The fascist mindset

[DrZoidberg]

I'm pretty sure the right says the exact same thing. Both the left and right say they're for freedom. Both are for increased freedom in their own way.

I'd have to see who frequents nude beaches more, conservatives or liberals. Then I'll know for sure.

Non sequitur. What's important isn't how much they frequent nude beaches but how much they support people in general for having the right to go to nude beaches. That's what tolerance is about. Being fine with other people disagreeing with them.

One can be extremely committed to civil rights, even call them a hardcore civil rights activist who gets in your face. But big fucking deal. In the end they want to increase voter participation. The right wants no such action. That's the difference, not whether they have an attitude.

This has nothing to do with either tolerance or being pro democracy. The right are typically against government manipulation in order to get people to do anything. The right tend to be for self empowerment. Ie, if a person wants to participate in the democracy he should be allowed to pursue it by their own accord. That's right wing freedom

 

[untermensche]

How are they on the left?

The left is about increasing democracy. Increasing participation. Reducing authoritarian control.

And tolerance goes hand in hand with this.

How are they on the left?

I'm pretty sure the right says the exact same thing. Both the left and right say they're for freedom. Both are for increased freedom in their own way.

No the right explicitly says it is against democracy (rule by the mob) and works to lessen it.

 

[untermensche]

Even leftist dictators find your statement amusingly naive.

You don't know the difference between a dictator and an elected leader.

It is pure ignorance to say that Stalin was on the left based merely on lip service.

He was a brutal and violent totalitarian dictator.

He had no connection to the left beyond his rhetoric. Which I guess you take at face value since he was such an honorable guy.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm pretty sure the right says the exact same thing. Both the left and right say they're for freedom. Both are for increased freedom in their own way.

No the right explicitly says it is against democracy (rule by the mob) and works to lessen it.

I think you'll have to back that up. Because my impression of the right is clearly way different than yours.

 

[fast]

Have there been any good dictators? By good, I mean bad but only mildly so.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

How are they on the left?
The left is about increasing democracy. Increasing participation. Reducing authoritarian control

Even leftist dictators find your statement amusingly naive.

Do you seriously believe that "leftism" leads to these kinds of dictators? What's your evidence that it does?

 

[untermensche]

No the right explicitly says it is against democracy (rule by the mob) and works to lessen it.

I think you'll have to back that up. Because my impression of the right is clearly way different than yours.

I've heard it a million times from the right.

About the dangers of mob rule and how we need to keep democracy in check to prevent this.

I don't know where you've been living.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think you'll have to back that up. Because my impression of the right is clearly way different than yours.

I've heard it a million times from the right.

About the dangers of mob rule and how we need to keep democracy in check to prevent this.

I don't know where you've been living.

Sure, fringe loons on the extreme right. But that's not only what I'm talking about. I'm talking about things like Republicans. They're also on the right.

 

[untermensche]

I've heard it a million times from the right.

About the dangers of mob rule and how we need to keep democracy in check to prevent this.

I don't know where you've been living.

Sure, fringe loons on the extreme right. But that's not only what I'm talking about. I'm talking about things like Republicans. They're also on the right.

Where are they supporting increased democratic control?

Sure they talk about democracy when they want to invade somebody.

But they also talk about the mob and how democracy is just a way for the poor to steal from the rich.

And they insist the US is not a democracy. It is a republic.

As if republics can't be democratic.

 

[arkirk]

The left is about tolerance.

You funny, unter! All you have to do is go to a college campus to disabuse yourself of that notion.

Are you saying these guys are "leftists" or "multiculturalists." They look like perhaps rich college kids drinking beer and basking in their newfound testosterone....having nothing at all to do with politics. Of course you couldn't ever see it that way because you cannot TOLERATE anything you can't explain.

 

[SimpleDon]

The left is about tolerance.

It is the only place where tolerance is even talked about.

Intolerance may not be from the right but it is most definitely not from the left and to say it is is merely to not know what the left is.

Nah. I think that's the No True Scotsman Fallacy. You just don't identify with the intolerant leftists. The right-left dichotomy has nothing to do with tolerance. Both sides are all over the map. Leftists can be extremely intolerant. The political correctness movement is all left, and all extremely intolerant.

I think the right often talks about tolerance. But their stance is so entrenched and unified that they don't come across as being aware of it. Good luck trying to get anybody on the American right to support infringements on free press. That is evidence of tolerance.

Yes, the left is more intolerant by definition. The right-left dichotomy is based on attitudes about change, not on tolerance or intolerance.

The right puts a high value on tradition and the existing social institutions like religion to solve the problems that appear in society. They have a low tolerance for changing the institutions that they put their trust in.

The left sees change in society and in its institutions as the solution for problems which they view as created by those institutions. They have a low tolerance for tradition.

Obviously neither can be right, as in correct, about every issue. Also, no one is consistently conservative or liberal on every issue.

The US is overwhelmingly conservative right now. This is due to many factors.

The electorate in the US is getting older, the young are more liberal, as people age they usually become more conservative.

The rate of change in other aspects of society, the arts, technology, industry, relationships, etc., is accelerating. Politics is one of the few areas in which people feel like they have some control, that they can put the brakes on the rate of change.

And people become more conservative as they become more fearful. We are afraid of terrorism, spreading fear is the main aim of terrorism. And people fear the future. My generation of the baby boomers is the first generation seeing our children and grandchildren facing a worse life than we have had and most of us don't know why.

And the world has become much more complex. As a result more people on both the left and the right increasingly depend on ideologies to simplify the complexity, "government is the problem" or "corporations are the problem", for example. People don't consider issues on the merits of the issue, they instead try to apply their ideology to it as a short cut to actually understanding it.

 

[arkirk]

I think we have been diverted from the true explanation of what a fascist is. It is a person who thinks that certain superior people are on this earth to rule society. Only their great leadership will keep us on the right track. Fascists always create conditions that lead to a security environment and to a government that makes its decisions in private, with discussions only happening between those authorized to discuss the tactics the government will resort to to enforce its secretly derived policies. Knowing your power relies on secrecy and lying at times is part of the mantra of Fascism. Leaders in the end represent their deeply held convictions...those often they dare not discuss but always at the base of their policies is the notion: "Only those who can be trusted to obey me can be trusted with knowledge of what I do." Lying is the outcome of Fascist beliefs.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Sure, fringe loons on the extreme right. But that's not only what I'm talking about. I'm talking about things like Republicans. They're also on the right.

Where are they supporting increased democratic control?

Sure they talk about democracy when they want to invade somebody.

But they also talk about the mob and how democracy is just a way for the poor to steal from the rich.

And they insist the US is not a democracy. It is a republic.

As if republics can't be democratic.

I think your case for the right being less for democracy than the left is pretty weak. I think the difference is what democracy is for.

For the right democracy is about protection from tyranny. But they see no need to lift people out of poverty. For the right it messes up incentives. Makes people lazy and greedy. But they still want freedom for all. They see the lack of welfare as a good thing for humanity.

I think you've fundamentaly misread the right.

 

[untermensche]

I think we have been diverted from the true explanation of what a fascist is. It is a person who thinks that certain superior people are on this earth to rule society. Only their great leadership will keep us on the right track. Fascists always create conditions that lead to a security environment and to a government that makes its decisions in private, with discussions only happening between those authorized to discuss the tactics the government will resort to to enforce its secretly derived policies. Knowing your power relies on secrecy and lying at times is part of the mantra of Fascism. Leaders in the end represent their deeply held convictions...those often they dare not discuss but always at the base of their policies is the notion: "Only those who can be trusted to obey me can be trusted with knowledge of what I do." Lying is the outcome of Fascist beliefs.

Fascism is really just the intermingling of government with corporations.

Since corporations are dictatorial by nature you really can't have this intermingling without fascism of some kind.

 

[untermensche]

Where are they supporting increased democratic control?

Sure they talk about democracy when they want to invade somebody.

But they also talk about the mob and how democracy is just a way for the poor to steal from the rich.

And they insist the US is not a democracy. It is a republic.

As if republics can't be democratic.

I think your case for the right being less for democracy than the left is pretty weak. I think the difference is what democracy is for.

For the right democracy is about protection from tyranny. But they see no need to lift people out of poverty. For the right it messes up incentives. Makes people lazy and greedy. But they still want freedom for all. They see the lack of welfare as a good thing for humanity.

I think you've fundamentaly misread the right.

The right loves tyranny. They love the corporation. As tyrannical an institution as ever existed.

They love rule by the rich.

They have no use for democracy unless it can be corrupted by money.

 

[arkirk]

Where are they supporting increased democratic control?

Sure they talk about democracy when they want to invade somebody.

But they also talk about the mob and how democracy is just a way for the poor to steal from the rich.

And they insist the US is not a democracy. It is a republic.

As if republics can't be democratic.

I think your case for the right being less for democracy than the left is pretty weak. I think the difference is what democracy is for.

For the right democracy is about protection from tyranny. But they see no need to lift people out of poverty. For the right it messes up incentives. Makes people lazy and greedy. But they still want freedom for all. They see the lack of welfare as a good thing for humanity.

I think you've fundamentaly misread the right.

I don't think it is a good use of time to characterize these two scoundrels as either right or left: Clinton/Trump.

It is not tyranny to demand law and order, to attempt to prohibit murder and torture and kidnap and abandonment of needy citizens. Clinton and Trump are both amoral and simply in the game for self aggrandizement. Bernie has made Clinton spout a bunch of stuff she absolutely never before supported and I am sure she is right now engineering her U turn out of non support of TPP and XL. Both of the people look at the world through the looking glass darkly. Neither should be anywhere near the fulcrum of power in our country. There is nothing wrong with wanting to see everybody fed, clothed, housed, educated, and perhaps required to vote. Right or left...has lost its meaning. Scoundrel should be the new party for Clinton (both of them) and Trump, and any number of recent past presidents. Our system is broken and needs to be fixed. We could start by taking the left and the right out of it and dealing with policies on the basis of the needs of all our people.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

You know what stops Clinton from doing a U-turn? A democratic senate. She can't implement right wing policies if she's negotiating with Sanders and Warren to implement those policies.

 

[untermensche]

You know what stops Clinton from doing a U-turn? A democratic senate. She can't implement right wing policies if she's negotiating with Sanders and Warren to implement those policies.

Yes. Let's all save her from herself.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

You know what stops Clinton from doing a U-turn? A democratic senate. She can't implement right wing policies if she's negotiating with Sanders and Warren to implement those policies.

Yes. Let's all save her from herself.

The second option is a Trump presidency. There is no third option. Crying about doesn't change that.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I'd have to see who frequents nude beaches more, conservatives or liberals. Then I'll know for sure.

Non sequitur. What's important isn't how much they frequent nude beaches but how much they support people in general for having the right to go to nude beaches. That's what tolerance is about. Being fine with other people disagreeing with them.

One can be extremely committed to civil rights, even call them a hardcore civil rights activist who gets in your face. But big fucking deal. In the end they want to increase voter participation. The right wants no such action. That's the difference, not whether they have an attitude.

This has nothing to do with either tolerance or being pro democracy. The right are typically against government manipulation in order to get people to do anything. The right tend to be for self empowerment. Ie, if a person wants to participate in the democracy he should be allowed to pursue it by their own accord. That's right wing freedom

I think you are confusing tolerance and acceptance. The people in the U.S. who opposed civil rights - and still do - are intolerant right wingers. They're certainly for self empowerment so long as it isn't those darkies, or those women who should be home cooking and making babies, so long as it isn't these kind of people that are being empowered. Eventually they may need to tolerate a change in the status quo but they will never accept it.