The Manson Gang and parole requests

[fast]

Can someone advise me how to delete this or any of my posts? I've looked in FAQ and all over the edit function here but have found no "delete post" function so far.

Users don't have the option of deleting their posts. You have a short span of time to edit recent posts, but beyond that, what you write stays apart of permanent record.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Are these people really a danger to society, or are we just being vindictive -- at taxpayer cost?

It seems incredibly naive to think they'd no longer be a danger to society if they were let out.

 

[Valjean]

So why ever let criminals out of jail? You never know....

These people weren't career criminals like Manson. The mental 'defect' that led to their immersion in the cult is shared by most of the population. Almost anyone could be induced to kill strangers on command -- just look at the military. Remember Zimbardo's prison experiment or Milgram's compliance with authority experiments?

We're all "a danger to society" given the right conditions. Why would you think the Manson family members were still enthralled to a decades-dead cult? In fact, wouldn't you expect "once bitten, twice shy" to apply, in this situation?

 

[Playball40]

So why ever let criminals out of jail? You never know....

These people weren't career criminals like Manson. The mental 'defect' that led to their immersion in the cult is shared by most of the population. Almost anyone could be induced to kill strangers on command -- just look at the military. Remember Zimbardo's prison experiment or Milgram's compliance with authority experiments?

We're all "a danger to society" given the right conditions. Why would you think the Manson family members were still enthralled to a decades-dead cult? In fact, wouldn't you expect "once bitten, twice shy" to apply, in this situation?

Like bath salts/Flakka.

 

[ideologyhunter]

As an analogy: Nathan Leopold, of the Loeb/Leopold murder case -- the very definition of premeditated murder, with the victim a boy lured off the street -- showed exemplary behavior in prison and was in fact paroled 34 years after the crime. He moved to Puerto Rico, became a hospital orderly and worked with the health department on such problems as care for leprosy victims. His case was the media equivalent of the Manson case in the 60's -- lurid, lengthy coverage with the added shock (for the 1920's) of homosexuality. But he was judged after three decades, whether by a parole board or a governor, I'm not sure, to be rehabilitated, and he justified the faith invested in his character. These cases need to be assessed by reasonable people using critical judgment and not determined by Fox 'News' or the National Enquirer. Unfortunately, it would take a good deal of courage by parole boards to even consider Van Houten's merits, whatever they may be -- and the public outrage might well force a new board to be chosen.

 

[blastula]

Can someone advise me how to delete this or any of my posts? I've looked in FAQ and all over the edit function here but have found no "delete post" function so far.

Users don't have the option of deleting their posts. You have a short span of time to edit recent posts, but beyond that, what you write stays apart of permanent record.

Permanent record? Shit, now I'll never get accepted into a good forum.

 

[DBT]

You could try appealing to the management to have posts deleted after the edit time has expired

 

[DrZoidberg]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/leslie-van-houten-parole-manson-killings

The latest one is Leslie Van Houten. She was not there for Tate, but the next day's La Bianca murders. The article suggests she did not kill, but she stabbed the body afterwards and, of course, went along.

It makes me ponder the pros and cons of the parole request for them or anyone.

• When would you say yes?
• What would make you say no?
• Can anyone be rehabilitated enough to no longer be a danger to society?
• Is that enough to let them re-join society?
• Is there a non-rehabilitative reason for keeping them in jail?
• Is there a way to administer the death penalty decision with low or no risk of killing innocent people?

Thoughts on this case or the broader concept?

The 60'ies is over now. All their crimes were very much part of the hippie culture. Well and truly dead. Also, all these people were young. 19 year olds are still children to a large degree. The frontal cortex isn't fully formed until about 23 years of age. All teenagers, with some encouragement, can functionally be psycopaths. Also, people tend to calm down with age. It's pretty cruel to punish a teenager like an adult. Everybody makes mistakes in life. Especially as teenagers. She was never given a fair chance in life.

So I think there's zero risk of re-offence. That's not why they're kept in jail. They're kept in jail as a deterrent to others who are planing to do similar things. The problem is that it's not a deterrent. But we still feel good about badness being punished.

So the question should be, does it make you happy keeping her in jail. If yes, keep her in jail. If not, she can be released. I personally don't care.

 

[another1]

Van Houten damaged LSD culture irreversibly. The image of it mostly. For that, she should be kept in prison until she dies. But nah, she is in no way a threat, because I paid to have her college educated. She understands what she did now. She could become a good member of the society she already helped ruin.

Her immense fame could be used to do something good for the world, like build a mansion and drink expensive wine in a hot tub. Technically there isn't a threat in releasing her. The only real threat is in the back of every prom queens mind. Killing is Okay if you have a crazy boyfriend, kinda thing.

I say screw her. Let her rot. She died when she was a young woman. The shell that remains is paraded in these quote parole hearings to remind us that LSD is evil. That is all she is in my opinion.

 

[Valjean]

The 60'ies is over now. All their crimes were very much part of the hippie culture. Well and truly dead.

Hippies were people who rejected the social norms of the day for a lifestyle embracing Christ's values of, peace, love, tolerance, &c. The Manson family may have looked like Hippies, but they were a cult led by a psychopath.

Also, all these people were young. 19 year olds are still children to a large degree. The frontal cortex isn't fully formed until about 23 years of age. All teenagers, with some encouragement, can functionally be psycopaths.

I wouldn't confine it to teenagers, but I agree most people can be relieved of their moral and social constraints fairly easily. Cf: Milgram, Zimbardo or Arendt.

So I think there's zero risk of re-offence. That's not why they're kept in jail. They're kept in jail as a deterrent to others who are planing to do similar things. The problem is that it's not a deterrent. But we still feel good about badness being punished.

They're kept in jail out of vindictiveness. To be generous, they're kept in jail to assuage the ire of those connected to the case, or those who are simply intolerant of non-conformity.

So the question should be, does it make you happy keeping her in jail. If yes, keep her in jail. If not, she can be released. I personally don't care.

In other words, jail is appropriate for those who annoy us.

 

[Valjean]

Van Houten damaged LSD culture irreversibly. The image of it mostly. For that, she should be kept in prison until she dies. But nah, she is in no way a threat, because I paid to have her college educated. She understands what she did now. She could become a good member of the society she already helped ruin.

Her immense fame could be used to do something good for the world, like build a mansion and drink expensive wine in a hot tub. Technically there isn't a threat in releasing her. The only real threat is in the back of every prom queens mind. Killing is Okay if you have a crazy boyfriend, kinda thing.

I say screw her. Let her rot. She died when she was a young woman. The shell that remains is paraded in these quote parole hearings to remind us that LSD is evil. That is all she is in my opinion.

You seem to be a very hateful person, another1. You condemn her -- apparently out of pure vindictiveness -- for ruining LSD culture. Then you condemn her for a crime in her youth that, apparently, irrevocably destroyed her value as a human being -- leaving her a mere shell, to be left to rot.
You seem to have no more respect for life than the creepy crawlers who did the murders.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hippies were people who rejected the social norms of the day for a lifestyle embracing Christ's values of, peace, love, tolerance, &c. The Manson family may have looked like Hippies, but they were a cult led by a psychopath.

The film Hair doesn't sum up the totality of the 60'ies counter culture. You, Sir, are wrong. Hippies questioned cultural norms in all manner of unhealthy ways. Some were violent. Quite a few actually. Just check out terrorist attacks from that time. Sharp increase. A big theme in the hippie culture was utopianism. And those utopias could be all over the map.

Nah, Manson's family fit right in their with the rest of them.

Also, all these people were young. 19 year olds are still children to a large degree. The frontal cortex isn't fully formed until about 23 years of age. All teenagers, with some encouragement, can functionally be psycopaths.

I wouldn't confine it to teenagers, but I agree most people can be relieved of their moral and social constraints fairly easily. Cf: Milgram, Zimbardo or Arendt.

One little note. Zimbardo's work was cut to shreds soon after publication. Did not survive peer review. Turned out, was pseudo-scientific nonsense. It has only survived in the public consciousness from pop-psychology. While the effect is real, the magnitude of it, as shown by Zimbardo is way out of proportion. Milgram's and Arendt's was more rigorous.

So the question should be, does it make you happy keeping her in jail. If yes, keep her in jail. If not, she can be released. I personally don't care.

In other words, jail is appropriate for those who annoy us.

Apparently it is. Because we're doing it. I just thought I'd point out that some norms are good. We want those re-enforced. Norms and normative society isn't all bad.

 

[another1]

You condemn her -- apparently out of pure vindictiveness

Think how much better the world would be if she hadn't stabbed those rich people. Remember the real victims that took slightly longer to die? She stabbed every happy little hippy on the planet and laughed while playing in their blood. While she was busy giggling and slapping around in the thickening puddles, her crime was being laced into anti drug doctrine. The parole hearings have been used as implantation devices ever since. We have short attention spans, so parole hearings are convenient in that way.

I don't have many vindictive bones in my body. I feel pity for Van Houten. She has been used and abused since the day she met the Mansons. Sad story, and sadder still - the fact that they won't let it end. She should have done the noble thing and end it in prison. Every one of them should have quietly committed suicide before they were sentenced. If life truly is, as their vague philosophy seemed to suggest, it wouldn't have mattered anyway. The fame and attention made them betray their half-baked, bullshit values. Secretly all Charlie ever wanted was fame and attention anyway, so everything they believed was a lie. Why aren't these people dead yet?

You seem to have no more respect for life than

I respect life enough to know that hers should have ended decades ago. I respect culture enough to learn when, and how a culture I appreciate is destroyed. I respect life very much, serorni. The things that shape life are important to me. Like things that take 50 years to happen. On a 2-D level, sure, let the twat out of prison. That part doesn't really matter.

You're the one defending a brutal murderer here. Unframe her mugshot and look again. Leslie Van Houten is already dead. No offense, but this "vindictiveness" is what respecting life actually looks like. Trying to look like you respect life is a little something like crying over Van Houten's "rights".

 

[Bronzeage]

I have many flaws, but vindictiveness is not one of them. I will not be the man who casts the first stone at a 66 year old woman for something she did at age 19. When I consider the many crimes I have committed and completely escaped justice or any kind of consequence, there is no room in my conscience to continue her punishment after 44 years.

She may deserve to die in prison, but who among us would want what we deserve if it meant cutting ourselves off from mercy?

The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest. It becomes
The thronèd monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings,
But mercy is above this sceptered sway.
It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings.
It is an attribute to God himself.
And earthly power doth then show likest God’s
When mercy seasons justice.

The quality of mercy is not strained. This means, no matter how far it spreads, it has the same strength and power. When we show mercy, we lose nothing. It costs nothing and gives everything. In my life, I have been shown much mercy and I will not hoard it.

 

[another1]

Yeah they would probably pass a one time law that allows public Crucifixion if they found out all of my past deeds.

Poor woman deserves mercy, but her brand should die. Know what I mean by brand? The Manson thing surfaces every now and then. Usually because of parole hearings. In the 90's there was a full-on play reenactment, complete with fake knives, synthetic blood and stupid music. That lasted for about 5 years. I got bored seeing what the idea does on a widespread surface. Know what I mean? LSD does not make people kill. LSD can prevent billions of deaths, and it could have. But because of what the Mansons did, we live in a society of people who have either had too much, or not enough LSD. The possibility of ever reaching the right zone was made impossible by people like the Mansons. There is more to it than that, but that splains' why I'm frustrated with those parole hearings. I think they all should have died before trial. The world would be so much better.

I get lost in those Shakespeare lines. I did read them 3x but no go. I always thought that stuff was confusing.

Charlie said that now is the only thing that is real, so since it has been so long since she screwed up, yeah. There are some peculiar things the Mansons have said. They all apply here perfectly actually. The crazy ass shit they said supports the mercy Van Houten supposedly deserves. There is also a very compassionate argument people make. Rational. Reasons she should be free, and the reasons make just as much sense as the crazy talk from back in the day. It has all just been reworded. I don't know really.

What has she said her plan would be upon release? Assuming the disappointment doesn't kill her before her next hearing, I mean. I saw an 18 year old kid come back from being sentenced to life, for beating a homeless man to death with a bicycle. I gave him some Klonopin because he had this look on his face. May have been the Klonopin, but before they moved him to convicted pod, he did look like a dead person. His whole demeanor was death. I can only imagine how it feels to live that hell as long as Van Houten has. It must really suck, even with thousands of fans and support.