The importance of reducing religion

[Brian63]

Over time, it has seemed more essential to me that we atheists, secularists, agnostics, etc. prioritize the reduction of religion over all other human traits. Religion holds back human progress on so many other issues, that our elimination of it we should see it as the focus of our efforts. Religion gives people invalid and ethically objectionable views on legal issues like gay rights, scientific issues like creationism/evolution, various social and psychological issues like how families function with each other (as one example, people may remain in “secular closets” for much of their lives because of fear of coming out of them), environmental issues like whether climate change is a real phenomenon, a person’s religion will be a dominant factor in choosing who to vote for in political elections which in turn affect us all, it may inspire some people to commit acts of terrorism against people who are not members of their particular religion, it affects people’s choices in determining their own personal medical care and end-of-life decisions, and much more.

A person’s religious beliefs are not just 1 view among a wide bundle of beliefs that they happened to hold. Rather, a person’s religious beliefs will greatly influence, practically determine, what their views will be on so many other issues as well. That affects them, as well as others near them, and all of us to some extent.

Not only does it affect what their other views will be on various matters, but it also influences (in a negative way) their underlying thought processes and how they use (or misuse) logic to form their worldviews. It relies on the ridiculous thought that it is a virtue to have belief without evidence (aka “faith”) to justify religious beliefs in particular. We human beings should instead treat it as a virtue to be open-minded and be willing to doubt our beliefs, think about our beliefs in more depth, and be willing to change our beliefs when the available evidence compels us to. Being open-minded should be considered a virtue, and not being closed-minded.

So I believe that it is important to devote some effort to change people’s views on specific issues like those listed above like gay rights, evolution/creationism, medical and health choices, and more, but still our primary efforts should be directed towards eliminating the harmful influence of religion. It is a roadblock in the way to so much progress, on so many issues, in so many ways.

To help achieve that, the most helpful thing a person can do is be an out-of-the-closet and outspoken atheist. Make it publicly known that atheists are real, we do not fit the negative stereotypes that religions declare about us, we have real disagreements with and objections to their religion (and are not just “searching for God” or trying to suppress hurtful feelings or other superficial declarations of our motives), and we are going to stand up for ourselves. It is okay to be an atheist, okay to doubt religions, okay to live a different lifestyle than the ones that religions impose on their followers.

Religion is the first thing that needs to be removed, before any real progress can be made.

Thoughts? Considerations?

Thanks,

Brian

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Over time, it has seemed more essential to me that we atheists, secularists, agnostics, etc. prioritize the reduction of religion over all other human traits. Religion holds back human progress on so many other issues, that our elimination of it we should see it as the focus of our efforts. Religion gives people invalid and ethically objectionable views on legal issues like gay rights, scientific issues like creationism/evolution, various social and psychological issues like how families function with each other (as one example, people may remain in “secular closets” for much of their lives because of fear of coming out of them), environmental issues like whether climate change is a real phenomenon, a person’s religion will be a dominant factor in choosing who to vote for in political elections which in turn affect us all, it may inspire some people to commit acts of terrorism against people who are not members of their particular religion, it affects people’s choices in determining their own personal medical care and end-of-life decisions, and much more.

A person’s religious beliefs are not just 1 view among a wide bundle of beliefs that they happened to hold. Rather, a person’s religious beliefs will greatly influence, practically determine, what their views will be on so many other issues as well. That affects them, as well as others near them, and all of us to some extent.

Not only does it affect what their other views will be on various matters, but it also influences (in a negative way) their underlying thought processes and how they use (or misuse) logic to form their worldviews. It relies on the ridiculous thought that it is a virtue to have belief without evidence (aka “faith”) to justify religious beliefs in particular. We human beings should instead treat it as a virtue to be open-minded and be willing to doubt our beliefs, think about our beliefs in more depth, and be willing to change our beliefs when the available evidence compels us to. Being open-minded should be considered a virtue, and not being closed-minded.

So I believe that it is important to devote some effort to change people’s views on specific issues like those listed above like gay rights, evolution/creationism, medical and health choices, and more, but still our primary efforts should be directed towards eliminating the harmful influence of religion. It is a roadblock in the way to so much progress, on so many issues, in so many ways.

To help achieve that, the most helpful thing a person can do is be an out-of-the-closet and outspoken atheist. Make it publicly known that atheists are real, we do not fit the negative stereotypes that religions declare about us, we have real disagreements with and objections to their religion (and are not just “searching for God” or trying to suppress hurtful feelings or other superficial declarations of our motives), and we are going to stand up for ourselves. It is okay to be an atheist, okay to doubt religions, okay to live a different lifestyle than the ones that religions impose on their followers.

Religion is the first thing that needs to be removed, before any real progress can be made.

Thoughts? Considerations?

Thanks,

Brian

Religion exists because there is a market for it.

I agree that atheists need to be just as vocal as religionists and I certainly am. But I also recognize the absurdity of religious behavior and belief. For someone who does not I identify that as a mental condition, not an intellectual choice. So I don't want to pick on my lessers. I certainly will protect myself from their irrational behavior but I also realize that in most cases there is nothing I can do except have my say and try to be as convincing as possible given their limitations.

No doubt that sounds condescending. But it's the same reality as knowing I cannot walk into a room full of toddlers and parents and start telling them how Santa is just pretend. They simply won't understand and/or don't want to hear it.

I also like to use the words religionism and religionist in discussions along with secularism and secularist. Religions differ in what they believe but all believe the same way generally speaking.

 

[couch_sloth]

I think it is important for us to promote critical thinking. e.g. The importance of exploring topics in an objective and critical way. And that includes thinking-over one's own cherished beliefs, in this way.

 

[sharon45]

Being open-minded should be considered a virtue, and not being closed-minded.

I like how Christians try to use this, saying that atheists really are the ones who are closed-minded, and closed-hearted also.

Religion is the first thing that needs to be removed, before any real progress can be made.

Well, we have made a lot of what I would easily call progress, just not nearly as much as we should have had without religion.

 

[Brian63]

I think it is important for us to promote critical thinking. e.g. The importance of exploring topics in an objective and critical way. And that includes thinking-over one's own cherished beliefs, in this way.

That is the approach I have had for much of my life, just find myself taking this other stance more recently. Religion is not just a bunch of faulty positions on various social issues, but also it is a huge impediment to people thinking in a reasonable way and is a massive obstruction to getting people onto the playing field of having a productive discussion of ideas. Before we can make significant progress into getting people to think critically, reasonably, and productively, we need to get rid of their religious motives and thought processes which currently are already occupying that space in their mind.

Brian

 

[Brian63]

To state another way---

A while back I remember getting into an online debate on a forum populated with fundies, and asking one of them why she believed the Bible was a true and accurate account about what actually happened in history, and her response was that "Because the Bible tells me it is." In so many other ways people in their lives can already know how to think rationally and critically and reasonably, so it is not a question of trying to educate them on *how* to think logically that is at issue. Rather, the problem is that they do not desire to apply that sort of critical thinking to their religious beliefs. Religion gets special exemptions and privileges that are not applied to other areas in our life. They would most likely see the logical problems with their religious beliefs if the characters in their religious stories were given different names like "Bob" or "Susan" and they were applied to more modern times. Give the people names like "Moses" and "Adam" and such though, and entirely different rules apply. They know already how to think with logical methods, they just do not apply those methods as thoroughly when it comes to their religious beliefs. It is the religion itself that has to go, before any significant progress can be made on all these other issues where religion infects their views.

Brian

 

[Random Person]

It sounds kind of fascist.

 

[abaddon]

"Religion has to go"... to be replaced with what? Some "facts"? How droll, and how rightly doomed to failure.

Secular society sucks for supporting people's psychobiological need to feel like a part of something meaningful that extends beyond their own solitary self-determined (and thus half-ass) sense of meaning.

You'll need to offer something better than "knowledge" and a role in "the good society" - the consuming, workaday, rootless, alienated society of modernity.

Science is too much in the purview of experts only, you'll need way more popularizers who can make a new story of the cosmos that appeals as well as "the sky daddy" and "the good book" do. Deriding the wish for imaginal supports as neurosis and weakness will get you absolutely nowhere, especially since it's perfectly natural and healthy to use the imagination, and in a huge variety of ways that don't "toe the [official] line". The question isn't "can you live without solace and support?", but "where shall we get it instead of in religion?" (if anywhere).

Speaking of imaginal solace and supports, if there's a way to encourage the movie-industry to be more substantive than offering so much comic book crap, that would be a change for the better. The arts and media are where the collective psyche is laid bare. The need for escapism says a lot about what society is. I don't think you can make the "I want to believe there's something better" people like this world when we moderns feel vacant enough inside to, collectively, have replaced the resplendent cathedrals and monuments with utilitarian block-shaped buildings, and great religious art with comic books and video games.

The will-to-meaning matters. A lot. That's why the debates with creationists are an exercise at wits, at best; the "evolutionists" offer mere facts when, though it might appear so even by the claims of the creationists themselves, facts and reason are NEVER the actual topic. "My story is better than your story" is always the actual topic (of course it's not framed that way; it's not conscious).

Let the best story win.

By "story" I do not mean "a falsehood". Nor can it be a description of facts either. You either have an inspiringly dramatic but yet science-informed over-arching story about earth's ecology (and the human animals in it) and our place in the cosmos, or you have a stinking pile of shit. (Hopefully "masters of the universe" isn't an image popping up in too many heads out there.)

Sorry, ranted and raved a while. But the notion of "get rid of religion" made me think "these people seem to have been taught to believe their civilization is the shiznit". When by many indications it definitely is not. Climate change, for yet another example, isn't because of religious people in origin and it's not just religious people blocking the measures that might slow it down.

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ETA: Maybe "changing" religion(s) rather than "reducing" it/them would be an option to consider.

 

[Brian63]

Just responding to your last statement above, as none of your reply addresses my position, but just your statement on climate change has any relevance anyhow---

Climate change, for yet another example, isn't because of religious people in origin and it's not just religious people blocking the measures that might slow it down.

Nobody ever stated it was either of those. I certainly do not hold anything even remotely close to those positions. Nobody here has stated those as being their positions. It is not “because of religious people” that climate change exists or that it is “just religious people” that block progress against it. There are of course non-religious and secular causes and contributors to the problems we have with climate change.

Religion itself has encouraged some people to not consider it a problem though. People have come up with religious views such as that God would protect the Earth against climate change and not allow that kind of harm to come to it, so that we do not need to worry about it, and thus they ignore any kind of actions which could help prevent it.

Their religious views also often contribute to their political views in general, notably becoming more conservative, and thus voting for Republican politicians in the U.S. Those Republican politicians may themselves hold religious or secular worldviews, and either way they generally do not consider climate change to be a real problem, which puts us in deeper trouble with it.

So I am not attributing any problems we face (climate change, opposition to homosexual rights, various social customs and routines that are hindrances to progress, etc.) exclusively just to religion only and saying there are no secular contributors to them. What I am actually saying is that the religion is just the most prominent and the most massive and the most important impediment to making significant progress on those various problems we encounter.

Please note the important difference.

Brian

 

[Sarpedon]

There is no reason to replace a thing that is useless.

The assumption that religion would be 'replaced' by something, implies that religion has a use. It doesn't, aside from its usefulness in taking money from stupid people. From the point of view of the victims, there is no actual use, only a perceived one. Take away the perception of usefulness, and it would simply wither away.

 

[Treedbear]

"Religion has to go"... to be replaced with what? Some "facts"? How droll, and how rightly doomed to failure.

Secular society sucks for supporting people's psychobiological need to feel like a part of something meaningful that extends beyond their own solitary self-determined (and thus half-ass) sense of meaning.

You'll need to offer something better than "knowledge" and a role in "the good society" - the consuming, workaday, rootless, alienated society of modernity.

...

There are all kinds of fantasy worlds attractive especially to youth where they get to dress up in weird costumes and socialize and let their imaginations go wild and which don't carry civic and political baggage and have minimal burdens of guilt. Society has changed thanks to the internet. In some ways it might be a bit too effective.