The Iron Chariots

[DLH]

One of the most common misconceptions held by atheists is the case of the iron chariots. God, it is believed, wasn't strong enough to protect the people of Israel from the people of Canaan due to the former having chariots with iron scythes protruding from their wheels. The refutation:

1. Jehovah said that the people of Israel were not to be afraid, even though their opponents had horses and chariots. Early in their period Israel didn't possess these things specifically for that reason. Jehovah wanted them to be sure that it wasn't numbers, horses, or chariots that could be misconstrued as their strength. Their strength, it must be realized, was Jehovah their God.

2. Once the Israelites corrected their behavior and regained their faith Jehovah dealt with the iron chariots accordingly and the Israelites were victorious.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The misconception is so common, I've never heard of it.

 

[DLH]

The misconception is so common, I've never heard of it.

Well I have. On nearly every atheist forum I've visited, including this one.

[ETA] Here and Here for example.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'm not following your logic here. The passages in question are about Judah having an army and winning wars. The one battle they didn't win was against the people in the valley with the iron chariots. God never said anything about how the people of Israel weren't supposed to be afraid and there was nothing inbetween the people of the valley beating Judah and the people of the valley getting beaten and becoming tributaries which in any way involves regaining faith in Jehovah or having their strength misconstrued or anything like that. What are your refutations a reference to? I can't see anything in this section of the Bible related to either of them.

The misconception about the iron chariots which many atheists have comes from this passage:

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

The "He" in question who couldn't drive them out was Judah - the guy leading the invasion army. A lot of people read it to be referring to the Lord instead, when it really seems to be meant in more of a metaphorical sense like "God is out there with us on the football field today".

 

[Sarpedon]

Yes, it makes perfect sense, if you make things up and pretend it's in the bible.

What does Revelations say about people who make things up and add them to the bible? I think it involves curses.

 

[DLH]

I'm not following your logic here. The passages in question are about Judah having an army and winning wars. The one battle they didn't win was against the people in the valley with the iron chariots. God never said anything about how the people of Israel weren't supposed to be afraid and there was nothing inbetween the people of the valley beating Judah and the people of the valley getting beaten and becoming tributaries which in any way involves regaining faith in Jehovah or having their strength misconstrued or anything like that. What are your refutations a reference to? I can't see anything in this section of the Bible related to either of them.

The misconception about the iron chariots which many atheists have comes from this passage:

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

The "He" in question who couldn't drive them out was Judah - the guy leading the invasion army. A lot of people read it to be referring to the Lord instead, when it really seems to be meant in more of a metaphorical sense like "God is out there with us on the football field today".

That's an interesting perspective I've never heard expressed, and a good one. I think that one of the things atheists (as well as apologists, but especially) often miss is that you can't always read the Bible at face value, in a sense. For example, everything I indicated in the post was known by the Israelites but not necessary to have mentioned in that brief passage. Likewise, the later victory wasn't mentioned there but elsewhere.

 

[DLH]

Yes, it makes perfect sense, if you make things up and pretend it's in the bible.

What does Revelations say about people who make things up and add them to the bible? I think it involves curses.

Revelation 22:18, 19 "I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll."

One thing that skeptics often overlook is to whom the Bible is addressed specifically. In Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32 / Proverbs 30:6 there is similar advice to the people of Israel as 2 Corinthians 11:4 / Galatians 1:8 / 1 John 4:3 and Revelation 22:18-19 applied to the early Christians undertaking in the extremely important ministry of the first century C.E.

The Bible wasn't written for us specifically in mind. It was written for the people of the time in which it was written and used by us from example.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'm not following your logic here. The passages in question are about Judah having an army and winning wars. The one battle they didn't win was against the people in the valley with the iron chariots. God never said anything about how the people of Israel weren't supposed to be afraid and there was nothing inbetween the people of the valley beating Judah and the people of the valley getting beaten and becoming tributaries which in any way involves regaining faith in Jehovah or having their strength misconstrued or anything like that. What are your refutations a reference to? I can't see anything in this section of the Bible related to either of them.

The misconception about the iron chariots which many atheists have comes from this passage:



The "He" in question who couldn't drive them out was Judah - the guy leading the invasion army. A lot of people read it to be referring to the Lord instead, when it really seems to be meant in more of a metaphorical sense like "God is out there with us on the football field today".

That's an interesting perspective I've never heard expressed, and a good one. I think that one of the things atheists (as well as apologists, but especially) often miss is that you can't always read the Bible at face value, in a sense. For example, everything I indicated in the post was known by the Israelites but not necessary to have mentioned in that brief passage. Likewise, the later victory wasn't mentioned there but elsewhere.

Fine, but where is this from:

1. Jehovah said that the people of Israel were not to be afraid, even though their opponents had horses and chariots. Early in their period Israel didn't possess these things specifically for that reason. Jehovah wanted them to be sure that it wasn't numbers, horses, or chariots that could be misconstrued as their strength. Their strength, it must be realized, was Jehovah their God.

2. Once the Israelites corrected their behavior and regained their faith Jehovah dealt with the iron chariots accordingly and the Israelites were victorious.

The "God can't beat iron chariots" comes from a misinterpretation of a single sentence in the Bible that's taken out of context from the surrounding paragraph. I can't see how your two "refutations" here even rise up to that level of credibility.

I just reread Judges to see if there's something in there which I'd forgotten, but there doesn't seem to be anything even remotely related to what you've said here. Where are you getting them from?

 

[DLH]

Fine, but where is this from:

1. Jehovah said that the people of Israel were not to be afraid, even though their opponents had horses and chariots. Early in their period Israel didn't possess these things specifically for that reason. Jehovah wanted them to be sure that it wasn't numbers, horses, or chariots that could be misconstrued as their strength. Their strength, it must be realized, was Jehovah their God.

2. Once the Israelites corrected their behavior and regained their faith Jehovah dealt with the iron chariots accordingly and the Israelites were victorious.

The "God can't beat iron chariots" comes from a misinterpretation of a single sentence in the Bible that's taken out of context from the surrounding paragraph. I can't see how your two "refutations" here even rise up to that level of credibility.

I just reread Judges to see if there's something in there which I'd forgotten, but there doesn't seem to be anything even remotely related to what you've said here. Where are you getting them from?

Deuteronomy 20:1-4 and Joshua 17:18-18:1

 

[Sarpedon]

What did you just say about how different books of the bible were written for the exact time and place they were written in, and not for future times?

 

[DLH]

What did you just say about how different books of the bible were written for the exact time and place they were written in, and not for future times?

Well. Not exactly what I said. I didn't make the distinctions of books, the separation of specific books may not have been employed until much later, and not at first similar to how we are accustomed to them today. But, the Bible as a whole was written gradually in specific mind of those who it was addressing at that specific time. For example, the Law of Moses applied to those from Moses time up until Pentecost 33 C.E., the scrolls being referenced in Revelation to those contemporaries of John. Not to us today. Not that, for example, the 10 commandments aren't a good reference for us to consider as an example, but we can eat pork and don't have to observe the sabbath, don't have to get circumcised or kill faggs n' witches.

 

[Sarpedon]

My point is that in response to Tom's question you brought things in from a different book of the Bible to support your cause, while previously castigating us for doing the same.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Deuteronomy 20:1-4 and Joshua 17:18-18:1

Ummm ... no.

At the beginning of Judges 1, the first line is "After the death of Joshua", so the fight referenced in Judges was a different and later war than the one referenced in Joshua, which he is a part of. They were both against the Caananities, but there's nothing in Joshua which has to do with the fight in Judges which is under discussion.

Deutoronomy mentions the word "chariot", but other than that I don't see how that applies to account of the battles which are happening in Judges.

 

[Wiploc]

The misconception is so common, I've never heard of it.

Well I have. On nearly every atheist forum I've visited, including this one.

[ETA] Here and Here for example.

The first link yields this gem: "As far as the Bible, fuck it. Fuck it and the iron chariot it rode in on."

The second link is to this: "If everything about God in the Bible were true? I'd build an iron chariot and kick his butt. God can't stand up to iron chariots."

 

[Sarpedon]

Hmm... he says 'every atheist forum he's been on' but then gives examples of only this forum? I was hoping to meet some new people.

 

[Wiploc]

One of the most common misconceptions held by atheists is the case of the iron chariots.

I bring this up myself. If you believe both that god is omnipotent and god can't defeat iron chariots, then you believe something contradictory. You shouldn't believe both of those; it's not logical.

A lot of Christians do believe both of those. A lot of Christianity isn't logical.

I speak of the "SCG, the standard Christian god," who has characteristics like these:

• Can do anything, but can't defeat iron chariots.
• Is all-merciful, but tortures people forever.
• Is possible to see but not possible to see.

People who believe in a god like that are irrational.

I don't see how the rest of your post is relevant.

I don't see how I have a "misconception."

 

[Wiploc]

Mark 10:27 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is ... Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but
not with God; all things are possible with God." ...
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Originally Posted by Judges 1:19

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

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With god, all things are possible. Judah was with god. Therefore Judah should have been able to drive out the iron chariots.

But, in any case, the criticism is of the god of the Christians, not the god of the bible. Regardless of what the bible says, to the extent that Christians believe in an omnipotent god who can't defeat iron chariots, they are wrong.

 

[skepticalbip]

Well I have. On nearly every atheist forum I've visited, including this one.

[ETA] Here and Here for example.

The first link yields this gem: "As far as the Bible, fuck it. Fuck it and the iron chariot it rode in on."

The second link is to this: "If everything about God in the Bible were true? I'd build an iron chariot and kick his butt. God can't stand up to iron chariots."

I like that. I had never realized how much like a comic book hero this Christian god is. Comic book heroes have to have an Achilles heel so they can engage in fights where they could loose. Superman can be defeated with Kryptonite and the Christian god can be defeated with iron chariots.

 

[DLH]

One of the most common misconceptions held by atheists is the case of the iron chariots.

I bring this up myself. If you believe both that god is omnipotent and god can't defeat iron chariots, then you believe something contradictory. You shouldn't believe both of those; it's not logical.

A lot of Christians do believe both of those. A lot of Christianity isn't logical.

I speak of the "SCG, the standard Christian god," who has characteristics like these:

• Can do anything, but can't defeat iron chariots.
• Is all-merciful, but tortures people forever.
• Is possible to see but not possible to see.

People who believe in a god like that are irrational.

I don't see how the rest of your post is relevant.

I don't see how I have a "misconception."

First, the omni's. Mostly religious nonsense. If I say to you that a creature is omnivorous, what does that mean? That it will eat metal, rocks, glass, and thermonuclear weaponry? No. In a similar sense omnipotence and omniscient don't mean absolutely what they are often thought. Omnipotence: God can do everything? God can't lie. No, God can do anything that he wills within his purpose, will and characteristics. Omniscience: God can get to know anything he wishes to know, but he doesn't know all things before hand. He didn't know Adam and Eve had sinned until he had asked them, he didn't know if the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were as bad as everyone was saying until he sent the angels to investigate. Omnipresence isn't to any degree supported by scripture. God isn't everywhere all the time. He has a fixed position in Heaven and is often mentioned elsewhere, like Solomon's temple immediately upon completion or a mountain with Moses, or in hell in a figurative sense.

Secondly . . .

• Tt wasn't that God couldn't defeat the iron chariots, as he did later when the Israelites regained their faith.
• The Bible doesn't teach hell or a literal torture of souls
• It is impossible for man to see God and live, but it is possible to see spirit creatures who have come to earth in human form to represent him.

 

[DLH]

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Originally Posted by Judges 1:19

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

[SIZE=-1]
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With god, all things are possible. Judah was with god. Therefore Judah should have been able to drive out the iron chariots.

But, in any case, the criticism is of the god of the Christians, not the god of the bible. Regardless of what the bible says, to the extent that Christians believe in an omnipotent god who can't defeat iron chariots, they are wrong.

I don't agree with that earlier interpretation. I thought it was interesting and it had never occurred to me nor do I recall ever having heard it before, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. Israel's faith wasn't with Judah, or Moses, or David it was with Jehovah God. So, if they had met the requirements for his fighting for them they would have been able to, and indeed later were able to deal with them.