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The Morality of Atheism

A “celestial panopticon” is pretty good. (y) Wish I’d thought of that.
It is a Hitchens thing.

*******

Arguing this points with religious believers is like point at something with a dog. They just stand there looking at your finger rather than what you are pointing at.
 
God's "laws" are not only not 'enforced', whatever that implies, they're revocable, when the editorial staff gets new hires. Circumcision is introduced as part of an everlasting covenant in Genesis, but it's an option that is discouraged in the NT. Dietary laws are laid out with great seriousness in the OT, but in Paul's words, 'Eat what you will.' In fact, he says, in the time of faith, "the Law is no longer in charge of us."
In the Weird Ten Commandments in Exodus 34, the list that is actually called The Ten Commandments, God has come down in a cloud and tells Moses he is going to be the god of Israel but they must follow his laws. This list is a doozy -- why didn't Roy Moore post this one in his courtroom? Maybe because it demands that you keep the Festival of Unleavened Bread, buy back first-born donkeys if you've sold them, always have an offering (sacrifice) when you appear before God, keep both the Harvest Festival and the Festival of Shelters, and for Pete's sake don't simmer sheep or goat meat in their mother's milk. It's almost as if tribal custom is the basis of the moral code. We can't have that.
 
Hi, to @bilby , you said: "Regardless, the religious content of ancient writings is not particularly valuable, its value lies in what it tells us about the life and times of the writers."

This seems to be demonstrably false based merely on the sheer numbers of humans who did and do find value in these texts.

I find great value in religious texts, especially in comparative terms. I may also experience some kind of emotions in reaction to what I have read, Do my emotions lack value? Do the emotions of billions of humans lack value? Which emotions, and why? Which humans, and why? Why not?

Why do you seem to be dismissive of the entire history of cultures and languages? I don't understand, why is the value judgment so important to you?

I found so much value in ancient religious texts today (Sunday morning) that I blessed everyone on the Book of Faces for at least 4 hours.

Thanks to Bible Gateway dot com's amazing translation tools, I learned that an older version of Psalms 1, called Tehillim 1, from the Orthodox Jewish Bible, states:

Blessed is the ISH.
Screenshot of Psalms 1 OJB - Blessed is the ish that walketh not in - Bible Gateway.jpg

Blessed is the ISH.
 
This seems to be demonstrably false based merely on the sheer numbers of humans who did and do find value in these texts
People did and still do find "value" in flat earth and adrenochrome conspiracy videos on YouTube.

I don't think that humans "finding value" in something is actually a good measure of what HAS some "true" value... Unless you mean "value as an explicit example of unhinged and otherwise valueless thought".

Huge numbers of humans find value in sites telling them to drink raw milk and bleach.

I'm not sure that the valuation humans assign to information is necessarily a good basis.
 
Hi @Jarhyn - agreed. Valuation is indeed in the eye of the beholder.
 
I think that "being a moral person" CAN be defined objectively. A person is moral if they are compassionate, empathetic, even altruistic. A person is moral if they avoid (non-victimless) crime, bullying, and harmful lies.

Yes, those who identify as atheists are probably more moral, on average, than those who identify as Christian, but there are biases built in:
* Evil people are likely to identify as Christians whether they adhere to any Christianity or not.
* Many criminals attempt to reform, often unsuccessfully, by adopting Christianity.
* Those willing to identify as atheists are usually intellectuals. Some intellectuals are immoral, but they wouldn't want to draw attention to their (arguably immoral) atheism.
 
We sure know how to derail threads, don't we.

I know that not all atheists embrace humanist values, but since I started this thread about some claims made about the morality of atheists, I'll add the 10 commitments of humanism, just for fun.

The Ten Commitments


Critical Thinking

As we are each bombarded with a constant stream of information, it can become challenging to decide what is accurate and true. Thinking critically allows us to make sense of all this information and reason our way to good judgments and effective solutions to the problems we face while rigorously avoiding pitfalls like rationalization, conformity, and stereotyping. This process forms the basis of the scientific method, which opens the door for new discoveries through hypothesizing and experimenting. Critical thinking is a skill that requires continued attention, practice, and reflection. Exercising our minds to build these skills enables us to challenge biases in ourselves and in others, paving the way for a fair, open-minded, and autonomous perspective that fosters a multicultural worldview.


hical Development

The key to understanding ethical development is acknowledging that nobody is perfect or has all the answers. Ethical development is a never-ending process that requires constant reflection and evaluation of our personal choices and the consequences they have on others. Fairness, cooperation, and sharing are among the first moral issues we encounter in our ethical development as human beings and are often embraced intuitively, but each new day carries with it new challenges and new moral dilemmas. We should continually adapt and rebuild our moral frameworks with the goal of becoming ever better human beings.


eace and Social Justice

True peace involves an intense commitment to social justice and affirms the human rights and personal autonomy of all people. Any level of injustice against groups or individuals signifies existing conflict, even if the conflict isn’t immediate or obvious. We attain peace only by consistently responding to injustice through thoughtful conflict resolution that aims to repair harms and ensure a fair and equitable society moving forward. This kind of conflict resolution is known as restorative justice. In order to achieve a just, peaceful society, we all must take claims of injustice seriously and ensure that those who are impacted most by rights-violations determine the best course forward.


Service and Participation

Service and participation means putting values into action in ways that positively impact our communities and society as a whole. It fosters helping others, increasing social awareness, enhancing accountability, and many attributes of the other nine commitments. Engaging in service doesn’t just make the recipients better off, but those who serve can develop new skills, experiences, and personal satisfaction that all promote personal growth. We must all recognize that we are members of a group, and engaging in service to benefit the group and the other individuals in it makes us all better off.


Empathy

Empathy means entering imaginatively into another’s situation in an attempt to understand their experience as though we are experiencing it ourselves. Empathy requires a person to step outside of their own perspective to consider someone else’s thoughts, feelings, or circumstance from that person’s point of view. In many ways, empathy is the first step to ethical behavior as it allows us to respond compassionately to the suffering of others and exercise good judgement when our actions may affect someone else. Understanding another’s perspective is not only critical to building better relationships, but also makes us better citizens in our local and global communities. Empathy promotes tolerance, consideration, and compassion amongst us all.


Humility

Humility means displaying modesty about accomplishments, talents, gifts, or importance of self. It acknowledges we humans are fallible and have limitations in what we know and can do. Being humble isn’t about having low self-esteem or denigrating oneself. Humility at its core is robust self-awareness—awareness of our strengths and weaknesses, our faults and our merits. Humility involves setting aside personal pride and overcoming our egos to embrace gratitude for what you have and appreciate others for who they are. In being humble, one recognizes their own value in relation to others; inherently, you are neither better nor worse than anyone else.


Environmentalism

Regardless of our individual identities, we all share the same home: planet Earth. Just as we depend on the planet to sustain us with its precious resources, this planet’s ecosystems depend on us to be good stewards and take responsibility for the impact human activity has on our shared planet. Disregard for the large-scale impacts humans have on our environment has caused extensive harm to earth’s ecosystems. Despite this, humanity is also capable of positive environmental change that values the interdependence of all life on this planet. Each of us must acknowledge our collective and individual mistakes, repair past damages, and purposefully work toward cultivating rich, diverse, and resilient ecosystems.


Global Awareness

We live in a world that is rich in cultural, social, and individual diversity—a world with rapidly increasing interdependence. As a result, events anywhere are more likely to have consequences everywhere. Global awareness broadens our knowledge of cultures and perspectives that are outside of our own experience. A true global awareness includes attention to both current and historical events, and acknowledges how we affect—and how we are affected by—the interconnected social, political, and economic systems in which we reside. The end-goal of global awareness is global citizenship, which recognizes our personal responsibility to foster a healthy and dignified life for everyone in our global community.


Responsibility

Every day, each of us makes choices. These choices, large and small, all have consequences—for ourselves and for the world around us. Moral responsibility involves taking conscious ownership of one’s intentions and actions, and being accountable for the resulting consequences. Although we all live in a society with various cultural values, expectations, codes of conduct, and social mores, ultimately we all decide for ourselves what is right and wrong. Being a responsible person involves steadfast attention to what is right and willfully bearing the blame or praise for our own actions.


10Cmtmts_6-150x150.png
Altruism

Altruism is the selfless concern for the welfare of other living beings without expectation of reward, recognition, or return. The collective welfare of our communities and society depends on the welfare of each individual person. We should always seek to alleviate the suffering and hardships of others with compassionate action. By caring for others around us and lifting each other up, we reinforce healthy connections and contribute to the betterment of our community, society, and the world.

Of course, it's never easy to practice all of one's moral values, but I think the Humanist commitments are far better ideals to strive for, compared to anything in the Bible.

I'm glad I'm not familiar with the other bullshit that some of you have mentioned about "internet atheists".

And, atheism is still very scary to a large sector of Americans, especially those who live in the Bible Belt, as well as many other states that are have a large percentage of conservative Christians residing in them.
 
I take the view that the morally correct thing to do is the one which maximally benefits everyone, or leads to the maximal benefit for all.
So, there's no need for any gods or holy texts in your morality?

That's good to hear.
Hey, @bilby , why do you say this? What's wrong with deriving morality from a text published by a 501(c)(3) church or organization?

Forgiveness is morally ethical to me, and, forgiveness is a topic mentioned in a "holy" text. Do you oppose forgiveness?

When does your good hearing make you wonder what you really heard? I'm being facetious, of course. I'm HOH.

bilby misses the point that whilst you don't need God to act morally, you DO need something superior to God if you want to to challenge His moral law - replacing it with your own.
It can't be that hard. Anything is greater than nothing. Besides, philosophy and what not was a thing and thankfully we have things like Buddhism and Taoism and the like to provide moral guidance... a lot more than the morally lacking Bible.

I mean the whole idea that the Bible is worth it's weight in tin foil regarding moral guidance is quite laughable.
 
Religion.
You're pretending the mere label "religion" wipes out the differences between religions. It's like dismissing the comparison of movies by saying "movies" -- ignoring the extreme difference between (for example) The Godfather and Manos, the Hands of Fate. Or like pretending all foods are the same cuz it's all "food".

Buddhism and Daoism beat Christianity for wisdom because the philosophy underlying them is 100% separable from the mythology that accrued to them. You can easily find a bulleted list of the beliefs, read the ideas behind those beliefs, and (extremely importantly) think about those ideas.

Where in Christianity you're expected to just take on board utterly bizarre beliefs -- like a blood sacrifice will magically "cleanse" a person of "sins", and other strictly mythological flapdoodle that can't withstand a critical examination (which is why creationists must deny reality to prevent it causing doubt of their faith in sillyass myths).

Some people call them philosophy instead of religion because they're not reliant on revelations from an absent, un-evidenced deity. One can read the foundational texts of Buddhism and Taoism and find advice that can be thought about in a rational way and tested without having to "believe in" them first; instead of alleged "revelations" that a person can only believe by badly wanting to believe.
 
Laws have moral implications. They express the values of the law maker. If the law maker says 'thou shalt not kill,' does that not, in this instance, express the moral values of God? Yet we have the same God drowning the whole world, killing the first born of Egypt, ordering genocide....
 
Religion.
You're pretending the mere label "religion" wipes out the differences between religions. It's like dismissing the comparison of movies by saying "movies" -- ignoring the extreme difference between (for example) The Godfather and Manos, the Hands of Fate. Or like pretending all foods are the same cuz it's all "food".
Solid reference. Pacino WISHES he had been cast in Manos.

The plot of Manos could fit seamlessly into the christian bible and Torgo would be considered a disciple.
 
Lion, what you seem to miss here is that religion IS often right, but because it doesn't show or prove it's work out, that it's not really useful in discerning truth.

Instead, the exercise is generally left to the reader, and very few readers are up to the task.

When a reader DOES prove up to the task, the unfortunate result is that they generally also don't show their work, or sometimes even if they do, some sycophants end up worshipping them and building up a religion and praising all the things they too failed to show their work about, resulting in yet another cycle of folks believing something to be absolute truth for bad reasons.

In reality, as @abaddon points out here, you have to think about those ideas and separate the philosophically grounded parts from the mythology.

And I will say, MST3k definitely improved Manos by a fair margin, making the movie at least "watchable".
 
Religion.
You're pretending the mere label "religion" wipes out the differences between religions.

I'm not pretending anything.

Taoism and Buddhism are religions.
And Jimmy said they (both) provide "moral guidance". They have that in common.

If you wanna throw in a few other religions we can take a look at what moral guidance they offer as well.

Bring it.

It's like dismissing the comparison of movies by saying "movies" -- ignoring the extreme difference between (for example) The Godfather and Manos, the Hands of Fate. Or like pretending all foods are the same cuz it's all "food".

I'm happy to talk about food if you'd rather. Foods have something in common - calories.

Now that you mention it, that would make a good analogy with religion. Is there a religion/food which offers no calories - no moral guidance?

Hmmm. Let me think.
What religion lacks any beliefs/calories.
Atheism?

Buddhism and Daoism beat Christianity for wisdom because the philosophy underlying them is 100% separable from the mythology that accrued to them.

Opinion noted. 👍
 
Lion, what you seem to miss here is that religion IS often right...

I didnt miss that point.
i agree with it.

, but because it doesn't show or prove it's work out, that it's not really useful in discerning truth.

Disagree.

...I'm just letting you know I disagree so that you wont mistakenly think I'm missing your point, or ignoring the point you're trying to make, or pretending something something blah blah blah
 
What religion lacks any beliefs/calories.
Atheism?


Atheism is not a religion.

Non-religious ethical codes offer even more moral guidance, generally speaking, than religions, such as the bible, for example, which encourages slaves to “obey their earthly masters.”

If you personally, given your behavior on this forum, are an example of the “beliefs/calories” of religious guidance, your religion has zero to offer.
 
Taoism and Buddhism are religions.
And Jimmy said they (both) provide "moral guidance". They have that in common.
Ok. So? :shrug:

Hm, but maybe I can answer that question myself...

I've remembered a thread about using the "tu toque" fallacy for a debating strategy:


You joined in, enthusiastic about the idea. As I remember, in that thread you explained to everyone that atheists are religious believers for saying "god" a lot, and so they're hypocrites to criticize religion. So you imagined that throwing "you too!" arguments at atheists would force them to admit their hypocrisy.

You seem to think at the level of simple contradictions ("Them: Religion is bad. Me: Atheism is a religion"). And labels too, your brain seems to zero in on labels and skips the ideas behind them. So if an atheist says "god", Lion IRC responds "You said God!" An atheist says "creation", Lion IRC responds "you said creation!"

And now it's "religion". An atheist, a person whose 'religion' holds that all religion is bad, has said something positive about a religion! Hypocrite, right??

Any atheist you've ever seen saying "that's religious!" as a criticism was being stupid themselves. Arguments by label are asinine. In your case, you replaced "religions" with "religion", so if an atheist says something positive about a non-Christian religion then it must apply to Christianity too cuz it's all "religion".

Aside from the sameness of them all being labelled "religion", there's a shitload of extremely significant differences. But maybe you need simple categories so that the complexities of thinking are gone?


ETA: Oh yeah, and Christianity offers moral guidance. Again, so what? This is the problem of thinking in overly broad categories again. Maybe it has moral guidance, like all religions do, but what matters are the complexities, the "nuance": What is the reasonableness and effectiveness of its guidance?
 
Taoism and Buddhism are religions
More, they are philosophical discussions had in a particular format which you think is religious, but for both the two of Tao and Buddhism, they don't actually disinvite criticism, and do encourage the application of logical form... Though they tend to assert discussions in a way that did lead to religions accreting inappropriately.
I didnt miss that point.
i agree with it.
Disagree.
Clearly you missed the point, then. "Mostly" leaves the fact that the whole is unreliable, and must be reinforced with sterner stuff where it may and jettisoned when junky bits fall through.
 
I saw "10 commitments of humanism, just for fun." I agree 100%, they exist for fun alone. Moral posturing is not morality. No tangible actions result, The website certainly isn't dogma, nor dictate. It's a pretty web page. One more set of talking points with the value of the three Manifestos.

I've known hundreds of Humanists; was a volunteer for years; hosted the AHA Prez, hosted and ran an alleged chapter of my state's Humanist group, I was on the BoD. I went above and beyond. But guess I failed NJHN so miserably that they removed any mention of me and of their chapter's work in Gloucester County NJ. Maybe I was too poor to be remembered as more than a faceless queer slave.

Humanists won't help me. There is not ONE commitment to me. No commitments to human people in crisis. The AHA website is a slap in my face. I'm in crisis, I'm floundering. What's a Humanist going to do to or for me, link me to another page of pretty posturing? How is it moral to be wrong? Humanist groups do photo ops and tax deductions. I know Humanist values: Donate to a nonprofit that already does what they do ,publish more pablum.

I imagine my reaction to seeing the Humanist 10Cs is the same as sohy's reaction to seeing the Biblical 10Cs. "Wow, unhelpful nonsense." Yeah. :( I agree that this is an example of atheist morality (it is self-serving - tax credits mean more than humans).
 
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