRED to come up with a probability estimate on which you risk your money. What you must NOT do, if your analysis is objective and sincere, is to zero out any probability you find it too difficult or confusing to estimate.

Do you agree that you should want to take advantage of the clue that the pass-line bettor is jumping up and down? You do NOT know why she is jumping; should you ignore the jumping or try to form some probabilistic guess? Remember: Your money is on the line.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I think it's almost futile to try to construct an objective and complete probability flow graph for the historicity question. Even the James/Jesus issue poses much difficulty. Richard Carrier PhD has no problem with this: He simply ZEROES out any pro-historicity probability related to the James/Jesus issue.

You wrote that you don't know if Josephus wrote about Jesus's brother James. I asked you whether that admission implied that your probability estimate that Josephus wrote about Jesus' brother James is zero. You didn't answer. Care to try again?

The James/Jesus riddle is just one tiny part of the historicity problem. But the fact that it is mentioned both by Paul and by Josephus gives it special evidentiary value.

Just in the last day or so, at least five opinions on the Josephus/James/Jesus issue have been offered in this thread:
  • Carrier: The text is as Josephus wrote it except that "who was called Christ" was a later addition. The original left Jesus unidentified, but it probably referred to Jesus ben Damneus.
  • Moogly, Yessed by dbz: "Josephus is writing hearsay. He thought Jesus was a real person based stories he heard of perhaps things he read about. " The paragraph is the original Josephus text, but Josephus was misinformed.
  • Catholic and Orthodox churches, reported by Tharmas: Josephus' text is unedited but misinformed. With Mary a perpetual virgin, Jesus had no brothers.
  • dbz: "as Narve Strand asserts: the historicist doesn’t have real evidence that would make his purely human Jesus existing more probable than not." (I don't know what this means. If a guessed probability is less than 49% it should be treated as zero?)
  • atrib: "We don't know if Josephus wrote it."

    Wrote what? The 'James' part of the sentence, the 'Jesus' or the 'Christ'? If we don't know, do we treat all probabilities as Zero? Any probability greater than 0 but less than 1 is an admission of ignorance.
I have no magic ball to assess the likelihood of these or other scenarios. Unlike the insistent "He was the Messiah" in Josephus' Book XVIII the "who was called Christ" in Book XX seems less likely to be 3rd-century propagandizing, but there's no simple way to guess.

What makes Jesus/James especially important as evidence is that it also occurs in Paul's Galatians. There's a big difference between having TWO independent sources and having just one. Mythicists mostly insist that the "brother" in Galatians is metaphorical. But guess how many other "Lord's brother" (or similar constructions) there are in the Bible:
Zero.

I hope those presenting opinions on Josephus' James/Jesus also offer opinions on Paul's James/Jesus. It appears that Carrier treats these as two different Jameses and two different Jesuses.
 
Because Josephus is reporting hearsay, because Paul is admittedly delusional, because Eusebius is Eusebius, because the church controlled what was to be preserved and what was to be destroyed, because people today are still encountering Jesus as Paul and others did, because Jesus has been for centuries nothing more than a supernatural liturgical construct, because the gospels are fiction, and because of how writers write, Jesus appears to be as real to me as does Bigfoot.

Lets also remember that Jesus is big business and has been for thousands of years. One's fortunes were measurably diminished to claim that Jesus was only ever as real as Hercules or Paul Bunyan.
 
Paul was delusional but picked "James" to be Jesus' brother just like Josephus did? Why not Simon, or Andrew, or Santiago? Were he and Josephus smoking the same brand of weed?
 
Paul was delusional but picked "James" to be Jesus' brother just like Josephus did? Why not Simon, or Andrew, or Santiago?

Some time ago I was attempting to think through the pros and cons surrounding the disputed claims over the significance and meaning of James being described as the brother of the Lord in Paul’s letter to Galatians. I set out the various factors in a discussion of Bayesian probability. But since Bayesian analysis is a scary phrase for some people I have extracted the different pros and cons from that post and set them out here for reference purposes. Being lifted from the original post, some of the points appear here to be in no particular order.

Before I do let’s have a look at another quotation from a historian:
Historical research does not consist, as beginners in particular often suppose, in the pursuit of some particular evidence that will answer a particular question (G.R. Elton, The Practice of History, p.88)
If that’s what historical research is not, Elton goes on to explain what it is:
it consists of an exhaustive, and exhausting, review of everything that may conceivably be germane to a given investigation. Properly observed, this principle provides a manifest and efficient safeguard against the dangers of personal selection of evidence. (p.88)

That was the kind of thinking that led to the following list of pros and cons. I’m not interested in dogmatically proof-texting any argument like an apologist. I am interested in attempting to approach questions and evidence according to normative historical principles.

[1...21]

Given all of the above, let’s weigh the alternatives

Given the considerations listed above, I would say that the evidence is just what we would expect if James were not a literal sibling of Jesus.

It is also just what we would expect (not being attested until the third century despite the anti-Marcionite value of such a concept, and slight hints it did not appear in the text known to Tertullian) if the phrase “brother of the Lord” entered as a gloss.

But if I’m wrong, I’m wrong. I’m more than happy to reconsider any of the above evidence and to add any other points into the mix.

1. According to the Gospels Jesus did have a brother named James.

2. Now if in Galatians we read that “James [was] the brother of Jesus” then, of course, we would all agree that such a phrase points to a sibling relationship.

3. But we do have many instances where “brother” is used of Christians and in Hebrews Jesus speaks of having many brethren.

4. “Lord” is a religious title, not a personal name, so there is some small room for “brother of the Lord” being used in a spiritual or non-familial sense.

5. We know of no other instances of people in this context being called the “brother of a spiritual Lord” (or God) so this reduces the chances that Paul was saying James was the brother of the spiritual Lord.

6. But we also have another tradition that Jesus had no siblings at all. So how can that little detail be explained if it were known that James had been the brother of Jesus?

7. We also have information that James was reputed to have been a renowned leader of the Jerusalem church, and his relationship with God was so close that he was known as old ‘camel-knees’, a repetitive strain injury/side-effect from overmuch praying. Our interest is in the likelihood of such a phrase in this context being an indicator that James and Jesus were siblings. So if James were such an unusually holy man then maybe there is some plausibility in the idea that he was known as a special “brother of the (spiritual) Lord”.

8. Another circumstance we do know was common enough in ancient times was the tendency for copyists to edit works, usually by adding the odd word or phrase or more. Sometimes this was entered as a gloss in the margin by way of commentary, with a subsequent copyist incorporating that gloss into the main body of the text. That’s a possibility, too, given what we know of both Christian and “pagan” texts.

9. Given what we know about the evolution of texts, the alterations to manuscripts and so on, it is by no means sure how secure any wording, especially a slight one, in a New Testament text should be considered which is far removed from the original letter of Paul. How can a decision be made about key questions based on this inherent degree of uncertainty, an uncertainty justified by the general instability of the textual record visible in the manuscripts we do have? And yet arguments are formulated on such slender reeds all the time.

10. On the other side of the ledger we have the likelihood that if Jesus were known as a Son of David then it is reasonable to imagine that his royal heir would be his next-in-line brother, probably James. So “brother of the Lord” may not be such an unusual way to describe him in the letter.

How likely or expected is the evidence we have if James really were the brother of the Lord?

11. If James were known as the brother of the Lord in the early Church we would reasonably expect someone who met that James to tell others that the James he met was “the brother of the Lord”. (And certainly Jesus is called “Lord” very often elsewhere. So is God, but Jesus is too.) So to that extent the Galatians 1:19 statement about James is just what we would expect.

But see Tim Widowfield’s discussion. He throws cold water on what I thought was such a simple point to make in The Function of “Brother of the Lord” in Galatians 1:19

12. Against this, however, is the problem that if our hypothesis were true — that James, a leader of the church, really were a sibling of Jesus — we would expect to find supporting claims to this effect in the contemporary or near contemporary literature.

13. But in the Book of Acts we have what is surely a strange silence about James being related to Jesus despite his prominence in the Jerusalem church. Additionally, we have the unexpected failure to explain how this James acquired this position of pre-eminence. The beginning of the book indicates only twelve apostles and a total of 120 brethren were the original Christian club. James is not singled out. Yet we inexplicably find James leading the Jerusalem conference in Acts 15. It should further be kept in mind that we have no reason to assume that the designation “brother of the Lord” in Galatians was a reference to a “head” of the church as James appears to be in Acts.

14. The letter attributed to James in the New Testament gives no hint that its author knew that the name and person of James was a blood relation of Jesus. One would have expected some such indication in a letter sent to brethren far and wide (to “the twelve tribes”) to alert readers to the presumed author’s authority. This would be especially so if James were a reasonably common name. Given the often contentious nature of early Christian correspondence, it is difficult to explain why any information to enhance the author’s authoritative status would not be made explicit.

15. The letter attributed to Jude in the New Testament is just as unexpected in the way it identifies its author as the brother of James and not Jesus — if indeed our hypothesis were correct.

16. The Gospels indicate that James, though a brother of Jesus, was hostile to Jesus. There are no indications anywhere in the Gospels that this hostility was ever resolved. So on the strength of what we know from the Gospels we must suspect that the James Paul met in Jerusalem was not the same as the brother in the Gospels. If he were the same we would expect some hint somewhere that he came to have a change of heart.

17. Another factor in the Gospel account is the unusual combination of the names assigned to the brothers of Jesus. Any discussion on whether or not Jesus had literal siblings necessarily embraces Mark’s naming four brothers:

Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James (=Jacob), Joseph, Judas (=Judah) and Simon (=Simeon)? (Mark 6:3)

Although the names may have been common, to find these particular names all bracketed together is still striking. Jacob, Joseph and Judah are three of the most prominent of Israelite patriarchs, and Simeon, too, is strongly associated in this status with Judah.

It’s a little like naming a string of Olsons Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin: the names themselves convey a close identification with the nation’s foundational past. (Fredriksen, Paula. 1999. Jesus of Nazareth, p.240)

18. Paul in Galatians expresses no interest in learning about Jesus things that only a brother could know. He even scoffs at the idea that James might have anything to teach him. He is evidently not interested in knowing anything about Jesus in this worldly context.

19. The context in which the brothers of Jesus appear in the first Gospel (Mark) is the theological message that prophets are not accepted by their own kith and kin. The scene is presented to illustrate this message. It sets Jesus in the tradition of other men of God: Abel, Joseph, Jephthah, Moses, David . . . So the purpose is not to convey historical information but to illustrate a theological message and claim about Jesus. Given the absence of any other evidence clearly supporting historicity, this is a point against the historicity of the relationship between the two persons.

20. There is no external witness to Galatians 1:19 till the time of Origen (3rd century) despite its apparent potential usefulness in arguments against Marcionites by “orthodox” representatives such as Tertullian (second century).

21. There is a critical case of some slight cogency against the authenticity of Gal. i, 18, 19, which was absent from Marcion’s Apostolicon; the word “again” in Gal. ii, 1, which presupposes the earlier passage, seems to have been interpolated as it is absent from Irenaeus’s full and accurate citation of this section of the Epistle to the Galatians in his treatise against Heretics. (p. 76 of Jesus Not A Myth by A. D. Howell Smith.)
 
• Carrier (25 August 2022). "List of Historians Who Take Mythicism Seriously". Richard Carrier Blogs.
There are legitimate reasons to doubt Jesus existed, even as a mundane man whose legend became exaggerated (which is, definitely, always plausible too). These reasons have survived peer reviewtwice. And yet a common fallacy deployed against this fact is that “no relevant experts take this seriously.” This is already a fallacy. Once there is a multiply-corroborated peer-reviewed challenge to a consensus, that means it’s substantial enough that the consensus needs to be re-examined on the new evidence and analysis presented. It might survive that examination. But you still have to do it. You can’t just say “no one takes it seriously” as an excuse to not even conduct that examination
[. . .]
I will dispatch the mere premise of this argument, the claim that “no one takes it seriously.” I will maintain here an ongoing list of all those bona fide exerts—scholars with actual and relevant PhDs (many of them even sitting or emeritus professors of the subject)—who do take it seriously. I previously had maintained this list in response to Bart Ehrman’s deployment of this fallacy. But the number of scholars who meet even his absurdly narrow criteria—and even more so any genuinely pertinent criteria—has grown so large it needs its own page now. So here it is.

In the following list I present in bold text those historians who either doubt the historicity of Jesus or have admitted to being agnostic about it (as in, they are unsure whether he existed or not). All the other scholars listed are convinced Jesus existed—they still don’t think “Mythicism” is probable (the idea that Jesus is entirely, and not just partially, mythical)—but they have gone on record admitting that at least some theories of the origin of Christianity without a real Jesus can be plausible enough that the debate is worth taking seriously, and not just dismissed out of hand as crackpot.
  1. Thomas Brodie. A now-retired professor of biblical studies who confessed his doubts in Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery (Sheffield Phoenix 2012); see my discussion in Historicity News and Brodie on Jesus.
  2. Richard Carrier (myself). An independent scholar with a PhD in ancient history from Columbia University and multiple peer-reviewed publications, including the academic study On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reasons for Doubt (Sheffield Phoenix 2014). My colloquial summary, Jesus from Outer Space, outlines in simple terms the underlying logic of that peer-reviewed study. My anthology Hitler Homer Bible Christ includes all my pertinent peer-reviewed journal articles up to 2014. And my study of the methodology, which was peer-reviewed by professors of both mathematics and biblical studies (a requirement I set in my contract), is Proving History: Bayes’s Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus (Prometheus 2012).
  3. Raphael Lataster. An independent scholar with a PhD in religious studies from the University of Sydney, who explained his doubts in his peer-reviewed assessment of the debate in Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (Brill 2019).
  4. Robert M. Price. An independent scholar with two pertinent PhDs, in Systematic Theology and New Testament Studies. He has multiple publications explaining his doubts, e.g. The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems (American Atheist 2012).
  5. Thomas Thompson. A retired yet renowned professor of biblical studies and second-temple Judaism, who originated the now-consensus doubts about the historicity of Moses and the Patriarchs, and explained his similar doubts about Jesus in The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David (Basic Books 2009) and Is This Not The Carpenter? The Question of the Historicity of the Figure of Jesus (Routledge 2017).
  6. Philip Davies. A professor of biblical studies (now deceased) with a PhD in the field from Oxford, who publicly argued that doubting historicity was a respectable academic position; and then privately admitted that in fact he actually doubted the historicity of Jesus. This was posthumously confirmed by correspondence with Raphael Lataster and myself (e.g. see Lataster 2019).
  7. Hector Avalos. At the time a sitting professor of religion at Iowa State University (now deceased), with a PhD in Hebrew Bible and Near Eastern Studies from Harvard, who declared his agnosticism about historicity to me personally, and then publicly in the Ames Tribune on 2 March 2013.
  8. Arthur Droge. A sitting professor of Early Christianity, previously at UC San Diego and later the University of Toronto, with a PhD in the field from the University of Chicago, who explained his agnosticism at the 2008 Amherst conference on the historical Jesus, and in its associated 2009 article for CAESAR, “Jesus and Ned Lud[d]: What’s in a Name?”
  9. Carl Ruck. A professor of classical studies at Boston University, with a PhD in ancient literature from Harvard, who confessed his doubts on a Mythvision interview in May 2022 (in minute 31).
  10. David Madison. An independent scholar with a PhD in Biblical Studies from Boston University, who publicly confirmed his agnosticism in Q&A during the GCRR 2021 e Conference on the Historical Jesus.
  11. Herman Detering. A lifelong pastor and independent scholar with a PhD in theology and New Testament studies under Dr. Walter Schmithals at Humboldt-Universität Berlin. His doctoral dissertation argued that Paul (and by extension Jesus) were rhetorical inventions.
  12. Zeba Crook.
  13. Kurt Noll.
  14. Emanuel Pfoh.
  15. James Crossley.
  16. Justin Meggitt.
  17. Darren Slade.
  18. Steve Mason.
  19. Richard C. Miller.
  20. John Kloppenborg.
  21. Tom Dykstra.
  22. Francesca Stavrakopoulou.
  23. Burton Mack.
Which makes twentythree relevantly qualified experts now who concur mythicism is at least plausible. Half of them are even outright doubters. There are surely many others who simply haven’t gone on the record—just like Davies, who feared backlash from admitting his doubt publicly while alive. If you find public statements placing any more scholars in either category, do let me know in comments below. Though please note that only scholars with relevant PhDs are to be listed here.
 
Paul was delusional but picked "James" to be Jesus' brother just like Josephus did? Why not Simon, or Andrew, or Santiago? Were he and Josephus smoking the same brand of weed?
I think our discussion would be more productive without hyperbole and unnecessary quips like allusions to smoking weed.

If I was composing historical verse and had no direct knowledge of the events I was relating I would use the oral and written sources I have and not prejudice myself either way about the veracity of those sources. Ideally I would prefer multiple independent corroborating sources.

I am reminded here of my days sitting on a jury when witnesses were called. One witness would directly contradict what the other witness was saying, these are witnesses with eyewitness knowledge of the events and watched the same event transpire. Fortunately there were other sources, other evidence upon which a decision could be based and therefore a verdict could be reached that satisfied the best objective evidence.

Whether Jesus is more likely mythical or historical will never see the light of a courtroom but that would be an interesting exercise. In my humble opinion an historical Jesus is first and foremost an emotional Jesus. That's why he is a god today. Most Christians would likely not realize that they have merely incorporated two more gods into the Jewish god to come up with their own god. Culturally there is just so much bias and even ignorance supporting historicity among followers that Jesus the man will always persist. For those of us brought up in this tradition we appreciate the situation.
 
Whether Jesus is more likely mythical or historical will never see the light of a courtroom but that would be an interesting exercise.
As I understand, the U.S. Supreme court was unwilling to define pornography or myth. You know it when you see it!

Christ (philosophical) myth theory (fringe)​

  • "Jesus Christ is a pure myth—that he never had an existence, except as a Messianic idea, or an imaginary solar deity."[276]
  • Jesus began as a myth with historical trappings possibly including "reports of an obscure Jewish Holy man bearing this name" being added later.[277][278]
  • "Jesus never existed at all and that the myth came into being through a literary process."[279]
  • All trace of a historical person, if there was ever one was to begin with, has been lost. (Jesus agnosticism)[215]
  • The Legendary Jesus thesis - "The term 'legend' has various meanings in different contexts. In some academic circles, i.e., certain sectors of folkloristics, the term has come to refer to a transmitted story set in the relatively recent, or at least the historical, past that, though believed to be true by the teller, may or may not be rooted in actual history. On the multiple uses and definitional complexities of the term ‘legend'—including its relationship to 'history'—see [reference list omitted]."[280]

Christ (historical) myth theory (the narrative is essentially false), ahistorical, or reductive​

  • "Many radical Freethinkers believe that Christ is a myth, of which Jesus of Nazareth is the basis, but that these narratives are so legendary and contradictory as to be almost, if not wholly, unworthy of credit."[276]
  • "Other skeptics deny that the Jesus character portrayed in the New Testament existed, but that there could have been a first century personality after whom the exaggerated myth was pattered."[279]
  • There is just enough to show there was a first century teacher called Jesus and little else.[215] (The lower end of Marshall's historical Jesus spectrum.)

Triumphalist theory or extreme historical​

  • "Christ is a historical character, supernatural and divine; and that the New Testament narratives, which purport to give a record of his life and teachings, contain nothing but infallible truth."[276]
  • "The New Testament is basically true in all of its accounts except that there are natural explanations for the miracle stories."[279]

Moderate historical, Christ (Historical) Myth (the narrative is essentially true)​

  • "Jesus of Nazareth is a historical character and that these narratives, eliminating the supernatural elements, which they regard as myths, give a fairly authentic account of his life."[276]
  • "Jesus did exist, and that some parts of the New Testament are accurate, although the miracles and the claim to deity are due to later editing of the original story."[279]
  • A historical Jesus did exist but was very different from the gospel Jesus.[215] (This is very close to the ahistorical category above)


So how do we proceed? We should start by examining the best case for both sides. And see which side has the sounder premises and logic, when everything is added up, nothing straw-manned, nothing swept under the rug. When all fallacies and falsehoods removed, from both sides, what remains? . . . We may end up simply not knowing whether Jesus really existed or not. But I put it to you, that an honest and unbiased inquiry, will not end up in certainty that he did.
—Richard Carrier[1]
 
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Well I'll be. A well credential classicist/philologist professor has said he is a Mythicist, with a fresh approach.
His argument is simple: Christianity is a Hellenistic religion, not a Jewish one. It has borrowed from Judaism for exotic ethnicity.
Posted by u/AractusP, 4 August 2022: Classicist Carl AP Ruck: “I'm a Mythicist” r/AcademicBiblical
Mark says @ Vridar: 2022-08-27
Volker Popp and others have shown how a variety of the Jesus cult preceded and then morphed into the Muhammad cult. Food for thought as to the possibilities of earlier iterations of all this syncretistic stuff.
As much of a failure as the Persian’s 626 siege, 674-8 completely undermined Mu’awiya’s legitimacy as a leader.
It is in this period, according to Popp, that Islam’s true roots can be discerned. ‘Abd al-Malik provoked opposition (mostly notably ibn al-Zubayr) by insisting on a pre-Nicaean conservatism that less trumped the divisions scuppering the Christian factions than turned its back on them. This stance posited Jesus as Abd Allah (the Servant of God); the one who was to be understood as the muhammadun (chosen or praised one); a position articulated on the Dome of the Rock (a place that should be understood as the first monument of Arabian theology against Hellenistic varieties), which in the third line on the inside of the octagon on its south-east side reads:
“Muhammadun ‘Abdu Ilahi wa-rasuluhu” (The Servant of God and his apostle be praised)
The “Mohammad” title slowly spread with al-Malik’s followers from the east to west of the Levant, operating like the da’wa battle call. In many ways, it formed an ad fontes movement against Mu’awiya’s unedifying scenes of imitatio imperii. Instead of aping the Hellenistic dualism of Nestorianism vs Monophysitism, it set up an older Syrian theology (more dependent on Jewish accounts such as Toldot Yeshu than Christian competitors) that taught Jesus was no God but another prophet and that the Godhead was indivisible.
This didn’t make them feel different from Christians. The Ethiopians, for instance, saw tawahedo (or the unity of the godhead) as central to their Christian faith, just as the proto-Muslims valued tawhid. The Arabian focus on the prophets or messengers appeared an issue that amounted to more a difference in emphasis than type, just as the Ethiopian reliance on Mosaic law was eccentric but not un-Christian.
To the Arab mind, these saviours stood in a long line that included Noah, Lot, Ishmael, Moses, Shu’ayb, Hud, Salih and Jesus – each rescuing mankind from a natural or moral disaster. But instead of adopting the Pauline line that each operated on behalf of a revelation for all humanity, the Arabs saw themselves as the new Jews, the new chosen ones; as relatives of Jesus who’d fulfilled the briefs of the prophets. Everybody else had broken the din (religious contract) God made with the chosen, and each saviour had tried to restore. Only the Arabs had kept their legal claim intact.4
In this new environment, every title given to a ruler or Christ became highly politically and theologically charged. As Justinian II placed a portrait of Christ on his coins and called himself servus Christi (“servant of Christ”), so al-Malik responded by replacing the cross with the Stone of Genesis 31:47 (a cromlech in the form of the Yegar Sahaduta [“the stone of witness”]) calling himself Khalifat Allah or “speaker for God.”
In effect, the Arabs nationalised Jesus. Christ was the Muhammad (praised one) who as rasul (messenger) played apostle to the Arabs. What’s more the Arabs refused to see that victory could ever be achieved in a divine manoeuvre that involved death and slid into Docetism (the archetype of every future “Hidden” Imam).
Again, according to Popp, the spread of Islam was not achieved by the sword. But by spreading like any other religion, mainly from eastern Sassanian lands westwards.
 
If this is to be a pissing contest,
You asked me for my qualifications and I provided them. I don't care what your qualifications are, which is why I did not ask. I do ask that you put forward an argument to support the proposition you appear to be championing, but you seem reluctant to do that.

I happen to have a U.S. patent on an algorithm to combine the probability estimates from a plurality of conflicting estimators.
That might get you a date in Cambridge, Mass on Friday night, but I remain unmoved.

What I have repeatedly claimed is that the historicity question is much too complicated to hope for any simple Bayesian analysis.
Explain why. And then explain how the proposition should be properly addressed, if not through a Bayesian analysis, presenting your own analysis of the available information. Asking leading questions which presuppose the answers is not how arguments are presented.

Since you don't seem to understand this, I introduced the hypothetical which you refuse to consider. Let's try again.
This is not third grade show and tell. I am confident that I will be able to follow any analysis you might put forward, if you were to actually put forward an analysis. It is both insulting and frustrating that you continue to assume that I am a moron when I have told you my qualifications.

What you must NOT do, if your analysis is objective and sincere, is to zero out any probability you find it too difficult or confusing to estimate.
Propose a better estimate, and explain why your estimate is better. Show us your work.

You wrote that you don't know if Josephus wrote about Jesus's brother James. I asked you whether that admission implied that your probability estimate that Josephus wrote about Jesus' brother James is zero. You didn't answer. Care to try again?
I don't want to waste my time talking about hypotheticals. What part of this do you not understand?
I repeat, I have no way to verify that Josephus wrote this. Again, even assuming that Josephus wrote this, I have no way to verify his sources, or which Jesus and James he is talking about. There is no context under which any reasonable person would assign any kind of weight to this evidence that isn't zero or very close to zero. If you disagree, tell us what you would have assigned instead, and explain why. That way we actually have something to talk about.

atrib: "We don't know if Josephus wrote it."

Wrote what? The 'James' part of the sentence, the 'Jesus' or the 'Christ'? If we don't know, do we treat all probabilities as Zero? Any probability greater than 0 but less than 1 is an admission of ignorance.
Can you post a screenshot of what Carrier wrote exactly please? I am too lazy to find the book and pull it up.


I hope those presenting opinions on Josephus' James/Jesus also offer opinions on Paul's James/Jesus. It appears that Carrier treats these as two different Jameses and two different Jesuses.
They are described as very different people by the two sources. Paul talks about meeting a Jesus in the sky, somewhere between the earth and the moon. Josephus is far removed from the lifetime of the alleged historical Jesus and appears to be talking about a flesh and blood person. And these names were not uncommon in that part of the world at the time. It is very much a possibility that they were talking about different people.

If you want us to be believe that the proposition is more likely true than not, you have to present an argument laying out the premises supported by facts, and explain how this leads to your preferred conclusion. You don't make arguments by repeatedly asking questions that presuppose the answer. This is basic stuff, stuff that someone who knows how to apply for a patent should know.
 
[A]t least five opinions on the Josephus/James/Jesus issue have been offered in this thread:
  • Carrier: The text is as Josephus wrote it except that "who was called Christ" was a later addition. The original left Jesus unidentified, but it probably referred to Jesus ben Damneus.
  • Moogly, Yessed by dbz: "Josephus is writing hearsay. He thought Jesus was a real person based stories he heard of perhaps things he read about. " The paragraph is the original Josephus text, but Josephus was misinformed.
  • Catholic and Orthodox churches, reported by Tharmas: Josephus' text is unedited but misinformed. With Mary a perpetual virgin, Jesus had no brothers.
  • dbz: "as Narve Strand asserts: the historicist doesn’t have real evidence that would make his purely human Jesus existing more probable than not." (I don't know what this means. If a guessed probability is less than 49% it should be treated as zero?)
  • atrib: "We don't know if Josephus wrote it."

    Wrote what? The 'James' part of the sentence, the 'Jesus' or the 'Christ'? If we don't know, do we treat all probabilities as Zero? Any probability greater than 0 but less than 1 is an admission of ignorance.
I have no magic ball to assess the likelihood of these or other scenarios.

As to the question of the historicity Jesus—Carrier, dbz, and most trained historians, familiar with "Historical Methods"—assuming, arguendo the text is as Josephus wrote it; then it is dismissed as evidence for the historicity of Jesus per normative historical methodology on valid/usable evidence.

As a side topic of interest—separate from the question of the historicity Jesus:

Jewish Antiquities 20.200​

Viklund, Roger (2 April 2013). "Richard Carrier's article: Origen, Eusebius, and the Accidental Interpolation in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200". Jesus granskad.
To summarize, this is what Carrier suggests. In the 240’s Origen writes that “Titus destroyed Jerusalem, on account, as Josephus wrote, of James the Just, the brother of Jesus who was called Christ”. Although Origen says that Josephus wrote this, Origen nevertheless got it from Hegesippus, from whom he paraphrases it, not quotes it. He also includes a passage from Matt 1.16, and this he does in his Commentary on Matthew.
Origen searches Josephus in order to find where Josephus had written this, but does not manage to find the passage. He only finds the story of the stoning of one James in AJ 20.200 which spoke of “the brother of Jesus, whose name was James”. Perhaps he made a note there: “the one called Christ”. If Origen did not make such a note, then someone else later on made it, adapting to the phrase Origen previously used.
Eusebius used the same library as Origen less than a century later, and probably had a copy of AJ which was made from the very manuscript used by Origen. In the copying of that manuscript, the marginal note would have been inserted into the text so that it now read “the brother of Jesus who was called Christ, the name for whom was James …”. Eusebius, apart from this, also quoted the passage given by Origen as if it had been written by Josephus. But since he only got it from Origen, neither he could say where Josephus had written this.

Cf. Carrier, Richard (2012). "Origen, Eusebius, and the Accidental Interpolation in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200". Journal of Early Christian Studies. 20 (4): 489–514. doi:10.1353/earl.2012.0029.
Analysis of the evidence from the works of Origen, Eusebius, and Hegesippus concludes that the reference to “Christ” in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200 is probably an accidental interpolation or scribal emendation and that the passage was never originally about Christ or Christians. It referred not to James the brother of Jesus Christ, but probably to James the brother of the Jewish high priest Jesus ben Damneus.

Non-Biblical evidence is preferred over Biblical evidence by both apologists and scholars, because it (if it existed) is independent confirmation of Jesus, free from the taint of Christian propagandizing, among other issues such as circular reasoning. Raphael Lataster writes, "Using the Gospels to argue for Jesus’ existence may be circular reasoning. Arguing from external sources would generally result in a much more convincing case."[76]

There is no independent evidence of Jesus’s existence outside the New Testament. All external evidence for his existence, even if it were fully authentic (though much of it isn’t), cannot be shown to be independent of the Gospels, or Christian informants relying on the Gospels. None of it can be shown to independently corroborate the Gospels as to the historicity of Jesus. Not one single item of evidence. Regardless of why no independent evidence survives (it does not matter the reason), no such evidence survives.
Richard Carrier[77]

 
What I have repeatedly claimed is that the historicity question is much too complicated to hope for any simple Bayesian analysis.
Explain why. And then explain how the proposition should be properly addressed, if not through a Bayesian analysis, presenting your own analysis of the available information. Asking leading questions which presuppose the answers is not how arguments are presented.

Heilig, Christoph (27 March 2019). "What Bayesian Reasoning Can and Can't Do for Biblical Research". Zürich New Testament Blog.

1. Introduction to Given’s Review and Bayes’s Theorem​


Mark D. Given has recently reviewed my book Hidden Criticism? The Methodology and Plausibility of the Search for a Counter-Imperial Subtext in Paul for RBL. In this monograph, which was published as part of the WUNT II series by Mohr Siebeck in 2015 and in 2nd edition by Fortress in 2017, deals with the question of whether we can discern anti-imperial echoes in the letters of Paul. Obviously, I like the conclusion of Given’s review very much:


“… chapters 3–6 brim with more critical insights than I could possibly mention. The author is to be highly praised for his mastery of relevant research displayed throughout this book and the incisive and judicious commentary he provides on it. Hidden Criticism is an important contribution to scholarship on the subject of Paul and empire and a must read for anyone seriously interested in the topic.”

Given also identifies one area, where he is not that happy with my book and I think his criticism is worth being quoted in detail here. Since James McGrath has also posted about this on his blog (with several insightful comments under the original post), I’d like to take the opportunity here of deepening the conversation on this subject by on the one hand reflecting critically on some of the things I wrote in Hidden Criticismand by also, on the other hand, re-emphasising some aspects that have been important all along to me but which I probably did not formulate clearly enough in the past.


Here’s how Given introduces his complaint:


“I only have one major criticism of the book: the use of Bayes’s theorem. … Whether or not the theory is necessary, Heilig does not explain it well. I found myself consulting additional resources that did explain it well, and only afterward could I better evaluate what Heilig is trying to do with it.”

First of all, I am very grateful to Given that he actually went the extra mile and did additional research, something that certainly not every reviewer would have done. Accordingly, this blogpost is meant as an attempt to do justice to his effort and is not to be understood as the unsatisfied reaction by the author. Moreover, I think Given is entirely right in his criticism. I tried to keep the introduction to Bayes’s theorem as short as possible in order to avoid the impression that it might be a more central aspect than it actually was for my work – with the result that the introduction to the concept is probably way too dense. If you want to know what Bayes’s theorem is and how it might affect the way we construct arguments, I would strongly encourage you to simply watch this 10-minute-video. If you have never heard of Bayes, trust me, it is an excellent investment of your time!

2. Bayesian Reasoning Can Help Evaluate “Criteria” in Biblical Scholarship


Assuming that you’ve watched the video (or are already familiar with Bayes’s theorem anyway), I will now continue by considering Given’s conclusion about the potential benefits and limitations of Bayesian reasoning for biblical studies:


“To be sure, Heilig is explicitly clear that he is not claiming Bayes’s theorem is a methodological key that can open the door to assured results regarding the subtext hypothesis. However, implicitly he often argues as if it can, or at least that it can rule out some proposals … “

Given here touches on a very important point, namely the actual relevance of Bayes’s theorem for my book Hidden Criticism? In retrospect, I think that I might not have been clear enough on the question of why I even refer to the concept in chapter 2, which deals with the (in my view) dominant approach established by Neil Elliott and N. T. Wright of identifying a counter-imperial subtext in Paul by means of Richard B. Hays’s echo-criteria. The sole purpose of sketching the Bayesian principles was to evaluate this set of criteria. (I think that in my earlier essay-length summary of my argument this role might have been more obvious. You can access it here.)


Biblical studies is obsessed with criteria: we use them in textual criticism, life-of-Jesus-research, and intertextuality discourses, to name just a few influential areas. Criteria are meant to make the scholar’s life easier. In my experience, however, they often complicate discussions unnecessarily – sometimes even becoming the object of scholarly debate to an astonishing extent. Every year, dozens of dissertations are written that all compare different sets of criteria which have been suggested by more senior scholars to solve a specific problem, then selecting one of the sets or modifying it, and then applying it to some texts. Biographically, it made a big impression on me when during iSBL 2013 in St Andrews a doctoral student’s presentation on intertextuality basically consisted of a listing of different sets of criteria that had been suggested. When asked in the end, which one he would be choosing for his own textual analysis, he basically threw his hands up in the air, saying: “Well, if only there were a meta-criterion for assessing the validity of criteria…!”


Bayes’s theorem rather obviously offers just such a grid – and that is why it had become important for my research on counter-imperial echoes in Paul’s letters. I wanted to know: “In order to answer the question of whether there is such a subtext in Paul’s letters, can I simply – with Elliott and Wright but also Barclay – apply Hays’s criteria to these texts?”


As it turns out, considered against the background of Bayes’s theorem, Hays’s set of criteria is deeply problematic. Don’t get me wrong: It raises some really important questions. But some of these questions overlap. So we can’t just count answers. Moreover, half of the evidential weight that should influence the scale of our decision making with regard to whether the hypothesis of an echo is more probable than the alternative is actually contributed by one of the questions! That’s why I conclude:


“In light of all of this, it does not seem advisable to use Hays’s criteria as a methodologically sound way to identify echoes. To be sure, it is possible to come to well-founded conclusions on their basis … but in these cases it is not the set of criteria itself which guarantees the success, but their wise use, which attributes the correct significance to each of them.”
Hidden Criticism, pp. 42-43

(You can see read a shorter version of my assessment of the criteria here fore free.)


One is certainly free to judge this to be a rather modest insight. However, in light of the many “applications” of Hays’s criteria it still seems quite significant to me and I am glad to see that Joel White has recently also made an effort to do justice to it in the realm of identifying scriptural allusions (see his chapter in this volume).


So, to come to an interim conclusion, one of the two ways in that Bayes’s theorem can be important for biblical studies and in that it also plays a role in my argument in Hidden Criticism is the following:


Awareness of Bayes’s theorem can prevent us from using unsuitable sets of criteria when dealing with texts or at least tell us how the different criteria are to be assessed in relation to each other.


You might not be in need of such a framework because you are an excellent thinker anyway. Personally, it helped me immensely to have a tool at hand that helps me connect the dots between the individual criteria that are brought to a text by colleagues and myself. And when I think about the confusion of students, when they have to deal with “conflicting” criteria for establishing the relationship among textual variants and when I remember the confusion and sometimes even desperation of junior researchers in trying to navigate through the literature of those who came before them, I am tempted to believe that I am not alone in that situation.


3. Bayesian Reasoning Can Help to Prevent Argumentative Fallacies


To be sure, for the rest of Hidden Criticism the theorem isn’t that important. In fact, its only significance for the remainder of the book is that it offers a certain context for understanding what chapters 3-5 are doing, namely that they are scrutinizing the “prior-probability” (or, as I called it in order to sound less mathematic: “background plausibility”) of the counter-imperial echo-hypothesis. By contrast, chapter 6 is only offering some guidance for how to evaluate likelihoods (or: “explanatory potentials”). It was important to me back then to emphasise that I was not answering the question of “how probable is the hypothesis that Paul criticised the Roman empire in coded form?” From a Bayesian perspective it can’t be any different, of course, because an assessment of the posterior-probability would presuppose an assessment of likelihoods, which, in turn, would necessitate the analysis of specific texts in the framework of the discussed hypothesis and its alternatives. I didn’t see how I could do such an analysis as part of the book, which is why I wrote a second monograph that deals with a single text (2 Cor 2:14) to fill this gap. So I do think that Bayes’s theorem is important for Hidden Criticism as a whole in that it offers a context for understanding what the book aims (and does not aim) to achieve. Unfortunately, I had been convinced to put the word “plausibility” in the subtitle of the book, which I regret. Also, the description I provided the publisher with is indeed a bit misleading (“On the basis of insights from the philosophy of science, Christoph Heilig suggests several analytical steps for examining this paradigm.”)


To come back to the more general question behind this blog post, let me summarise this aspect of the value of Bayesian reasoning for biblical studies (and in a limited extent also for Hidden Criticism) as follows:


If we keep an eye on Bayes’s theorem, it can help us to gain a realistic perception of what we are actually contributing to a research question: Are we dealing with its background plausibility? Are we assessing its explanatory potential? Are we doing both and are we doing it also for competing hypotheses so that we can actually make statements about which hypothesis is most probably true?


Given also seems to recognise the value of this second aspect for he ends his criticism by saying:


“I [would not] dissuade historians from reflecting on Bayesian reasoning in a loosely analogical way while doing their work. It can and should make us more circumspect in our use of ‘intuitions’ (34).”

The most basic disagreement (perhaps the only real disagreement) between Given and me might be the value of this contribution of Bayesian reasoning. Part of the reason for why I wrote “Paul’s Triumph” was to show that the vast majority of the different proposals for Paul’s use of θριαμβεύειν in 2 Cor 2:14 did not only miss some evidence but systematically failed to incorporate huge areas of evidence. The authors of these articles and monographs usually picked either prior-probability or likelihood as their point of departure – without ever coming full-circle. There is of course nothing to be said against such contributions to scholarship – as long as they are not associated with claims about an overall-plausibility of the thesis under discussion (which then by definition renders the contribution incomplete).


Almost every journal issue has an article on a new suggested “background” for a biblical passage. (See, for example, here on “neglected points of background.”) Mostly, the argument runs like this:


“There is some archaeological or literary evidence from other sources that indicate that the author might have been in contact with a certain cultural phenomenon. Now that we know that the author was aware of that ritual or concept, it of course becomes much more plausible to assume that he also talked about it. And that’s why we should assume that an until now mysterious text actually is to be understood against that background.”


To me it is mind-blowing to observe how often such articles do not even mention the question of whether the actual wording of the text is indeed what we would expect if this background was indeed the one on the author’s mind. Without answer the following question that encapsulates the aspect of likelihood/explanatory potential no statement about whether or not the new proposal actually offers a better explanation for the text than previous alternatives makes any sense: “would we expect the specific wording if we presupposed a proposition with counter-imperial intent?” (Hidden Criticism, p. 140). Given has some very insightful comments on precisely this issue:


“I have used a similar test with students over the years that I call the rhetorical criterion. When a student proposes an interpretation of a contested passage, I ask if these are the words we would have expected to be used to convey that meaning. Asking this question often heads off eisegesis because the student immediately sees that if the author meant what the student proposed, the wording would likely be different. Heilig uses this sort of logic to great effect while reflecting on various proposed anti-imperial passages. Whether one agrees with his specific conclusions or not, the way he reasons about these passages is worthy of emulation.”

If you think this problem is only prevalent among students, I’d refer you again to my analysis in Paul’s Triumph. I have to insist: it is not.


And for that reason, Bayes’s theorem is indeed important for biblical studies. It is of course possible to take into account the evidence relevant for prior-probability and likelihood without knowing these categories. Indeed, many good historians do so all the time (as I also clearly say in Hidden Criticism, p. 27: “Every good historical enquiry will always pay attention to both factors.”). The problem is that I’ve come to the conclusion that more often than not we (and I certainly include myself here) as biblical scholars are not actually following this example well enough.


Note also that Bayes’s theorem tells us two things about Given’s “rhetorical criterion” that one might easily overlook (i.e. I assume Given is aware of these aspects of his criterion, but I don’t think it’s so far-fetched to imagine that someone might miss them):


First, it’s possible indeed that the rhetorical criterion might “favour” (the technical term for this constellation) a specific meaning but that a different interpretation is still more probable. The reason for this is that people sometimes indeed do what is unexpected. For example, let’s take the hypothesis that in the very last paragraph of Hidden Criticism I intended to encourage research on the question of whether Paul criticised the Roman Empire in the subtext of his letters. Would you have expected me to have written “we should… avoid this complex of questions (Hidden Criticism, p. 160)? Certainly not. But that’s exactly what I submitted to the publisher. Still, if you had read the book up to this point, your assessment of the semantics/pragmatics of this sentence wouldn’t be difficult at all, because you would already have a very clear idea about the background plausibilities of different interpretations of this sentence. (For more on this, see here.)


In other words: Given’s “rhetorical criterion” is a really helpful pedagogical tool but it offers a guide to plausible interpretations only in conjunctions with considering the aspect of background plausibility, i.e. the aspect that the aforementioned “background-studies” focus on exclusively (and unjustifiably so). If explanatory potential/likelihood is considered in isolation, there is a permanent danger of coming up with “false positives.”


You can find this kind of fallacy often associated with theses on matters of historical reconstruction that have defied an easy solution for a long time. For example, in the literature on the synoptic problem (or on problems of source criticism) you will find ever more complex solutions that aim at integrating the multitude of textual phenomena. Often, these proposals start with a rather simple core hypothesis that is over time supplemented with very many auxiliary hypotheses which need to be postulated to save the research program from the complexity of the empirical data. In the end of such a process you will necessarily have a hypothesis that will be capable of explaining each and every tiny detail of the textual tradition. However, the assertion “My theory explains all the evidence perfectly!” in itself is of little use, if this enormous explanatory potential is bought at the cost of an acceptable background plausibility.


Second, there is yet another danger for “false positives” associated with the rhetorical criterion. We’ve already discussed the possibility that the parameter of background plausibility is neglected. Another common mistake is to emphasise the good explanatory potential of a hypothesis but to overlook that there are alternative explanations, which also perform quite well with regard to the likelihood-aspect.


For example, I sometimes think that political pundits on TV also would profit a lot from some familiarity with Bayesian reasoning. Just in the last couple of days, I’ve heard so many comedians and commentators wonder why many people in the Trump orbit lied about contacts to the Russians if there was no collusion (and apparently there wasn’t). For two years, these people seem to have concentrated only on the explanatory potential of the collusion hypothesis: if the Trump team had colluded with the Russians, it is indeed quite probable that they would have lied about contacts with Russian officials (because people often attempt to cover-up criminal activities when confronted with them). However, apparently, it never crossed the mind of these individuals that (leaving aside prior-probabilities for the moment entirely) there might also be other scenarios in which lying about such contacts might be quite predictable (e.g. taking into account the human tendency to lie, private business dealings, and – last but not least – avoiding the appearance of collusion).


Third, the rhetorical criterion – the focus on likelihood/explanatory potential – can also lead to “false negatives” if used improperly. Again the problem might be the lack of comparison – which in this can lead to the false assumption that the only partial fulfilment of the rhetorical criterion could imply something negative for the overall probability of the hypothesis. That’s very problematic: Sometimes we should indeed accept a meaning even though there might have been much more common ways to express this thought. So the “rhetorical criterion” only works well if we apply it not just to a single possible meaning but to all the competing semantic hypotheses. For example, the word “ninnyhammer” might not exactly be our first prediction for how a speaker might introduce the concept of ‘idiot’ into a discourse – but it seems to me that it would be an even more awkward choice for communicating a compliment.


Thus, it seems to me that Given’s own “rhetorical criterion” powerfully demonstrates the usefulness of Bayes’s theorem for biblical studies. Sometimes, it completely suffices to ask the student whether the actual text in front of us is what “we would have expected to be used to convey that meaning.” Under different circumstances, such a shift of the perspective can, however, lead to wrong results, at least if the procedure is not specified by means of further guidelines. The art of good exegesis is to know, when this criterion in its simple form (i.e. when the focus on the explanatory potential of a single hypothesis) is actually productive. Being aware of Bayes’s theorem is one way of mastering this art.


Again, let me be very clear about these: the above considerations might be very intuitive to you. If so, congratulations. You obviously don’t need to print out Bayes’s theorem and attach it next to your monitor (plus, you’ve successfully beaten some very nasty tendencies of human reasoning, the prevalence of which has been well-established through psychological research). Others, like myself, might however benefit indeed from drawing more consciously on Bayes’s theorem when developing our arguments (at least for ourselves, whether it is productive to do so in writing is a different question, to be sure) because mistakes in these areas automatically imply rather fundamental problems for our conclusions.


So I think I largely agree with the rather limited role Given wants to assign to Bayes’s theorem for the process of biblical research. My point simply is that it comes into play at a very foundational level of the construction of exegetical arguments – and that disregard for the methodological principles as they can be developed on the basis of Bayes’s theorem are more often neglected by exegetes that we might want to assume.
 
• Godfrey, Neil (25 March 2012). "Richard Carrier interview". Vridar.
Richard Carrier is interviewed by John Loftus on “Debunking Christianity”and the topic is mythicism and the place of Bayes’ Theorem. If mathematics helps clarify the thinking of many then it can only be a good thing.
• Godfrey, Neil (10 October 2012). "Carrier: Understanding Bayesian History". Vridar.
• Widowfield, Tim (22 November 2016). "What's the Difference Between Frequentism and Bayesianism? (Part 1)". Vridar.
• Widowfield, Tim (6 December 2016). "What's the Difference Between Frequentism and Bayesianism? (Part 2)". Vridar.
• Widowfield, Tim (28 October 2019). "What's the Difference Between Frequentism and Bayesianism? (Part 3)". Vridar.
• Godfrey, Neil (10 July 2018). "How Historical Research Works (and does not work) -- even with Bayes'". Vridar.
Doesn’t Bayesian method involve maths? Yes, and it also involves the construction of hypotheses. I have over-simplified the options in the above scenario so that the options are black and white and the probabilities are pretty much near certainty, let’s say 99% if you like. But the discussion of whether all historical questions are mathematical is another question I can discuss in another post, as one reader has suggested I do.

• Carrier (18 October 2021). "How to Correctly Employ Bayesian Probabilities to Describe Historical Reasoning (Jesus Edition)". Richard Carrier Blogs.
By contrast to mythicism, for example, it is actually historicists who have to pile up ad hoc suppositions not in evidence to get there to be no interpolation in 1 Thessalonians, for example, or to convert an argument Paul explicitly says is allegorical from top to bottom to suddenly burp out an incongruous historical assertion that (it turns out) he then must never have explained the relevance of. Why is Jesus being born “of a woman” at all historically relevant to the argument is he making there? It had no role then in defining one’s status as a Jew or under covenant law (only patrilineage and circumcision could do that; and Paul doesn’t say this woman was Jewish anyway, so that can’t have been his point in mentioning it). Nor is this something one usually has to assert about anyone. Who isn’t born of a woman? Indeed, if Jesus was a historical person, why would there be any confusion as to whether he was? By ignoring the context (which perfectly explains this as referring to the allegorical “women” Paul explains we can all be born of, the corrupt sublunar world or the celestial order of the heavens), historicists end up making this text less explicable, indeed unintelligible, requiring them to pile on a bunch of ad hoc unevidenced suppositions about what Paul is then supposed to have meant. Mythicists have no need of those commitments. They need merely take the text, in context, exactly as written. As such, it entirely explains itself. No commitments required. In Bayesian terms, therefore, it is the historicist reading of this verse that is improbable, not the other way around. I nevertheless score it the other way around in my study (On the Historicity of Jesus, pp. 592-600), to account for the possibility I missed something (and thus I counted it as evidence for historicity!)—a generosity historicists would be horrified to reciprocate.

In the end, no matter what historical argumentation you are modeling so as to evaluate the merits of, lack of knowledge either way must always come to a 50/50 likelihood and thus have no effect on the final probability of any theory. If some piece of evidence is just as expected to look that way no matter which theory turned out to be true, then it simply makes no difference to the probability of either theory. You can’t just “assume” one thing over another instead—that would be a straightforward fallacy of circular argument, which will be captured in the invalid likelihood ratio you would then be asserting. Likewise, all your probabilities must be conditioned on background knowledge. So, if all the documents you need to test a claim are lost, you cannot argue from what was or was not in them; because you don’t have them. Accordingly no “conspiracy theory” is needed to explain why something you expect is not reflected in the record—if there is no record, then you don’t know what it would have reflected had it survived. And this includes background knowledge’s effect on prior expectations. If a document looks like a piece of faked nonsense, then the probability it is must derive from the frequency of all other documents that look that way being that way. You cannot ignore the evidence of past cases; nor try to derive a preferred frequency from a false reference class (like claiming the Gospels look like rational-historical biographies, when they explicitly don’t).

As such, Bayesian methods only quantify and thus describe, and therefore expose ordinary everyday reasoning about history, revealing when it is valid and sound, and when it is not. But to use it that way, you have to use it correctly. Just like any other method or logic.

• Carrier (26 February 2020). "Bayesian Statistics vs. Bayesian Epistemology". Richard Carrier Blogs.
I often encounter people who confuse “Bayesian statistics” with “Bayesian epistemology” or even just “Bayesian reasoning.” I’ll get critics writing me who will assert things like “Bayesian statistics can’t be used on historical data,” or “you can’t do philosophy with Bayesian statistics,” which are both false (there are rare occasions when indeed you can) and not answering anything I ever said. Because “Bayesian statistics” is not “Bayesian reasoning,” much less “Bayesian epistemology.” I have only been an advocate for the latter (though I also agree those scientists advocating the former are right). Yet many people will still take issues they have with Bayesian statistics as evidence against Bayesian reasoning or Bayesian epistemology. This needs to stop.

• Carrier (6 March 2019). "Hypothesis: Only Those Who Don't Really Understand Bayesianism Are Against It". Richard Carrier Blogs.
I’ve started to accumulate a lot of evidence that consistently supports a singular hypothesis: only those who don’t really understand Bayesianism are against it.
 
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