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The impossibility of ethical behavior

PyramidHead

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There are three ways I can see in which the possibility of being minimally ethical in life is actually untenable.

To be minimally ethical, I mean something like: not placing one's own interests above somebody else's just because they are one's own, taking other people's interests into account and not just one's own interests, leaving open the potential for putting the others' interests first even if they run counter to one's own, etc. I take this to be the basic feature of ethical action, apart from the justifications that are added later (duty, utility, or social cohesion).

We can see this intuitively if we consider some examples. A person who saves a woman in danger can be judged in a lot of ways, depending on the motivation and the outcome. If he did it because he felt the woman could contribute something of worth to society if she survived, that's a fair way of looking at things. If she was someone he loved and wanted to protect so they could be together in the future, that may be touching, but something is still missing. If he weighed the logic of Kant and decided that there was no logical way he could allow her to remain in danger without creating a universal maxim that could hurt him later, he might be congratulated for his philosophical acumen.

But if she was someone who had no social standing, was otherwise hated by him, and there was no other reason he gave for rescuing her, then most people would at least agree his behavior was exceptionally moral. Putting himself in harm's way spontaneously to help someone else, without consideration of anything other than their shared status as conscious beings, strikes us as a compassionate, selfless act rather than a calculated one. And if, in rescuing the woman, he lost his own life (and especially if he knew this would happen before doing it), the moral character of his action comes into even sharper focus. In other words, despite the fact that moral theories all purport to justify actions by some objective criterion such as maximizing happiness or fulfilling a transcendent obligation, ethics is most obviously found in cases where someone surrenders their self-interest in spite of any objective criterion.

Taken in isolation, acts like these can be admirable, but they reveal something about the world we live in. Having witnessed a self-sacrificing act and deeming it ethical, we can now ask the extent to which being ethical in this way is within our grasp as living beings.

As I mentioned earlier, there are at least three impediments to acting ethically that seem insurmountable to me as long as we remain alive.

1. The way I maintain my existence is to find or create things that are valuable to me, and everybody else in the world is engaged in the same enterprise.

2. At any moment, I am capable of feeling physical pain that is so extreme, all of my ethical responsibilities are immediately discarded so that the pain can stop.

3. As a generalization of the previous two points, I cannot help but to harbor an instinctive idea of "self-defense" that guides my behavior.

Regardless of the empirical state of my surrounding ethical environment, these impediments exert a permanent subversive effect on my ethical aspirations.

From the moment I wake up, every action I perform is done in defiance of the minimal ethical principle I spoke of: in order to survive, I have to consume food and water, but not everyone in the world has enough food and water, so I must already disrespect the hungry and thirsty by not surrendering my breakfast. Having resolved to have breakfast, I create additional demand for the plants and animals that died so I could have this meal, but they didn't wish to die. The technology I use converts energy into heat, and makes the planet less hospitable for everyone. Even when I do good deeds such as helping a woman in danger, I cannot help but step on the toes of others, either those I didn't help because I directed my efforts in another direction, or those who will later be harmed by whoever benefits from my charity. By the light of these and other conflicts, we can see how the ongoing existence of beings who are compelled to maintain their livelihood presents an obstacle to ethics.

Someone who is under torture or suffering from wasting disease, in agony, has no ethical obligations. For all our philosophizing about living a moral life and being charitable to others, we concede that an exception is always permissible if we will be hurt too badly. Even though what we hold up as the paragon of a moral act involves sacrificing self-interest, there is no sense in which someone enduring unbearable pain is expected to put the interests of others before stopping the pain. This kind of pain might never happen to us (or it might be waiting for us all as we near decrepitude), but as an avenue of moral escape it remains a permanent possibility. I can never say with full confidence that I will always shelter you from evil, because I know that there is a threshold of physical discomfort beyond which I will intentionally flee from that promise.

Combined, these two forces create the ethical blockade called "self-defense". In every way, the doctrine of self-defense is an admission of the impossibility of ethical behavior. If we always reserve the right to continue our survival, pursue our projects, and avoid serious pain, then we are already operating in a zone where the minimal ethical requirement is at all times being transgressed. Within this zone, we can judge some actions as "ethical" and others as "not ethical", but this takes place inside the larger violation of ethics that is constituted by actions per se. The ethics of philosophers and social theorists are all situated in this deflated, compromised space while claiming to be primary and authentic.

One might attempt to justify the compromise by invoking something like the survival of mankind, or picking the best out of a set of bad options. In this line of reasoning, though, ethical responsibility is made subservient to incidental concerns; why should it have ever been true that being ethical was always compatible with species survival? We have tried to convince ourselves that ethics is primarily an evolved set of responses to pressures faced by our ancestors, and that the ones who thrived long enough to reproduce were those with this innate sense of selflessness. But doesn't that imply, with just as much strength, that we may be descended from a line of humans that did not regard ethical concerns as primary, that had some sense of selflessness but not enough to prevent them from reproducing? Why must we assume that the lineage we belong to is the one that evolved the most compassion, rather than the one that evolved a compassion that was suitable for propagating their DNA? Isn't it plausible that a branch of humans, committed to ethical responsibility in the minimal, basic sense described here, expressed their ethics by abstaining from reproduction--or by committing suicide?

The fact that our partial morality has preserved the species is evidence for nothing more than the mundane fact that the impossibility of ethical behavior is ancient, established long before any of us were born.
 
I agree, mostly. Anyone who believes in or strives for some standard or definition of ethical behaviour which is unattainable or impossible except perhaps through suicide is entitled to have that value system. Personally, I don't. Things is flawed. In other news, the pope is catholic. So if there really are or were philosophers and social theorists claiming this or that ethics to be primary and authentic, then they are/were probably barking up the wrong tree. Which is perhaps what you are saying.

The only way out of the problem I can see would be to claim that some form of flawed ethics is authentic. Which I assume someone already has. :)
 
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This morality/ethicality problem is a very tricky one. I currently like the take on it, that as a social species, humans fare best, when we co-operate, and look after one another. This only works well if reciprocity occurs - we all look after each other. Group efforts are much more efficient and effective than working alone all the time.

WELLBEING is a blanket term for the health, happiness, self-determination, self preservation and so on, of a person. As a principle, with regards to humanity. the maximisation of wellbeing on the earth, is the goal, when being moral or ethical. It is global wellbeing, which one can presuppose to be the aim.

Seen that way, one does not behave in ways which reduce or rob another of their wellbeing. That being said, the question arises as to what promotes, and what erodes wellbeing? Proper understanding of the human condition, and the outcomes for humans, of the behaviours one might carry out is the avenue by which the analysis of wellness maximisation~non-erosion takes place. We can ask ourselves questions like: "If I carry out action X, or harbour attitude Y, then what is the effect on the wellbeing of all people affected". This might lead one to not take the action, or to try to lose the attitude. Analysing a set of options might lead one to choose which one fits the bill, (wellbeing), the best.

However, our knowledge is limited, and we may not always be able to figure out the effect of an action or attitude, upon human wellbeing. If an action or attitude must be taken, then we may have to opt to 'fly blind', so to speak, and use our intuitions about the matter. It may turn out that we got it wrong, and that ought to influence our thinking and actions in the future. The better informed we are about the nature of humanity, and the likely out comes of our thoughts and actions as they affect the whole population, the less haphazard, less subjective and more "objective"*, our choices can become, from an ethical perspective.
* = more agreed upon as promotional of wellbeing maximisation~non-erosion.

It bohoves us to learn about the human condition, and the likely consequences of what we do, in order to advance this goal of wellbeing maximisation~non-erosion. It is based on the presupposition that as a society, our co-operative spirit and actions are the best way to look after ourselves and others, in reciprocity. But it does not oblige everyone to agree, and people may choose to live an amoral, immoral or unethical life. But for those of us who want to choose an ethical approach, then it is a way forward, but it is necessarily flawed by our inability to know fully what courses are open to us, and possibly how such courses will affect the goal. So it's an ongoing project, but one aimed towards an ideal, and which ought to become more and more refined, with time, effort and experience.

I've left aside the place of non-human life in this, but we should be cognisant that the wellbeing of plant and animal life and ecosystems, (and to stretch the point, the planet as a whole, eg. climate etc. ), does have an effect on human wellbeing.

Pops.
 
My question would be: if there is no way for people to be ethical by the very nature of their existence, why not define our existence as amoral, rather than trying to explain our behaviour in the context of ethics?

If people cannot be ethical, why talk ethics in the first place? Dreams about sustainability and utopia?
 
I agree, mostly. Anyone who believes in or strives for some standard or definition of ethical behaviour which is unattainable or impossible except perhaps through suicide is entitled to have that value system. Personally, I don't. Things is flawed. In other news, the pope is catholic. So if there really are or were philosophers and social theorists claiming this or that ethics to be primary and authentic, then they are/were probably barking up the wrong tree. Which is perhaps what you are saying.

The only way out of the problem I can see would be to claim that some form of flawed ethics is authentic. Which I assume someone already has. :)

I would say most people believe they are basically moral, or as moral as they can reasonably be expected to be. Most ethical philosophies do not start with the preamble "I am about to offer some insubstantial window-dressing to help us rate some behaviors as less bad than others, as all behaviors are pretty much bad right out of the gate." People and theories usually begin with the premise that a good life is possible, good in the sense of doing what is right by your fellow beings. There may be some acknowledgement that nobody is perfect, but most would argue that a system of ethics that allows society to function while minimizing undue harm would be an adequate fulfillment of the moral obligations we have to each other.

This misplaced confidence in our moralities is what gives people the motivation to expand further and further away from the minimal concept of voluntary surrendering of one's own interests in favor of another's. It's just a dim shape in the rear view mirror now, and we've moved on to more sophisticated ideas: stand your ground, err on the side of life, fighting wars to preserve the peace, killing criminals to deter further killing, all these exceptions and distortions of the original kernel of compassion. In my opinion, there would be a lot more hesitation and lot less bravado if we kept the truth of the matter in plain sight at all times: that we have chosen to preserve certain structures of civilized life by abandoning our basic ethical imperatives, not by embracing them.

And you know what, I think that's okay. I don't think everybody has to be ethical all the time as long as they're honest about it. But by removing the seductive veneer of morality from public policy, or at least putting it in a context that reveals it to be nothing more than a consolation prize, we could stop a lot of pointless conflicts before they start. Maybe. Maybe not.
 
My question would be: if there is no way for people to be ethical by the very nature of their existence, why not define our existence as amoral, rather than trying to explain our behaviour in the context of ethics?

If people cannot be ethical, why talk ethics in the first place? Dreams about sustainability and utopia?

That's exactly the point I'm trying to suggest by this line of reasoning, or at least a step towards it. Simply altering our view about ethical behavior is a movement in the direction of clarity and honesty, at least, even if it doesn't change anything.

Yet, in addition to just swallowing this unpleasant idea about our world, I think it may be possible to reconstruct an almost-primary ethics. Where the prevailing moral philosophies emphasize action (or progress, the pursuit of happiness, setting and achieving goals, coexisting with others, creating more and more opportunities, Sam Harris often uses the term "flourishing"), and then evaluate which actions are right and which are wrong, a moral philosophy based on inaction (or withdrawal, retreat, stasis, solitude, Julio Cabrera uses the Spanish verb desocupado, "vacating") that evaluates which actions are least invasive, least destructive, knowing that all of them are on the same spectrum of invasion and destruction anyway, has a better chance of being ethical.

This is all conceptual, though. In practice, I would imagine that inserting this kind of negative thinking in measured doses would have a beneficial effect on society, ironically enough. At least in the United States, there is this persistent image of the self-actualized moral man, the entrepreneur forging his path, brightening the lives of those he encounters through his efforts. Concealed by this image is all the thanatos elements of being in the world, with which Americans have a panicked, unsteady relationship. At the very least, giving air to the impossibility of ethics could at least provide some relief from guilt and stress. It comes at the price of our ability to grandstand and claim a "high ground", though.
 
This morality/ethicality problem is a very tricky one. I currently like the take on it, that as a social species, humans fare best, when we co-operate, and look after one another. This only works well if reciprocity occurs - we all look after each other. Group efforts are much more efficient and effective than working alone all the time.

WELLBEING is a blanket term for the health, happiness, self-determination, self preservation and so on, of a person. As a principle, with regards to humanity. the maximisation of wellbeing on the earth, is the goal, when being moral or ethical. It is global wellbeing, which one can presuppose to be the aim.

Seen that way, one does not behave in ways which reduce or rob another of their wellbeing. That being said, the question arises as to what promotes, and what erodes wellbeing? Proper understanding of the human condition, and the outcomes for humans, of the behaviours one might carry out is the avenue by which the analysis of wellness maximisation~non-erosion takes place. We can ask ourselves questions like: "If I carry out action X, or harbour attitude Y, then what is the effect on the wellbeing of all people affected". This might lead one to not take the action, or to try to lose the attitude. Analysing a set of options might lead one to choose which one fits the bill, (wellbeing), the best.

However, our knowledge is limited, and we may not always be able to figure out the effect of an action or attitude, upon human wellbeing. If an action or attitude must be taken, then we may have to opt to 'fly blind', so to speak, and use our intuitions about the matter. It may turn out that we got it wrong, and that ought to influence our thinking and actions in the future. The better informed we are about the nature of humanity, and the likely out comes of our thoughts and actions as they affect the whole population, the less haphazard, less subjective and more "objective"*, our choices can become, from an ethical perspective.
* = more agreed upon as promotional of wellbeing maximisation~non-erosion.

It bohoves us to learn about the human condition, and the likely consequences of what we do, in order to advance this goal of wellbeing maximisation~non-erosion. It is based on the presupposition that as a society, our co-operative spirit and actions are the best way to look after ourselves and others, in reciprocity. But it does not oblige everyone to agree, and people may choose to live an amoral, immoral or unethical life. But for those of us who want to choose an ethical approach, then it is a way forward, but it is necessarily flawed by our inability to know fully what courses are open to us, and possibly how such courses will affect the goal. So it's an ongoing project, but one aimed towards an ideal, and which ought to become more and more refined, with time, effort and experience.

I've left aside the place of non-human life in this, but we should be cognisant that the wellbeing of plant and animal life and ecosystems, (and to stretch the point, the planet as a whole, eg. climate etc. ), does have an effect on human wellbeing.

Pops.

The general point I would make is that all of the considerations you lay out here are secondary strategies that could improve the lot of people who are here, having already abandoned the primary consideration of morality simply because they are here (and have chosen to remain here and bring more people here). That's fine; between maximizing well-being and, say, giving everything to whoever has the most power, it's certainly better to focus on well-being. But I'm trying to instill the notion that even the most egalitarian of our moral options is still, at best, a way of navigating a landscape where ethics has necessarily been abandoned.

In other words, while the ethics of well-being-maximization asks "how should I live?", it starts too late; it skips the primary question of "should I live?" It never considers the possibility that, in persisting as a being that takes up space, consumes energy, and prioritizes my own survival over others, I have already committed myself to a direction that runs contrary to well-being maximization. Well-being itself presumes being as a given, and asks how to be well, without asking whether to be is actually compatible with the minimal constraints of ethical action.
 
On a personal level I've mostly just accepted the world as is and am committed to fully experiencing my time in the world before I die, without much concern about things like ethics, politics, and the like.

My reading of history has shown me that whatever our future is, it's more or less inevitable, and it would be insane for me to think I could have any real impact on the over-arching direction of humanity, or much of anything really. And so instead of spending all of my precious days concerned about the state of the world, I spend them doing the things I want to do.

That's not so much in response to what you're saying, but I think it is a life pathway that a lot of people don't really see. Just say fuck it to all of this bullshit, hand a homeless person 5 bucks for a beer now and then, and just enjoy the ride.
 
And yet we see examples of ethical behaviour every day.

I'm of the opinion that a lot of the 'ethical' stuff we see day to day is really 'I would look like an asshole if I didn't offer this basic common courtesy'. And other examples are often 'I'm projecting an image of doing good to my social group' but realistically I'm doing and accomplishing nothing.

I see far more examples of naked malevolence, then I do genuine and sincere benevolence. Not that I'm cynical, but I really don't think people, in sum, are that caring toward anyone or anything outside of their in-groups.
 
And yet we see examples of ethical behaviour every day.

Perhaps, but they are akin to the excellence on display by soldiers in a war. We can find examples of skill, craftsmanship, dedication, self-sacrifice, and finesse among the ranks of any unit, even among the members of a terrorist cell in Syria or in the battalions commanded by Stalin's officers. In these cases, we (mostly) acknowledge that these are qualities we provisionally regard as good, within the context of something that is not good. They are virtues encapsulated in something that moves in the opposite direction of virtue. That's what the everyday examples of ethical behavior are like, in my opinion.
 
Maybe. Maybe not.

Useful caveat, imo. :)

Who knows? Personally (and I confess most of my worldviews tend towards self interest in the 1st instance) I like casting off as many pairs of invisible rose-coloured spectacles as is possible, or at least the ones I'm not deeply scared will make me miserable if I lose them. But as to society, hoomankind, it's also possible, I think, that aiming for the stars, even if they are out of reach, even if they are illusory, will at least get us to the moon.

The key, as you suggest, might be measured doses. I wouldn't volunteer to be the one recommending what size the spoons should be or how much sugar could be put in to help the medicine go down.
 
.. while the ethics of well-being-maximization asks "how should I live?", it starts too late; it skips the primary question of "should I live?".

You regularly hit a nail on the head with that one, imo.

I wish I could take credit for the wording, but it isn't my invention. I just want more people to hear it and understand it.
 
Yet, in addition to just swallowing this unpleasant idea about our world, I think it may be possible to reconstruct an almost-primary ethics. Where the prevailing moral philosophies emphasize action (or progress, the pursuit of happiness, setting and achieving goals, coexisting with others, creating more and more opportunities, Sam Harris often uses the term "flourishing"), and then evaluate which actions are right and which are wrong, a moral philosophy based on inaction (or withdrawal, retreat, stasis, solitude, Julio Cabrera uses the Spanish verb desocupado, "vacating") that evaluates which actions are least invasive, least destructive, knowing that all of them are on the same spectrum of invasion and destruction anyway, has a better chance of being ethical.

This is all conceptual, though. In practice, I would imagine that inserting this kind of negative thinking in measured doses would have a beneficial effect on society, ironically enough. At least in the United States, there is this persistent image of the self-actualized moral man, the entrepreneur forging his path, brightening the lives of those he encounters through his efforts. Concealed by this image is all the thanatos elements of being in the world, with which Americans have a panicked, unsteady relationship. At the very least, giving air to the impossibility of ethics could at least provide some relief from guilt and stress. It comes at the price of our ability to grandstand and claim a "high ground", though.

Question: Do you think that 'eastern' philosophies have embraced the sorts of things you are talking about more than 'western' ones?

My guess would be yes.
 
Yet, in addition to just swallowing this unpleasant idea about our world, I think it may be possible to reconstruct an almost-primary ethics. Where the prevailing moral philosophies emphasize action (or progress, the pursuit of happiness, setting and achieving goals, coexisting with others, creating more and more opportunities, Sam Harris often uses the term "flourishing"), and then evaluate which actions are right and which are wrong, a moral philosophy based on inaction (or withdrawal, retreat, stasis, solitude, Julio Cabrera uses the Spanish verb desocupado, "vacating") that evaluates which actions are least invasive, least destructive, knowing that all of them are on the same spectrum of invasion and destruction anyway, has a better chance of being ethical.

This is all conceptual, though. In practice, I would imagine that inserting this kind of negative thinking in measured doses would have a beneficial effect on society, ironically enough. At least in the United States, there is this persistent image of the self-actualized moral man, the entrepreneur forging his path, brightening the lives of those he encounters through his efforts. Concealed by this image is all the thanatos elements of being in the world, with which Americans have a panicked, unsteady relationship. At the very least, giving air to the impossibility of ethics could at least provide some relief from guilt and stress. It comes at the price of our ability to grandstand and claim a "high ground", though.

Question: Do you think that 'eastern' philosophies have embraced the sorts of things you are talking about more than 'western' ones?

My guess would be yes.

Possibly. Something like the categorical nonviolence of Jainism comes to mind, but I don't know much about that. Although, and I tried to explain this to LionIRC in another thread, what I'm describing here is essentially Christian ethics before the Church. Christ didn't give any qualifying statements about making sure that your behavior was consistent with the goals of society, objective well-being-maximization, or the preservation of humankind into the indefinite future. His message was to unequivocally surrender your property and goals to help others, and his short life is an example of what that means for one's livelihood. Obviously there were religious elements and the apocalyptic side of his teaching, but as an ethics, Christ's (or whoever authored his story) words to his disciples were a pretty honest attempt at keeping the primary impulse of ethical behavior in sight, without piling on exceptions for non-ethical reasons.

But you can find the same thing in the words of Ghandi or the Buddha to some extent. Buddhism at least starts with the right foundation: birth, life, and death are *all* problems, not just the last part! There's this European tendency to think about the evils of the world, including death, as some kind of unexpected invading presence that needs to be explained. We have this innate goodness everywhere until something pollutes it, the enemy, the other, the sickness, the storm, the Devil, and these are what should be blamed for ruining everything. With Buddhism, I like how at the outset, it basically says all the ingredients for suffering are right here in the pot and any attempt to stir it will just spread it around. So you're supposed to find a way to be quiet and make peace with things instead of aggressively trying to banish this strange, foreign toxin.

I don't know a lot about Confucianism, so I can't really speak to that. The other thing I've heard is that Judaism has a great pessimistic tradition, which is why there are so many Jewish comedians, but I don't know how much of that is stereotyping.
 
Seems like the question is whether or not it is possible to not act out of self interest in some small way.

I do charity work, it improves the quality of the social environment I live in.
 
Seems like the question is whether or not it is possible to not act out of self interest in some small way.

I do charity work, it improves the quality of the social environment I live in.

It's partly that, but the emphasis isn't on the fact that I benefit from my actions, it's on the fact that I harm or disrespect others when I do any action. This isn't a feature of human psychology or a failing of society, it's just a natural consequence of life's structure.
 
Seems like the question is whether or not it is possible to not act out of self interest in some small way.

I do charity work, it improves the quality of the social environment I live in.

It's partly that, but the emphasis isn't on the fact that I benefit from my actions, it's on the fact that I harm or disrespect others when I do any action. This isn't a feature of human psychology or a failing of society, it's just a natural consequence of life's structure.

I'd argue morality serves to attenuate the natural order of humans.
 
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