The Four Freedoms

[Loren Pechtel]

No working society can have freedom from want. There has to be some incentive to be productive.

And the only incentive is want?

Or is that just YOUR only incentive?

It's everyone's incentive. Nothing gets done without someone wanting it for some reason.

 

[ksen]

The latter two would be absurd if they had anything to with the topic of conversation. Given that they don't, they're actually a lot less absurd.

"Freedom from want" means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants. It means taking actions to ensure that your citizens aren't dying of starvation in the middle of the streets, not making sure they all have the new iWatch.

"Freedom from fear" means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor. It refers to not having to worry about invading armies, not ensuring that government agents are around to check out your bathroom and squish any spiders before you go in there.

No working society can have freedom from want. There has to be some incentive to be productive.

Unless you're rich. Then the only incentive to be productive is more money, right?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

And the only incentive is want?

Or is that just YOUR only incentive?

It's everyone's incentive. Nothing gets done without someone wanting it for some reason.

Some reason is NOT the same as THE ONLY reason. Is want the ONLY incentive (want being defined as impoverishment)?

 

[Ford]

No working society can have freedom from want. There has to be some incentive to be productive.

Unless you're rich. Then the only incentive to be productive is more money, right?

Well now that's just crazy talk.

See, the people who are the least free from want are the driving force behind our entire society! If we just make sure that poor folks have as little "freedom from want" as possible, they will get with the program and become productive!

Economic pressure is a helluva motivator, since as I said earlier the number of small businessmen emerging from soup kitchens and homeless shelters is quite inspiring.


And what about these idle rich? Bill Gates is clearly free from want, as are George Soros, Mark Cuban, and even Donald J. Trump. Clearly, removing the desperate economic pressure experienced by those at the bottom have made these folks lazy and slothful, right?


I mean, if you've got a couple billion lying around, you want for nothing. If the "want = motivation" equation were true, then these folks who have been freed from want wouldn't be doing a goddamned thing.

 

[dismal]

,

It's everyone's incentive. Nothing gets done without someone wanting it for some reason.

Some reason is NOT the same as THE ONLY reason. Is want the ONLY incentive (want being defined as impoverishment)?

Historically the two main incentives for getting people to produce more of the things that free us all from want are paying them enough that they consider it in their interest to do it or using force or threat of force against them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's everyone's incentive. Nothing gets done without someone wanting it for some reason.

Some reason is NOT the same as THE ONLY reason. Is want the ONLY incentive (want being defined as impoverishment)?

But now you're trying to move the goalposts.

Want doesn't only mean impoverishment.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Some reason is NOT the same as THE ONLY reason. Is want the ONLY incentive (want being defined as impoverishment)?

But now you're trying to move the goalposts.doesn

Want doesn't only mean impoverishment.

No it doesn't, but in the case of the OP, it does.

But you already knew that. Why you try to pretend to be slow, I have no idea.

 

[Ford]

Some reason is NOT the same as THE ONLY reason. Is want the ONLY incentive (want being defined as impoverishment)?

But now you're trying to move the goalposts.

Want doesn't only mean impoverishment.

Keeping people out of poverty does not equal giving them a comfortable living at taxpayer expense.

"Freedom from want" in the context Roosevelt was talking about doesn't mean everyone gets a nice house, a nice car, all the food they can eat, and a brand new wardrobe all for free.

It means (and I think you know this) that there is a net below to catch you when you fall. If you lose your job you won't starve. If you get sick you won't die for lack of funds to pay your medical bills. If you lose everything in some catastrophe you won't wind up living on the street. It is a floor below which no one in our society should sink. Yet despite living in the richest, most powerful country in the world, there are still millions who live in poverty. An embarrassing number of homeless people. And it is getting worse, not better.


A few months back, I had the TV on in the background and one of those commercials came on asking for money. You know the ones "for just the cost of a cup of coffee a day, you can help."

But it wasn't asking for money to feed starving children in Africa. It was a commercial for a charity that helps homeless Veterans. I was astonished. Not that there's a charity that helps homeless Vets...that's a noble cause...but that there has to be a charity at all. These people should be taken care of on the taxpayers' dime because they earned it.

We should be ashamed that this sort of thing is happening, but the libertarian crowd says "too bad, so sad...you should have pulled yourself up by your bootstraps once you stopped wearing the boots!"

 

[arkirk]

Some reason is NOT the same as THE ONLY reason. Is want the ONLY incentive (want being defined as impoverishment)?

But now you're trying to move the goalposts.

Want doesn't only mean impoverishment.

Want as a noun ONLY MEANS POVERTY OR DEPRIVATION. Want as a verb has nothing to do with what the four freedoms were discussing. You keep diverting our attention from the fact that freedom from want is one hell of a good idea.

 

[lpetrich]

Why is there such a high value placed on having to work all the time?

Work for the sake of work -- some people consider that a virtue. I picture such people digging holes and filling them up again, just to seem virtuous.

I'm just saying that being the recipient of government aid is often automatically given a negative connotation of laziness.

While nobody ever says that of being the recipient of inherited wealth and other non-government handouts. Yes, inheritance is a handout.

You can't seem to get past the idea that only government can do such things as feed the hungry.

Let's put what AA is saying in terms that you might understand. Let's consider the military and the police. They provide the service of protection. skepticalbip, according to your argument, anyone who does not want them disbanded "can't seem to get past the idea that only government can do such things as protect people."

If everyone who claimed to "really care" did take personal action then there would be little of the problem left.

skepticalbip, did you work out the numbers? Applying that to the military and the police, this means that everybody who "really cared" about being protected would organize vigilante gangs and create guard and mercenary businesses, and thus would make government military and police forces unnecessary.

And what about these idle rich? Bill Gates is clearly free from want, as are George Soros, Mark Cuban, and even Donald J. Trump. Clearly, removing the desperate economic pressure experienced by those at the bottom have made these folks lazy and slothful, right?

Yes, their great wealth has corrupted them. Since they can live off of their wealth without ever having to work, their wealth is thus a handout to themselves, and it is thus morally corrupting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But now you're trying to move the goalposts.

Want doesn't only mean impoverishment.

Want as a noun ONLY MEANS POVERTY OR DEPRIVATION. Want as a verb has nothing to do with what the four freedoms were discussing. You keep diverting our attention from the fact that freedom from want is one hell of a good idea.

You can want things other than a lack of poverty.

You'll find an awful lot of men that want to sleep with Kate Upton or Scarlett Johansson.

Are you saying they don't want to?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Want as a noun ONLY MEANS POVERTY OR DEPRIVATION. Want as a verb has nothing to do with what the four freedoms were discussing. You keep diverting our attention from the fact that freedom from want is one hell of a good idea.

You can want things other than a lack of poverty.

You'll find an awful lot of men that want to sleep with Kate Upton or Scarlett Johansson.

Are you saying they don't want to?

You are PRICELESS, Loren.
You pretend to miss the FIRST SENTENCE of arkirk's post.

Want as a noun ONLY MEANS POVERTY OR DEPRIVATION

What is it?

If you don't see it, or won't admit to seeing it, no one else will?
Or maybe you think people will forget they saw it?

You can hang on to wrong all day long. It won't turn right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You can want things other than a lack of poverty.

You'll find an awful lot of men that want to sleep with Kate Upton or Scarlett Johansson.

Are you saying they don't want to?

You are PRICELESS, Loren.
You pretend to miss the FIRST SENTENCE of arkirk's post.

Want as a noun ONLY MEANS POVERTY OR DEPRIVATION

What is it?

If you don't see it, or won't admit to seeing it, no one else will?
Or maybe you think people will forget they saw it?

You can hang on to wrong all day long. It won't turn right.

The original didn't specify "noun". You're moving the goalposts.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

You are PRICELESS, Loren.
You pretend to miss the FIRST SENTENCE of arkirk's post.

Want as a noun ONLY MEANS POVERTY OR DEPRIVATION

What is it?

If you don't see it, or won't admit to seeing it, no one else will?
Or maybe you think people will forget they saw it?

You can hang on to wrong all day long. It won't turn right.

The original didn't specify "noun". You're moving the goalposts.

No, your side tried to move the goal post.

Your side FAILED,

AGAIN.
Tell me Loren, what is the speech, referenced in the OP, would lead you to believe that want meant anything other than POVERTY OR DEPRIVATION?

 

[ronburgundy]

The 4 don't have the same status in terms of things plausibly under government control. Free speech and free worship merely refer to government not using force to prohibit these things, and ensuring that citizens don't use force against other citizens to prohibit these things. That is something government can do (or avoid doing).

Wants and fears are highly subjective, variable, unpredictable, and often uncontrollable states of mind. Neither the government nor anyone can ensure that no other person lacks the subjective state of mind of want or fear. If we limit the meaning of "want" to basic survival needs common to all people, then that is something very different, but even then it is only a government flush with resources that is capable of preventing all its people from having such needs. Something similar applies to fears. In contrast, ensuring speech and worship that is free from government coercion does not require massive resources but just the opposite, it requires not spending resources to engage in such coercion. Not to mention, many people have wants and fears that can only be eliminated by harming or killing other people. Should we free them of those wants and fears?

 

[fromderinside]

Comparing surveys and interviews conducted before and after the sidewalks, weight is down, Chronic conditions have eased, and something else happened. People are talking to one another, getting to know each other. People who only walked to their garage are now walking around the neighborhood, meeting their neighbors and not just the ones that have always been there. People across the board report that they have seen and experienced better relations across demographics. And since they put two police officers in shorts and tees shirts and put them on bikes, people are even liking the police better.

Let's hope they like liberals. If this keeps up soon they'll be adding parks, walking trials, child care centers, performing venues and the like. Who knows they may even become like Boston, Portland, Eugene, or Santa Monica. Horrors.