The failure of single-payer in Vermont

[Davka]

We win!

USA! USA! USA!

 

[AthenaAwakened]

If we weaned ourselves off war, we could afford socialized medicine, free education through grad school for all, doubling the the numbers of classroom and hospitals in this nation, triple the number of in class eduators and support staff while quadrupuling the salaries of both, get free wifi to everyone, solve homlessness

OR

buy me a  Birkin Bag

Either choice would be money well spent.

 

[SimpleDon]

If we weaned ourselves off war, we could afford socialized medicine, free education through grad school for all, doubling the the numbers of classroom and hospitals in this nation, triple the number of in class eduators and support staff while quadrupuling the salaries of both, get free wifi to everyone, solve homlessness

OR

buy me a  Birkin Bag

Either choice would be money well spent.

What we have now is more expensive than any other system that we could have.

For forty years we have been obsessed with putting ever increasing amounts of money to the already wealthy to increase the money available for investment. What is happening now is that the excess fiscal capital that we have built up is far in excess of what our existing industries need or can use. This excess money has been trying to get into sectors like health care and education where for profit business model is not appropriate.

 

[SimpleDon]

Where are our free market enthusiasts to defend for profit private enterprise? To tell us that the free enterprise system would provide us with the best and lowest cost health care if it wasn't constrained by all of the government regulations or if not for all of the freeloaders getting rich by suing doctors and hospitals? Is there no conviction among the right that they are right?

 

[NobleSavage]

Where are our free market enthusiasts to defend for profit private enterprise? To tell us that the free enterprise system would provide us with the best and lowest cost health care if it wasn't constrained by all of the government regulations or if not for all of the freeloaders getting rich by suing doctors and hospitals? Is there no conviction among the right that they are right?

Why would they defend it? We don't have free market health care.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How is this a failure of a single payer system? It is a failure of enacting one. There is a notable difference.

Where are our free market enthusiasts to defend for profit private enterprise? To tell us that the free enterprise system would provide us with the best and lowest cost health care if it wasn't constrained by all of the government regulations or if not for all of the freeloaders getting rich by suing doctors and hospitals? Is there no conviction among the right that they are right?

Why would they defend it? We don't have free market health care.

Oy! There is no such thing as a "free market". It is like an ideal gas. It can't actually exist in the real world. It is a naive capitalistic utopian ideal that is inherently flawed due to it being completely dependent on all people being fair with one another.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't see how we could be doing it wrong when we really haven't done it all.

What a ridiculous thing to say. About one half of the medical care in the US is paid for by single payer. Medicare, Medicaid, VA and TriCare.

Those are 4 payers not one. And about half is not a whole.

 

[NobleSavage]

How is this a failure of a single payer system? It is a failure of enacting one. There is a notable difference.

Why would they defend it? We don't have free market health care.

Oy! There is no such thing as a "free market". It is like an ideal gas. It can't actually exist in the real world. It is a naive capitalistic utopian ideal that is inherently flawed due to it being completely dependent on all people being fair with one another.

I'm not an idealist by any stretch. And I hope you don't think I'm defending them. Socialists play the same game. If had a pure free market system it probably would work well, except for the people who die because they don't have enough money. The veterinary medicine system works well.

 

[SimpleDon]

What a ridiculous thing to say. About one half of the medical care in the US is paid for by single payer. Medicare, Medicaid, VA and TriCare.

Those are 4 payers not one. And about half is not a whole.

They are single payers for the population that they cover, the aged, the disabled, the poor, veterans and the military.

The post that I responded to said that we have never done single payer. We have.

Yes, half is not a whole. A non-sequitur. I never said that it is a whole.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How is this a failure of a single payer system? It is a failure of enacting one. There is a notable difference.
Oy! There is no such thing as a "free market". It is like an ideal gas. It can't actually exist in the real world. It is a naive capitalistic utopian ideal that is inherently flawed due to it being completely dependent on all people being fair with one another.

I'm not an idealist by any stretch. And I hope you don't think I'm defending them. Socialists play the same game.

There was socialist back in the 10's or 20's that once said ~"There is something inherent in the human spirit that makes our cause a pathetic joke." The free market is likewise..

If had a pure free market system it probably would work well...

And if perpetual motion machines were possible, we'd save a ton on gasoline expenses.

The veterinary medicine system works well.

So does our human medical system. The only problem is when you really really have to use it.

 

[SimpleDon]

Where are our free market enthusiasts to defend for profit private enterprise? To tell us that the free enterprise system would provide us with the best and lowest cost health care if it wasn't constrained by all of the government regulations or if not for all of the freeloaders getting rich by suing doctors and hospitals? Is there no conviction among the right that they are right?

Why would they defend it? We don't have free market health care.

Ah, the yes, the for profit health care delivery model is a complete cost disaster unless it is completely and totally free, without any regulation and without any any lawsuits. The latter would require a lot of regulation to accomplish in which case it would violate the former. But it is all part of the fantasy anyway.

 

[SimpleDon]

How is this a failure of a single payer system? It is a failure of enacting one. There is a notable difference.
Oy! There is no such thing as a "free market". It is like an ideal gas. It can't actually exist in the real world. It is a naive capitalistic utopian ideal that is inherently flawed due to it being completely dependent on all people being fair with one another.

I'm not an idealist by any stretch. And I hope you don't think I'm defending them. Socialists play the same game. If had a pure free market system it probably would work well, except for the people who die because they don't have enough money. The veterinary medicine system works well.

It is interesting that you are willing to let people die to have a health system that works well. There are a lot of people who believe that letting people die to be indicative of a really poor health care system.

And the keystone of the veterinary system is to intentionally kill those whose treatment is too expensive.

 

[NobleSavage]

I'm not an idealist by any stretch. And I hope you don't think I'm defending them. Socialists play the same game. If had a pure free market system it probably would work well, except for the people who die because they don't have enough money. The veterinary medicine system works well.

It is interesting that you are willing to let people die to have a health system that works well. There are a lot of people who believe that letting people die to be indicative of a really poor health care system.

And the keystone of the veterinary system is to intentionally kill those whose treatment is too expensive.

I'm not. Did you not read my post?

 

[NobleSavage]

This video is a good watch:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2198039605/

 

[George S]

This video is a good watch:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2198039605/

A private group of physicians saw how to deliver healthcare to everyone at lower cost. This is private enterprise in action. Well done.

 

[Davka]

Private or public, the fix for America's health care needs to include getting the insurance companies the hell out of the way.

 

[TV and credit cards]

This video is a good watch:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2198039605/

A private group of physicians saw how to deliver healthcare to everyone at lower cost. This is private enterprise in action. Well done.

Very well done because their priority is healthcare. But what to do with those who would be motivated by profit?
Attitude adjustment.

 

[laughing dog]

Those are 4 payers not one. And about half is not a whole.

They are single payers for the population that they cover, the aged, the disabled, the poor, veterans and the military.

But that standard so is any insurer.

The post that I responded to said that we have never done single payer. We have.

Yes, half is not a whole. A non-sequitur. I never said that it is a whole.

You must be sooo proud of your tautological point.

 

[laughing dog]

And the keystone of the veterinary system is to intentionally kill those whose treatment is too expensive.

Utter nonsense. The veterinary system legally permits euthanasia. Our human health care system allows it sub rosa.

 

[SimpleDon]

I'm not an idealist by any stretch. And I hope you don't think I'm defending them. Socialists play the same game. If had a pure free market system it probably would work well, except for the people who die because they don't have enough money. The veterinary medicine system works well.

It is interesting that you are willing to let people die to have a health system that works well. There are a lot of people who believe that letting people die to be indicative of a really poor health care system.

And the keystone of the veterinary system is to intentionally kill those whose treatment is too expensive.

I think that most people here know that I have ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease. I am capable of paying for my own care but I am covered by both Medicare because I am disabled and I am covered by the VA because ALS is considered to be a service related condition. Between the two I probably don't have to pay for any of my care.

And the costs of my care are large now and will only increase in the future. I will never get better. I will never go back to work. I do a little amount of consulting for my old company and a little programming for my son. maybe 20,000 dollars a year, (half of which I pay in taxes because the highest effective individual tax rate that the US collects is on Social Security recipients that earn more than 75,000 dollars a year, which I do because of my private disability insurance.)

If I get a cold or the flu it is life threatening and I go into the hospital to prevent pneumonia, the number one killer of ALS patients. (Number 2 is suicide.) Say an average of six days in the hospital and an average of say 2,000 dollars a day, guessing, paid by Medicare, followed by four weeks of home nursing and respiration therapy. Say another 4,000 dollars. I do this an average of twice a year.

I currently pay for a private nurse five days a week. It costs me about a thousand dollars a week. My lawyer tells me that I could get Medicaid to pay for at least half of that if I were to go through a process of impoverishment, basically by giving all of my assets away. I have done this, giving everything except my retirement account to my wife, my children and my granddaughter. But I can't go so far as to apply for Medicaid.

The average medical costs for the last year of an ALS patient's life was 250,000 dollars a year seven years ago, the last number that I know. It is surely close to 300,000 dollars a year by now.

What role do profits pay in my care? Am I one of those who you are willing to let die rather than waste all of that money on? What is my value to society? I killed for this country. Does that mean that I deserve to live longer than someone who didn't kill for this country? Why?