The human mind

[steve_bank]

You haven't told me anything I didn't fully understand a long time ago.

There is this stuff we call Electromagnetic Energy.

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There is a tiny little section of this energy spectrum we call "visible light".

This tiny part of the EM spectrum must have properties related to biological life and have unique abilities to excite cells that other parts of the spectrum do not have.

But all EM energy can do is excite a cell. It can't give the cell information. It can't tell the cell "I'm supposed to be turned into blue".

Blue is something a brain turns the stimulation of retinal cells into.

Blue only exists as an experience.

It is not a property of objects or of EM energy. It is a property of the brain.

It is not information, sight is a causal physical stimulus response to wavelength. The word we assign to a color is conceptual and cam be called information. And that leads to the mind body dichotomy. A prescientific metaphysical view that mind must separate from physical body, and brain. Thoughts and consciousness are not seemingly physical. You can not touch a thought therefore it must be immaterial.

 

[untermensche]

You are babbling incoherent nonsense.

The cells of the retina are either excited or not. Some wavelength either excites a cell or it doesn't.

Cells do not get any information about color from the stimulus.

Color is an evolutionary contingency. It is a property of evolved brains.

Light energy has no information about color contained within it. It has nothing to do with color.

 

[DBT]

You're basically saying you totally agree.

Blue is just an evolutionary contingent, like the eye itself.

The stimulus is not blue. It does not have any information about blue.

Basically the stimulus hits the right switches and the brain creates the experience of blue.

And you want me to explain how a brain creates an experience?

If I did that I would win the Nobel.

It is not my position that is in question.

The article in question is your claim of autonomy of mind.

In your own words: a 'smart mind operating a dumb brain.'

That is the claim that needs justifying. As this happens to be your claim, it is you who needs to justify that claim, not me, not anyone else, you.

You are asking me to explain how the mind works.

We don't even know what the objective mind is yet.

You can't explain how something you don't even understand yet works.

But we can say with absolute assurance: For opinions to have any meaning they must have been freely chosen.

If you can't freely choose your opinions they have no meaning.

That's clearly not what I am asking you to do. My question was clearly related to your claim of autonomy of mind - in your own words, a smart mind operating a dumb brain.

That is a positive claim. It is your claim. Being your claim, you should justify your with descriptions on how it could work, experiments and evidence.

That's all I am asking.

Just like with anybody who makes a claim, especially an extraordinary claim such as yours.

 

[untermensche]

You are asking me to explain how the mind works.

We don't even know what the objective mind is yet.

You can't explain how something you don't even understand yet works.

But we can say with absolute assurance: For opinions to have any meaning they must have been freely chosen.

If you can't freely choose your opinions they have no meaning.

That's clearly not what I am asking you to do. My question was clearly related to your claim of autonomy of mind - in your own words, a smart mind operating a dumb brain.

That is a positive claim. It is your claim. Being your claim, you should justify your with descriptions on how it could work, experiments and evidence.

That's all I am asking.

Just like with anybody who makes a claim, especially an extraordinary claim such as yours.

Autonomy of mind is needed for any opinion to have value.

And how it occurs cannot be known until how a mind is created is known.

If you could tell me how a mind was created and what a mind is and then I could not show how autonomy occurred you would have a point.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Not understanding a transformation is necessary to have the experience of color

Equivocation. “Transformation” is the wrong word. You know this.

Regardless, even if you improperly use the word “transformation” you have just affirmed what I argued.

The wavelength is the stimulus; “blue” is the category of all memories associated with the wavelength stimulus; the “experience of blue” is the result of the process of retrieving the memories and updating the category with the newly formed memory.

It does not matter if during that process information is lost or gained (aka, “transformed”). The experience is the whole process of stimulus to retrieval to update to re-storage, which all takes place in a few millliseconds, if that.

You have even conceded as much here (with the already discussed exception that the brain is not actively creating anything; i.e., there is no decision to create something; the “experience” is merely the result of the entire process):

Basically the stimulus hits the right switches and the brain creates the experience of blue.

Iow:

Basically the stimulus hits the right switches and that's what generates the "experience of blue."

 

[untermensche]

A person with severe Alzheimers will still recognize color.

You have no evidence memory has anything to do with color production.

There is no stimulus " blue".

There are mechanisms that create blue from a stimulus that has absolutely nothing to do with blue.

It is as if a switch is hit and blue is produced.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

A person with severe Alzheimers will still recognize color.

Because Alzheimer's typically does not impact long term memory and the associations we make with color wavelengths are some of the oldest we have.

You have no evidence memory has anything to do with color production.

Then it's a damn good thing I never made that argument you pathetic troll.

There is no stimulus " blue".

More straw.

There are mechanisms that create [THE EXPERIENCE OF] blue from a stimulus that has [EVERYTHING] to do with [THE WAVELENGTH ASSOCIATED WITH] "blue."

It is as if a switch is hit and [THE EXPERIENCE OF] blue is produced.

As always, fify.

 

[steve_bank]

untermenche posts the EM spectrum and then argues there is no stimulus called blue. Cognitive disconnect.

The blue stimulus is a band of wavelengths. Memory ls not needed for color perception, it is required to associate the word blue with the perception. Our color perception is hard wired like an electronic circuit..

 

[untermensche]

There is no color information contained in EM radiation.

Color is something a brain creates whole from a colorless stimulus.

 

[untermensche]

Because Alzheimer's typically does not impact long term memory....

Absolutely wrong. Alzheimers destroys long term memory and short term memory capacities.

Memory has NOTHING to do with color production. It has nothing to do with the experience of color.

All memory is needed for is to say the name of the color.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Because Alzheimer's typically does not impact long term memory....

Absolutely wrong.

Binary bullshit.

Alzheimers destroys long term memory and short term memory capacities.

More binary bullshit. It can, but it does not always.

Memory has NOTHING to do with color production.

How fucking stupid are you? Seriously.

Once again, the wavelength is the stimulus; “blue” is the category of all memories associated with the wavelength stimulus; the “experience of blue” is the result of the process of retrieving the memories and updating the category with the newly formed memory.

Learn the word: ASSOCIATION

 

[steve_bank]

The eye physically discriminates between wavelengths. It is hotwired stimulus response.

Connect a color video camera to a color display. The camera discriminates by wavelength and is hard wired to a display. There is nothing about information or knowledge required, it is a blind stimulus response.

You can say 'blue' does not exist and that may be valid. Blue is an arbitrary word for a spectrum band. Wavelengths do exist experimentally.

 

[untermensche]

The eye physically discriminates between wavelengths. It is hotwired stimulus response.

Connect a color video camera to a color display. The camera discriminates by wavelength and is hard wired to a display. There is nothing about information or knowledge required, it is a blind stimulus response.

You can say 'blue' does not exist and that may be valid. Blue is an arbitrary word for a spectrum band. Wavelengths do exist experimentally.

Cells of the retina either are exited or they are not excited by an external stimulus.

If they are excited in a certain way, if the right buttons are pushed, the brain will produce blue.

But the thing pushing the buttons has nothing to do with blue.

And blue does exist.

As an experience and nothing else.

 

[untermensche]

Alzheimers destroys long term memory and short term memory capacities.

More binary bullshit. It can, but it does not always.

I have personally worked with hundreds of people with Alzheimer's. Long term memory is always effected. All memory uses retrieval mechanisms and has storage mechanisms. These are degraded by Alzheimer's. Sometimes a little sometimes a lot.

You are some child that has never done a thing.

Memory has NOTHING to do with color production.

How fucking stupid are you? Seriously.

This is not evidence.

You are talking out your ass and can't prove a thing you say.

Once again: Memory has NOTHING to do with color production. The mechanisms in the brain that create color from a stimulus that has nothing to do with color are not part of the memory system.

Memory is the storing of experiences.

Color production is taking a signal from the eye and producing a conscious experience, not a memory.

Two systems that may have some connection but are distinct systems doing entirely different funtions.

 

[steve_bank]

The eye physically discriminates between wavelengths. It is hotwired stimulus response.

Connect a color video camera to a color display. The camera discriminates by wavelength and is hard wired to a display. There is nothing about information or knowledge required, it is a blind stimulus response.

You can say 'blue' does not exist and that may be valid. Blue is an arbitrary word for a spectrum band. Wavelengths do exist experimentally.

Cells of the retina either are exited or they are not excited by an external stimulus.

If they are excited in a certain way, if the right buttons are pushed, the brain will produce blue.

But the thing pushing the buttons has nothing to do with blue.

And blue does exist.

As an experience and nothing else.

Hmmm. you say blue does exist but the thing that pushes the button is not blue. Hmmm...let me think. Nope, I have no idea what you mean.

 

[untermensche]

The eye physically discriminates between wavelengths. It is hotwired stimulus response.

Connect a color video camera to a color display. The camera discriminates by wavelength and is hard wired to a display. There is nothing about information or knowledge required, it is a blind stimulus response.

You can say 'blue' does not exist and that may be valid. Blue is an arbitrary word for a spectrum band. Wavelengths do exist experimentally.

Cells of the retina either are exited or they are not excited by an external stimulus.

If they are excited in a certain way, if the right buttons are pushed, the brain will produce blue.

But the thing pushing the buttons has nothing to do with blue.

And blue does exist.

As an experience and nothing else.

Hmmm. you say blue does exist but the thing that pushes the button is not blue. Hmmm...let me think. Nope, I have no idea what you mean.

Have you ever had an experience?

Do you know what an experience is?

If I say blue is an experience is this baffling?

Tell me how light energy tells a brain that has no ability to create a color, a brain way back in time, to create the experience of blue?

There was a time on earth when vision did not exist.

The entirety of the visual experience is a construction of the brain.

 

[DBT]

You are asking me to explain how the mind works.

We don't even know what the objective mind is yet.

You can't explain how something you don't even understand yet works.

But we can say with absolute assurance: For opinions to have any meaning they must have been freely chosen.

If you can't freely choose your opinions they have no meaning.

That's clearly not what I am asking you to do. My question was clearly related to your claim of autonomy of mind - in your own words, a smart mind operating a dumb brain.

That is a positive claim. It is your claim. Being your claim, you should justify your with descriptions on how it could work, experiments and evidence.

That's all I am asking.

Just like with anybody who makes a claim, especially an extraordinary claim such as yours.

Autonomy of mind is needed for any opinion to have value.

That is what I am asking you to prove. You are just re-stating your claim. You need to demonstrate why this is supposed to be the case.

 

[steve_bank]

Hmmm. you say blue does exist but the thing that pushes the button is not blue. Hmmm...let me think. Nope, I have no idea what you mean.

Have you ever had an experience?

Do you know what an experience is?

If I say blue is an experience is this baffling?

Tell me how light energy tells a brain that has no ability to create a color, a brain way back in time, to create the experience of blue?

There was a time on earth when vision did not exist.

The entirety of the visual experience is a construction of the brain.

The barb dies create a color. There are red, teen, and blue sensors in the eye. Shades of color are the result of relative levels in the RGB sensors. Just like color TV.

Ever have a vivid color dream? Ever daydream in color?

What you see is essentially a TV screen created by the brain. Yes vision is a product of the brain, it is generically wired with nervous system and brain. Colors are filled in. From experiment every one does not have the exact same perceptions. We learn to interpret color.

Shown experimental some critters other than humans have color vision some do not. Some see into the ultraviolet. Some see infrared.

Carrion birds are attracted to the color of blood and guts.

 

[untermensche]

Autonomy of mind is needed for any opinion to have value.

That is what I am asking you to prove. You are just re-stating your claim. You need to demonstrate why this is supposed to be the case.

Tell me how any opinion you have has any value unless you have it freely.

Tell me how a forced opinion has value.

 

[untermensche]

Hmmm. you say blue does exist but the thing that pushes the button is not blue. Hmmm...let me think. Nope, I have no idea what you mean.

Have you ever had an experience?

Do you know what an experience is?

If I say blue is an experience is this baffling?

Tell me how light energy tells a brain that has no ability to create a color, a brain way back in time, to create the experience of blue?

There was a time on earth when vision did not exist.

The entirety of the visual experience is a construction of the brain.

The barb dies create a color. There are red, teen, and blue sensors in the eye. Shades of color are the result of relative levels in the RGB sensors. Just like color TV.

Ever have a vivid color dream? Ever daydream in color?

What you see is essentially a TV screen created by the brain. Yes vision is a product of the brain, it is generically wired with nervous system and brain. Colors are filled in. From experiment every one does not have the exact same perceptions. We learn to interpret color.

Shown experimental some critters other than humans have color vision some do not. Some see into the ultraviolet. Some see infrared.

Carrion birds are attracted to the color of blood and guts.

The light has different wavelengths. It has no color.

Color is something a brain creates in response to differing wavelengths of EM energy.

There is no blue light. No blue objects.

There is colorless energy of differing wavelengths that a brain turns into blue.

The only place blue exists is as an experience. In the mind.

I don't know how many other ways I could say this before you comprehend.

Color is something a brain turns colorless EM energy into.