The GI bill and black veterans.

[bleubird]

My father came home from WW2,started a family,and bought a house with a Federally backed loan.He went to night school as he worked to become machinist.
Had he been a black vet he would not have gotten this step up.
http://www.nber.org/digest/dec02/w9044.html
Housing loans were controlled by state and local governments.Blacks could only get loans to buy in black neighborhoods.
Thus,ghettos seemed to have been created by the housing authority.
And covenants were put in deeds to prohibit the sale of these homes to blacks.
Thoughts?
http://www.epi.org/people/richard-rothstein/

 

[laughing dog]

You are mistaken - it was not racism, but the SES of those vets that caused their rejections.

 

[bleubird]

http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/senior-executive-service/
This?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are mistaken - it was not racism, but the SES of those vets that caused their rejections.

Back then there was a lot of racism. It's only in the time after affirmative action that racism ceased to be an important factor.

 

[bleubird]

You are mistaken - it was not racism, but the SES of those vets that caused their rejections.

Back then there was a lot of racism. It's only in the time after affirmative action that racism ceased to be an important factor.

Sarcasm.right?

 

[RavenSky]

You are mistaken - it was not racism, but the SES of those vets that caused their rejections.

Back then there was a lot of racism. It's only in the time after affirmative action that racism ceased to be an important factor.

You mean... after the deck was stacked.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

You are mistaken - it was not racism, but the SES of those vets that caused their rejections.

Back then there was a lot of racism. It's only in the time after affirmative action that racism ceased to be an important factor.

Where did the racism go, Loren? Did AA run racism out of town? Is that what you are saying?

 

[fast]

My father came home from WW2,started a family,and bought a house with a Federally backed loan.He went to night school as he worked to become machinist.
Had he been a black vet he would not have gotten this step up.
http://www.nber.org/digest/dec02/w9044.html

And it has nothing to do with either the GI bill or had he been a black veteran.

If I hand $10 to everyone (regardless of race) walking into my foot-traffic-only community so they can eat, and if a smaller percentage of restaurants in the Southern end cater to blacks, then maybe technically I have in some way exasperated some gap, but if that isn't the most underhanded, twisted, sideways shift blaming articulation of who is to blame, I don't know what is.

Real slick there eh fast, you prejudice little boy. You knew what would happen didn't you? You intentionally gave whites an unfair advantage because you knew the result would cause a disparity, and you did it by (and I got to give you a hand to it), you did it with blinders on--race neutral in your actions.

A defense regarding the GI bill: More people are being helped (both white and black) in both areas (north and south). Yes, more whites than blacks in the south, but more nevertheless. This "exasperates" the gap, but it helps everyone more than it would have otherwise, but because the effect is such that there is a widening gap does not mean he wouldn't have gotten this step up. What's more, the point is to help everyone regardless of race, not control the effect on some racial disparity gap (gap, I say).

If you are making race-neutral decisions, you are to be blamed for statistical racial effects?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

My father came home from WW2,started a family,and bought a house with a Federally backed loan.He went to night school as he worked to become machinist.
Had he been a black vet he would not have gotten this step up.
http://www.nber.org/digest/dec02/w9044.html

And it has nothing to do with either the GI bill or had he been a black veteran.

If I hand $10 to everyone (regardless of race) walking into my foot-traffic-only community so they can eat, and if a smaller percentage of restaurants in the Southern end cater to blacks, then maybe technically I have in some way exasperated some gap, but if that isn't the most underhanded, twisted, sideways shift blaming articulation of who is to blame, I don't know what is.

Real slick there eh fast, you prejudice little boy. You knew what would happen didn't you? You intentionally gave whites an unfair advantage because you knew the result would cause a disparity, and you did it by (and I got to give you a hand to it), you did it with blinders on--race neutral in your actions.

A defense regarding the GI bill: More people are being helped (both white and black) in both areas (north and south). Yes, more whites than blacks in the south, but more nevertheless. This "exasperates" the gap, but it helps everyone more than it would have otherwise, but because the effect is such that there is a widening gap does not mean he wouldn't have gotten this step up. What's more, the point is to help everyone regardless of race, not control the effect on some racial disparity gap (gap, I say).

If you are making race-neutral decisions, you are to be blamed for statistical racial effects?

Are you saying that black vets after WWII were not denied their rightful GI Bill benefits?

 

[fast]

And it has nothing to do with either the GI bill or had he been a black veteran.

If I hand $10 to everyone (regardless of race) walking into my foot-traffic-only community so they can eat, and if a smaller percentage of restaurants in the Southern end cater to blacks, then maybe technically I have in some way exasperated some gap, but if that isn't the most underhanded, twisted, sideways shift blaming articulation of who is to blame, I don't know what is.

Real slick there eh fast, you prejudice little boy. You knew what would happen didn't you? You intentionally gave whites an unfair advantage because you knew the result would cause a disparity, and you did it by (and I got to give you a hand to it), you did it with blinders on--race neutral in your actions.

A defense regarding the GI bill: More people are being helped (both white and black) in both areas (north and south). Yes, more whites than blacks in the south, but more nevertheless. This "exasperates" the gap, but it helps everyone more than it would have otherwise, but because the effect is such that there is a widening gap does not mean he wouldn't have gotten this step up. What's more, the point is to help everyone regardless of race, not control the effect on some racial disparity gap (gap, I say).

If you are making race-neutral decisions, you are to be blamed for statistical racial effects?

Are you saying that black vets after WWII were not denied their rightful GI Bill benefits?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm not sure why that is even (and now) brought up--even if true.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Are you saying that black vets after WWII were not denied their rightful GI Bill benefits?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm not sure why that is even (and now) brought up--even if true.

So you doubt that black vets after WWII were discriminated against with regards to their GI Bill benefits?

I am not sure i understand what your beef is with the OP

 

[Horatio Parker]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm not sure why that is even (and now) brought up--even if true.

So you doubt that black vets after WWII were discriminated against with regards to their GI Bill benefits?

I am not sure i understand what your beef is with the OP

AFAICT he considers the reasons black vets were unable to get into southern colleges benign.

 

[fast]

[1]My father came home from WW2,started a family,and bought a house with a Federally backed loan.

[2]He went to night school as he worked to become machinist.

[3]Had he been a black vet he would not have gotten this step up.

[4]http://www.nber.org/digest/dec02/w9044.html

My focus has been on the relationship between line 3 and line 4. I do not conclude line 3 after reading line 4.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Back then there was a lot of racism. It's only in the time after affirmative action that racism ceased to be an important factor.

Where did the racism go, Loren? Did AA run racism out of town? Is that what you are saying?

AA broke it's back as something of importance. Once there was no longer the social pressure not to hire blacks market forces take over. While there may be individual cases of discrimination it won't be on a scale big enough to hold blacks down. If wages for any given group are depressed appreciably below their true value an arbitrage situation is created and somebody's going to exploit it.

The only way this doesn't happen is either legal pressure or social consequences from hiring blacks that exceed the savings.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Where did the racism go, Loren? Did AA run racism out of town? Is that what you are saying?

AA broke it's back as something of importance. Once there was no longer the social pressure

When did this happen? Got a date?

not to hire blacks market forces take over.

Market forces? Could you be more specific.

While there may be individual cases of discrimination

How many individual cases do you need to have happen before discrimination stops simply being individual cases and is a social problem?

it won't be on a scale big enough to hold blacks down.

And you know this how?

If wages for any given group are depressed appreciably below their true value an arbitrage situation is created and somebody's going to exploit it.

Really now?

According to the EPI

Since the late 1970s, wages for the bottom 70 percent of earners have been essentially stagnant, and between 2009 and 2013, real wages fell for the entire bottom 90 percent of the wage distribution. Even wages for the bottom 70 percent of four-year college graduates have been flat since 2000, and wages in most STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) occupations have grown anemically over the past decade.​

Surely there must be at least some wage depression involved with nearly FOUR DECADES of wage depression. And yet the arbitrage situation and its exploitation seen a little slow in coming. Maybe it's those pesky market forces, whatever they are and that you will explain and SOURCE.

The only way this doesn't happen is either legal pressure or social consequences from hiring blacks that exceed the savings.

You just said

Once there was no longer the social pressure not to hire blacks market forces take over.

So what social consequences are you talking about?

 

[Horatio Parker]

[1]My father came home from WW2,started a family,and bought a house with a Federally backed loan.

[2]He went to night school as he worked to become machinist.

[3]Had he been a black vet he would not have gotten this step up.

[4]http://www.nber.org/digest/dec02/w9044.html

My focus has been on the relationship between line 3 and line 4. I do not conclude line 3 after reading line 4.

In your comparison, everyone gets $10. But this isn't valid - an accurate comparison would be that they would only get the $10 if they got a seat in a restaurant, which by your own admission few AAs could do.

Vets didn't automatically get a GI Bill check - they had to enroll in college and take classes.

 

[fast]

My focus has been on the relationship between line 3 and line 4. I do not conclude line 3 after reading line 4.

In your comparison, everyone gets $10. But this isn't valid - an accurate comparison would be that they would only get the $10 if they got a seat in a restaurant, which by your own admission few AAs could do.

Vets didn't automatically get a GI Bill check - they had to enroll in college and take classes.

That's a fair assessment, and it didn't go unnoticed, but because it had the same effect (giving me a dollar I can't use vs. not giving me a dollar I can use), the example provided was for a different purpose: I wanted to show the general disconnect between who was to blame for there being few opportunities and the benefits of the GI Bill. I'm not the bad guy because people couldn't use the money.

The wording in that link was so carefully worded that I found it disgusting. There were black veterans that could attend colleges in the south, and those that could, benefitted through the GI Bill. The black people that benefitted in the south would not have benefitted if 1) they were not veterans and if 2) it was not for the GI bill. The GI bill is not the culprit for why some black veterans in the south didn't benefit from the GI bill. Had that been the case, it would have been said, but it wasn't said. People who carefully word things to make something look bad tend to do so in the worst possible light, yet that was never said, so just what in the hell is the gripe with the GI Bill, especially in light of the race neutral admission?

Exasperating the racial divide?

[pressed for time ... will address later]

 

[Horatio Parker]

In your comparison, everyone gets $10. But this isn't valid - an accurate comparison would be that they would only get the $10 if they got a seat in a restaurant, which by your own admission few AAs could do.

Vets didn't automatically get a GI Bill check - they had to enroll in college and take classes.

That's a fair assessment, and it didn't go unnoticed, but because it had the same effect (giving me a dollar I can't use vs. not giving me a dollar I can use), the example provided was for a different purpose: I wanted to show the general disconnect between who was to blame for there being few opportunities and the benefits of the GI Bill. I'm not the bad guy because people couldn't use the money.

The wording in that link was so carefully worded that I found it disgusting. There were black veterans that could attend colleges in the south, and those that could, benefitted through the GI Bill. The black people that benefitted in the south would not have benefitted if 1) they were not veterans and if 2) it was not for the GI bill. The GI bill is not the culprit for why some black veterans in the south didn't benefit from the GI bill. Had that been the case, it would have been said, but it wasn't said. People who carefully word things to make something look bad tend to do so in the worst possible light, yet that was never said, so just what in the hell is the gripe with the GI Bill, especially in light of the race neutral admission?

Exasperating the racial divide?

[pressed for time ... will address later]

Frankly, you sound a little defensive. It seems to me obvious that educational segregation was the culprit, not the GI Bill. The effect, tho, is the same.

Efforts such as this help to illuminate why the cycle of poverty persists among AAs.

Redlining and the use of predatory home loans is another good example.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How many individual cases do you need to have happen before discrimination stops simply being individual cases and is a social problem?

It becomes a problem when it's enough to reduce wages.

it won't be on a scale big enough to hold blacks down.

And you know this how?

If wages for any given group are depressed appreciably below their true value an arbitrage situation is created and somebody's going to exploit it.

Really now?

Yes. The market is quite good at exploiting such things.

According to the EPI

Since the late 1970s, wages for the bottom 70 percent of earners have been essentially stagnant, and between 2009 and 2013, real wages fell for the entire bottom 90 percent of the wage distribution. Even wages for the bottom 70 percent of four-year college graduates have been flat since 2000, and wages in most STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) occupations have grown anemically over the past decade.​

Surely there must be at least some wage depression involved with nearly FOUR DECADES of wage depression. And yet the arbitrage situation and its exploitation seen a little slow in coming. Maybe it's those pesky market forces, whatever they are and that you will explain and SOURCE.

And there's nothing racial in this quote--you're not showing discrimination. You're just showing that wages are not what you want them to be.

- - - Updated - - -

My focus has been on the relationship between line 3 and line 4. I do not conclude line 3 after reading line 4.

In your comparison, everyone gets $10. But this isn't valid - an accurate comparison would be that they would only get the $10 if they got a seat in a restaurant, which by your own admission few AAs could do.

Vets didn't automatically get a GI Bill check - they had to enroll in college and take classes.

The restaurant doesn't run out of seats. They might not be the top of the line seats but they do get in.

 

[Horatio Parker]

The restaurant doesn't run out of seats. They might not be the top of the line seats but they do get in.

So there was never any segregation post WWII in southern colleges?