The Laws of Sexual Attraction

[rousseau]

For a bit more of a casual thread, I was thinking about some of the sexual dynamics I've come across and how they've impacted my life.

This article, for example, suggests that men tend to be physically attracted to women with the most fertile years, and women tend to be physically attracted to older men who are more successful than them.

Nothing really mind-blowing there, but it is interesting how instinctual and consistent this is in our collective psyche. In my own life I rarely come across older women paying any attention to me, but plenty of younger women, to the extent that I would call it something like a law. That if you rounded up a number of dynamics you could almost predict physical and emotional attraction between two people.

Given that, I wonder what other kind of 'laws' there are? Behavioral or physical traits that we're consistently attracted to?

Apologies for being a bit hetero-normative, I don't know anything about homosexual relationships, but feel free to discuss those too.

 

[bigfield]

I'm a bit put off by the idea of calling these things laws--they are more like norms, with a lot of people who don't conform--but I see what you're getting at.

Here's one: women tend to be attracted to taller men. And from what I understand, tallness is relative to the average male height, so what was considered tall in 18th century Europe is now considered average, and what is considered tall in Canada might be considered to be freakishly tall in Japan. Context can be even more localised than that: a tall man becomes a short man in the company of a basketball team, and a short man becomes a tall man in the company of jockeys or motorcycle racers.

That if you rounded up a number of dynamics you could almost predict physical and emotional attraction between two people.

I think that would work best for people who are very average in many ways, or who neatly conform to some type you've studied in depth. The less normal someone is, the less predictive power you are going to have. That's why mentalists screen out the vast majority of their audience when picking a volunteer for a cold-reading trick.

That also applies to our understanding of ourselves. The less typical you are, and the less typical your environment is, the less these norms will inform you of your qualities. If I've learned anything from my misadventures it's that I made too many presumptions based on things I read. It's important to understand the limits of your scientific and philosophical knowledge, or to put it another way it's important .to know when you shouldn't try to predict something.

 

[Politesse]

"Law" is certainly stretching it; most of the data those sorts of studies come originate in self-report, or small-scale experiments of the usual psychological sort that are mostly conducted on people of a relatively narrow cultural background. So while they undoubtedly describe a certain segment of global society quite well, I would be wary of generalizing it to a "law" applying to all human societies in all times, with implications that would please the evo-bio crowd. Sexual attraction obviously has some biological components, but we also see the forms it takes seemingly varying quite a lot between cultures and across time. I tend to lean on the social constructivist side anyway, so this may be my professional bias talking to some degree. But still: I think if there's one thing history teaches us on this subject, it's that "norms" of sexual attraction are much more variable than most people realize before they look into it.

 

[rousseau]

Maybe I should have used 'norm' rather than 'law', but I don't know that either of these terms quite get it right. Yes sexuality is extremely fluid and cultural influences abound - but something like Bigfield's mention of height, or the male preoccupation with youth and fertility seem like largely embedded, inescapable instincts. Maybe even something like attraction to symmetry may be present across every culture. Not quite a 'law', but maybe an overwhelming tendency that can be overridden by the ultimate desire for sex

AKA we can break the rules if doing so is our best option, or maybe if we fall on the extremes of some type of preference.

 

[ronburgundy]

As with others, I think "law" is highly problematic and in fact really shouldn't be used with any human psychological state of behavior. Some of that is b/c it's near impossible to get highly accurate measurements of the variables needed for the near perfectly predictive equations that constitute "laws". And part of it is that human behavior is so impacted by context and that context in includes every thing a person was exposed to up to the moment. Rocks don't learn and remember so it's easier to have laws of their "behavior". Humans remember and they learn better than anything in the known universe, and learning means that every experience chance how every subsequent experience impacts behavior.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm a bit put off by the idea of calling these things laws--they are more like norms, with a lot of people who don't conform--but I see what you're getting at.

Seconded. This got me thinking--most of the relationships I know of that do not conform to this involve couples that formed from proximity rather than a normal dating situation.

 

[southernhybrid]

You really need a woman's opinion. First of all, I strongly disagree with the claims in the link and secondly, I would say that what attracts people to each other is cultural, not set in law.

Prior to the past several decades, it may have been more common for women to be attracted to older men who were able to provide for them. Of course, there are still some of these women around. But, I married a man who is three years younger than me, and I've known many other women who were attracted and married to younger men. I once had an NP who was 17 years older than her husband, so no, I don't think it's always the case that women seek out older men. If anything women prefer men in the same age range as they are, so lets' say 5 years younger or older works.

Women in Westernized countries are becoming much more independent and capable of supporting themselves. I went back to school to become a nurse during my first marriage because I wanted a career that would always allow me the freedom not to become dependent on a man. So, now that more women are professionals as well as simply capable of earring their own money, there is far less desire or need to look for an older man who can support them. Culture changes.

When I was single, most of the men who found me attractive were younger than I am. In fact, even as recently as two years ago, I've had younger men flirt with me, not knowing that I am happily married and not interested. I worked in an assisted living facility where their where almost always romances going on. Most of the time, the men were younger than the women, including one or two women in their 80s having affairs with men in their 60s or 70s. Of course, living in such conditions does limit your options. How do I know about these affairs? The women trusted me and told me the lurid details of their sex lives. Most common complaint was that the men had erection problems, but they still enjoyed the "heavy petting". ( that was their term not mine ) But I digress.

It does seem that when older men divorce, they often seek out younger women, but I don't know if this is always the case. My brother in law dates younger women, after his wife, who was 9 years older than him, got up and left him one day. It does seem common that wealthy men do go after 'trophy wives". I would never want to be a trophy wife, nor was I ever attracted to a man with lots of money. They tend to be shallow and self centered imo. I don't think most women care about that these days.

In countries were women are still very oppressed, they are often forced into marriages with much older men who can support them. That's not what these women want, but they don't have the freedom to choose their own mates. Anyone read about the "honor Killing" recently in Iran? A woman had fallen in love with a man her own age, but her father disapproved and killed her. So, women in parts of the world still aren't allowed to choose their own mates.

I would say that men do seem more interested in the physical attractiveness, while women look for other things in a man. My husband claims that he fell in love with me at first sight. I'm skeptical of that, but he was obviously physically attracted to me, while I wasn't at all physically attracted to him at first. I was attracted to his sense of humor, andhis affectionate and generous nature, all things that my first husband lacked. As I got to know him better, I realized that we had a lot in common and that's what sealed the relationship.

And let me add this. I was reading a book about chimps, as I love reading about my fellow great apes. Male chimps are more attracted to the older females. It could be because they've already proven they are fertile or maybe they want a female who has some experience. Unfortunately, we can't ask the male chimps exactly why they prefer the older females, but they do. Of course, bonobos will fuck anyone with a pulse, but bonobos are a matriarchal society which has used sex as a way to keep the peace. Again, I digress.

In modern Western culture, I seriously doubt one can make any generalizations about what attracts women to men or men to women. There are far too many factors to consider.

I'm not buying into the idea that women are attracted to tall men either, although most women probably want a man who is taller than themselves. My sister has been happily married to a man who is a little bit shorter than her. One of the most popular boys when I was in the 9th grade was about 5ft. tall. Again, don't generalize. I've been attracted to short and tall men when I was single. Height never entered my mind. My husband is quite a bit taller than me, and that comes in handy when I can't reach a high shelf in the grocery store, but otherwise, it's inconsequential. .

 

[rousseau]

You really need a woman's opinion. First of all, I strongly disagree with the claims in the link and secondly, I would say that what attracts people to each other is cultural, not set in law.

Prior to the past several decades, it may have been more common for women to be attracted to older men who were able to provide for them. Of course, there are still some of these women around. But, I married a man who is three years younger than me, and I've known many other women who were attracted and married to younger men. I once had an NP who was 17 years older than her husband, so no, I don't think it's always the case that women seek out older men. If anything women prefer men in the same age range as they are, so lets' say 5 years younger or older works.

I believe you misinterpreted. It's not about finding men who can support them, it's about men who are more successful than them. There's a big difference. The reasoning behind this is that women are more valuable than men when it comes to reproduction, so more in demand on the 'market' so to speak. That's a quick and dirty explanation, but suffice to say it means that it's common for women to 'marry up'. No matter how much the woman makes herself, most of the time her husband will make either the same, or more than her.

But as others have suggested 'law' is probably a bit too strong, exceptions abound.

 

[skepticalbip]

You really need a woman's opinion. First of all, I strongly disagree with the claims in the link and secondly, I would say that what attracts people to each other is cultural, not set in law.

Prior to the past several decades, it may have been more common for women to be attracted to older men who were able to provide for them. Of course, there are still some of these women around. But, I married a man who is three years younger than me, and I've known many other women who were attracted and married to younger men. I once had an NP who was 17 years older than her husband, so no, I don't think it's always the case that women seek out older men. If anything women prefer men in the same age range as they are, so lets' say 5 years younger or older works.

I believe you misinterpreted. It's not about finding men who can support them, it's about men who are more successful than them. There's a big difference. The reasoning behind this is that women are more valuable than men when it comes to reproduction, so more in demand on the 'market' so to speak. That's a quick and dirty explanation, but suffice to say it means that it's common for women to 'marry up'. No matter how much the woman makes herself, most of the time her husband will make either the same, or more than her.

But as others have suggested 'law' is probably a bit too strong, exceptions abound.

I think you are placing too much emphasis on finances. I think that generally the attraction for women is more security, whatever the particular woman means by security; life mate, attention, strength, financial, etc.

A general understanding of human nature is that a major driver of interactions is that men want sex and women want security. Of course, these aren't the only drivers.

 

[rousseau]

You really need a woman's opinion. First of all, I strongly disagree with the claims in the link and secondly, I would say that what attracts people to each other is cultural, not set in law.

Prior to the past several decades, it may have been more common for women to be attracted to older men who were able to provide for them. Of course, there are still some of these women around. But, I married a man who is three years younger than me, and I've known many other women who were attracted and married to younger men. I once had an NP who was 17 years older than her husband, so no, I don't think it's always the case that women seek out older men. If anything women prefer men in the same age range as they are, so lets' say 5 years younger or older works.

I believe you misinterpreted. It's not about finding men who can support them, it's about men who are more successful than them. There's a big difference. The reasoning behind this is that women are more valuable than men when it comes to reproduction, so more in demand on the 'market' so to speak. That's a quick and dirty explanation, but suffice to say it means that it's common for women to 'marry up'. No matter how much the woman makes herself, most of the time her husband will make either the same, or more than her.

But as others have suggested 'law' is probably a bit too strong, exceptions abound.

I think you are placing too much emphasis on finances. I think that generally the attraction for women is more security, whatever the particular woman means by security; life mate, attention, strength, financial, etc.

A general understanding of human nature is that a major driver of interactions is that men want sex and women want security. Of course, these aren't the only drivers.

Of course the whole picture is much more complex, I'm only suggesting that this is one facet of the overall dynamic.

 

[J842P]

I'm not buying into the idea that women are attracted to tall men either, although most women probably want a man who is taller than themselves. My sister has been happily married to a man who is a little bit shorter than her. One of the most popular boys when I was in the 9th grade was about 5ft. tall. Again, don't generalize. I've been attracted to short and tall men when I was single. Height never entered my mind. My husband is quite a bit taller than me, and that comes in handy when I can't reach a high shelf in the grocery store, but otherwise, it's inconsequential. .

I'm sorry, but just because you know such and such a person, or you claim to not be interested in such a thing, it is quite obvious that women prefer taller men. As a man who is shorter than average, I get straight up told this all the time.

If I go on tinder and put my actual height, I can literally swipe right for weeks without a single match. And I would say that I am otherwise decently attractive. And I'm not even that short, 5'6''. Of course, I'm short. But at least I'm not 5'5'' or 5'4''. That would be pretty bad. But it would be a different world if I were 5'8''. Let alone 6'0''.

I don't understand why women always have to deny or downplay that women care about looks, sometimes like with height, they care a lot. Like, seriously, you should question why you feel the need to downplay this. How many times in your life has a guy told you they would never consider you for a potential partner because of your height? Has that ever even happened to you? Because I know it's happened to me many, many times. And it has happened to all the other short guys I know. Women will just tell you in their dating profiles nowadays. Which I appreciate.

 

[southernhybrid]

I'm not buying into the idea that women are attracted to tall men either, although most women probably want a man who is taller than themselves. My sister has been happily married to a man who is a little bit shorter than her. One of the most popular boys when I was in the 9th grade was about 5ft. tall. Again, don't generalize. I've been attracted to short and tall men when I was single. Height never entered my mind. My husband is quite a bit taller than me, and that comes in handy when I can't reach a high shelf in the grocery store, but otherwise, it's inconsequential. .

I'm sorry, but just because you know such and such a person, or you claim to not be interested in such a thing, it is quite obvious that women prefer taller men. As a man who is shorter than average, I get straight up told this all the time.

If I go on tinder and put my actual height, I can literally swipe right for weeks without a single match. And I would say that I am otherwise decently attractive. And I'm not even that short, 5'6''. Of course, I'm short. But at least I'm not 5'5'' or 5'4''. That would be pretty bad. But it would be a different world if I were 5'8''. Let alone 6'0''.

I don't understand why women always have to deny or downplay that women care about looks, sometimes like with height, they care a lot. Like, seriously, you should question why you feel the need to downplay this. How many times in your life has a guy told you they would never consider you for a potential partner because of your height? Has that ever even happened to you? Because I know it's happened to me many, many times. And it has happened to all the other short guys I know. Women will just tell you in their dating profiles nowadays. Which I appreciate.

I'm just sharing my opinion, based on my own experiences and it might even be a generational thing for all I Know. In my day, we didn't have tinder. We met in school, or in bars.

But, sure. You're probably right when it comes to men who are very short. Since I am a petite woman, height never mattered to me because very few men are shorter than I am. But, I get your point. If a woman is tall, she probably wants a man who is at least as tall as she is. That would be a problem for shorter men. I guess that's considered more socially acceptable or more traditional.

And, of course women do consider looks to some extent. I just don't think looks are as important to women as they are to men. That's something that might have always been the case. I've just never cared as much about looks as I did about other qualities. And "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". That's for sure. Some women prefer a clean cut man, while I've always liked men with long hair and beards. I'm married to one of those, but when I met him, he was simply nerdy looking. His looks didn't attract me at all. Over time that changed. So looks might matter some, but when it comes to how women perceive male attractiveness, it varies greatly. I was more attracted to my husband because he was very self confident and funny. His became more physically attractive to me over time. I think that's pretty common.

The point I was trying to make is that we can't stereotype what people find attractive, as we are individuals. What might have been common in the past, doesn't always translate to the present.

 

[thebeave]

I'm not buying into the idea that women are attracted to tall men either, although most women probably want a man who is taller than themselves. My sister has been happily married to a man who is a little bit shorter than her. One of the most popular boys when I was in the 9th grade was about 5ft. tall. Again, don't generalize. I've been attracted to short and tall men when I was single. Height never entered my mind. My husband is quite a bit taller than me, and that comes in handy when I can't reach a high shelf in the grocery store, but otherwise, it's inconsequential. .

I'm sorry, but just because you know such and such a person, or you claim to not be interested in such a thing, it is quite obvious that women prefer taller men. As a man who is shorter than average, I get straight up told this all the time.

If I go on tinder and put my actual height, I can literally swipe right for weeks without a single match. And I would say that I am otherwise decently attractive. And I'm not even that short, 5'6''. Of course, I'm short. But at least I'm not 5'5'' or 5'4''. That would be pretty bad. But it would be a different world if I were 5'8''. Let alone 6'0''.

I don't understand why women always have to deny or downplay that women care about looks, sometimes like with height, they care a lot. Like, seriously, you should question why you feel the need to downplay this. How many times in your life has a guy told you they would never consider you for a potential partner because of your height? Has that ever even happened to you? Because I know it's happened to me many, many times. And it has happened to all the other short guys I know. Women will just tell you in their dating profiles nowadays. Which I appreciate.

Yep. I'm in the 5-10 to 5-11 range, so its not really an issue for me, but pretty much all shorter men I know have dealt with this. Most recently, my last girlfriend would tell me about the online dating adventures of one of her co-workers. She went out with this one guy (a teacher) who was a little shorter than her, and her nickname for him was "Tiny Teacher". Apparently, he was a decent guy overall, but she couldn't get past his height so she ended it. Its always kind of astounded me how it seems to be OK for women to say "no short men" in their dating profiles, but a guy who says "no small chested women" is considered a superficial jerk.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR3YR1ZTonc[/YOUTUBE]

 

[bigfield]

And, of course women do consider looks to some extent. I just don't think looks are as important to women as they are to men. That's something that might have always been the case. I've just never cared as much about looks as I did about other qualities. And "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". That's for sure. Some women prefer a clean cut man, while I've always liked men with long hair and beards. I'm married to one of those, but when I met him, he was simply nerdy looking. His looks didn't attract me at all. Over time that changed. So looks might matter some, but when it comes to how women perceive male attractiveness, it varies greatly. I was more attracted to my husband because he was very self confident and funny. His became more physically attractive to me over time. I think that's pretty common.

Since you mention confidence, it occurs to me that a man's height might just be a proxy for other things that are attractive, like confidence, or perhaps a lack of repulsive behaviour like a Napoleon complex.

In which case, short men only have themselves to blame for being unattractive.

 

[southernhybrid]

Jesus fucking Christ. I'm sorry I even mentioned height . And come to think of it that very short guy who was so popular with the girls when I was in the 9th grade, was very self confident, so that may have been what the girls found attractive about him. My first husband wasn't tall, but when I first met him, he seemed so self confident and smart. ( he wasn't nearly as smart as I thought originally ) I was only 19 and very inexperienced when I met him so I didn't realize a lot of things about him until we were married. So, people do frequently make mistakes when they choose a mate.

I think that maybe the problem with meeting people online is that you only see a photo of them and description of what they like etc. I've also noticed from reading about dating experiences, simply out of curiosity, that many adults ( under 50 ) don't take the time to get to know the other person well before they write them off

. If the first date doesn't go as well as they hoped, they give up. It took me almost two months to feel like my husband was probably the one for me. The first date wasn't great, but I liked him and wanted to get to know him better. It takes more than a couple of dates to realize whether or not you're suited for each other. After almost two months, I asked my husband if he believed in god. When he said no, that pretty much sealed the deal for me. . So, it's not just about height, age or physical attractiveness. it's about having important things in common, having similar values and similar interests, while being able to overlook each other's weaknesses. It's complicated.

 

[rousseau]

Yea we need to delineate between I know a few counter-examples, from the more scientific this is true of [x] percent of couples. People are complex and multi-faceted, so none of this is going to be an unbreakable rule, but there are definitely many aspects of our physical and emotional disposition that others are instinctually attracted to.

I mentioned this above when I said:

Not quite a 'law', but maybe an overwhelming tendency that can be overridden by the ultimate desire for sex

Law is too strong, but I don't think calling these desires fully cultural fits the bill either. When it comes to reproduction and evolution the ultimate goal is to produce a baby, so most people will do this by any means they can. If their only option is someone shorter than them, or someone who's unattractive, or someone who has a disability, it can still happen.

But where the law comes into play (for lack of a better term) is that their instinct may drive them to seek someone who is as tall as possible or who is attractive as possible, or whatever the desired trait is. So a woman might settle for someone slightly shorter, but not significantly shorter. In this way you get a kind of bell curve where people who meet the ideal type get the lion's share of the attention, while the further you are from the ideal type the less attention you get.

This is for instance, why it's very hard to find unattractive women in their fertile years, why short men are more rare than tall men, and so on. Because these instincts end up breeding this specific type of person.

 

[thebeave]

Jesus fucking Christ. I'm sorry I even mentioned height . And come to think of it that very short guy who was so popular with the girls when I was in the 9th grade, was very self confident, so that may have been what the girls found attractive about him. My first husband wasn't tall, but when I first met him, he seemed so self confident and smart. ( he wasn't nearly as smart as I thought originally ) I was only 19 and very inexperienced when I met him so I didn't realize a lot of things about him until we were married. So, people do frequently make mistakes when they choose a mate.

I think that maybe the problem with meeting people online is that you only see a photo of them and description of what they like etc. I've also noticed from reading about dating experiences, simply out of curiosity, that many adults ( under 50 ) don't take the time to get to know the other person well before they write them off

. If the first date doesn't go as well as they hoped, they give up. It took me almost two months to feel like my husband was probably the one for me. The first date wasn't great, but I liked him and wanted to get to know him better. It takes more than a couple of dates to realize whether or not you're suited for each other. After almost two months, I asked my husband if he believed in god. When he said no, that pretty much sealed the deal for me. . So, it's not just about height, age or physical attractiveness. it's about having important things in common, having similar values and similar interests, while being able to overlook each other's weaknesses. It's complicated.

Yes, height isn't everything and a short man can sometimes land a taller, beautiful woman. Like this guy here. He's 89 years old and his beautiful, taller wife just gave birth. So it does happen. There's just no explaining true love sometimes.

https://www.tmz.com/2020/07/02/bernie-ecclestone-89-dad-wife-birth-child-son-ace-formula-1-f1/