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The myth of the non profit hospital

It works well. It looks like any other insurance. One benefit is if you have trouble with it you can call Medicare and they will ensure you get benefits owed. The basic Medicare benefits are clearly defined along with max out of pocket expenses.

Works well at keeping the bills down. Doesn't work so well at getting care without excessive waits. I do not consider waiting three months for the first available appointment to be working properly. My wife recently got offered a first-available for a specialist 6 months out.

While I'm not of Medicare age yet the insurance off the exchange has pretty much the same provider network--and I've been given a priority referral that then got downgraded to routine. They rescheduled the appointment--still for the same day, roughly two months out. In other words, if an issue is actually urgent it means nothing in their system.
 
Over a 5 year period I had one minor issue with United. I called Medicare, they called United, and the next day it was resolved.

There are a number of companies getting into te market and ther are problems I have heard about with them. No different than my expeince with private insurance.

Dealing with private HMOs cam be like pulling teeth. There are private companies who are known to intentional deny covered treatments making people jump trough hoops hoping they give up.

You realize MA plans are HMOs? Around here the main players are Humana and United. Humana is generally rated not quite as bad.

We've had multiple cases of multi-month waits and one bogus denial it took 6 months to get somebody with some sense to look at and fix. (The idiots authorized a STAT referral starting tomorrow--then denied the claim when the procedure was done a few minutes later because it was outside the authorization dates. The system was set up so we had no way of communicating with the people responsible for that stupidity and ended up having to go over their heads.)

You get the low copays, you get things like Silver Sneakers--but you get delayed care.

Around here I think it was United that got hit with a big lawsuit because they paid attention to price and let a doctor back into their network that they had kicked out for quality reasons. Last I knew 7 deaths had been directly attributed to his unsanitary cost-cutting, lots of other Hepatitis C infections and who knows how many missed cancers.
 
That is what for profit does.

The flip side is lack of attention to costs leading to failures.

The veterans I know are very happy with the Seattle VA hospital I don't use it because I don't need it.

I used it one in the 70s. I was broke and I needed a phsyical exam for college. Walked in with my DD214 and got an appointment.


Complexiomes into play. A big hospital like the UW which is huge and distributed around the region is difficult to manage and control.

As size and compexity grows so does overhead. You pay $2 for an aspirin and woder why. A purchsing dpartment has to order it. A management system has to track all the meds. ple have to recieve and stock it. People have pick meds for patients and bag or packge it. Floor space cost money for stock rooms.

It al has to be paid for.

When I worjkd for a large company there would be a cost thafor parts that is used to calulate product cost. A part that cost a dollar from a distrinutor might be costed at $2 in production. Same issues as above.

And for a hospital there is little in the way of economies of scale.

The UW main mdcal cnter is huge. Many specialized groups with specialized equipment. All in a hierarchical management structure. Very difficult to manage costs and overhead.

Things runnng as smoothy as I tsaw if the person at the top makes a million dollars he or she is probably worth it.
 
I intentionally did not give the insurance company an email address. I do get voice mails. They kept trying to get me to use their home visit doctor service. I called them and asked to stop the calls and they did.

I get paper mail prooting their mail pharmacy. After all, it is for profit.

Yea the drug program is important. All my meds are tier 1, so I have no co-pays.

As I understand it if you have the Kaiser plan you can only go to Kaiser.
Yeah, they figure one fill every three months is cheaper than once a month from the local pharmacy.

We got IIRC 8 communications from them when her doc sent a maintenance med prescription to the local pharmacy--because it's one that has to be dialed in. Even after it was dialed in and the script sent to the mail order pharmacy they still tried a couple of times to get us to switch it and the last time I logged into the pharmacy website it was still suggesting how easy it would be to switch it. Hey, you idiots, your system should know what's going on and not go bugging patients while the dose is being dialed in!
 
I refer having a person to alk to at the pharmacy.

I have not had any real problems with Walgreens. On my yearly checkups my three doctors email the refills. If there is an issue I get a text from Walgreens. I go online at the UW and check if my refill authorization are up to date and just click on refill if I have to.

I get a text from Walgreens when a pickup is ready. All very smooth with very few wrinkles.

My meds are common tier 1 so I have had no problems with United insurance.

I haven't carried a paper med script since I don't know when.

Try Walgreens home delivery.
 
Over a 5 year period I had one minor issue with United. I called Medicare, they called United, and the next day it was resolved.

There are a number of companies getting into te market and ther are problems I have heard about with them. No different than my expeince with private insurance.

Dealing with private HMOs cam be like pulling teeth. There are private companies who are known to intentional deny covered treatments making people jump trough hoops hoping they give up.

You realize MA plans are HMOs? Around here the main players are Humana and United. Humana is generally rated not quite as bad.

We've had multiple cases of multi-month waits and one bogus denial it took 6 months to get somebody with some sense to look at and fix. (The idiots authorized a STAT referral starting tomorrow--then denied the claim when the procedure was done a few minutes later because it was outside the authorization dates. The system was set up so we had no way of communicating with the people responsible for that stupidity and ended up having to go over their heads.)

You get the low copays, you get things like Silver Sneakers--but you get delayed care.

Around here I think it was United that got hit with a big lawsuit because they paid attention to price and let a doctor back into their network that they had kicked out for quality reasons. Last I knew 7 deaths had been directly attributed to his unsanitary cost-cutting, lots of other Hepatitis C infections and who knows how many missed cancers.
My plan is a PPO. I would never have considered an Advantage Plan if I had to take an HMO, as HMOs only allow you to use doctors that are in network. I can use any doctor who takes M/care for a slightly higher copay. I guess I'm lucky to live in an area where I've never had to wait more than a week or two to get an appointment with a provider of my choice. Just about every doctor in my area takes Medicare, but we do have a lot of older adults here and that may be the only way they can get enough patients. I know there are some doctors in Atlanta who don't take M'care because my former employer was bitching about that. She was on Medicare herself.

It's true that APs deny services more often than other insurance plans, but most of the time, the patient wins if they appeal the denial. Most people probably don't realize that. Again, it's all about greed.

I have began to wonder if my own doctor is trying to upcode me. She is always, imo, over reacting to slightly abnormal lab tests. For example, my liver enzymes have been mildly elevated for about 20 years. My former doctor, now retired, told me that they would have to be about 4 times higher before it would be of concern. Both of them checked me for Hep C, since that is the only known disease that can cause mildly elevated liver enzymes. Maybe she's just being overly cautious, but she ordered a liver ultrasound last year, which of course was normal. I like her but I do find this very annoying and I hate unnecessary tests being ordered, as they increase the burden on M'care. That is a huge problem when it comes to M'care, especially if the provider has the equipment to do the procedures in their own practice.

I would have to be close to death before I agreed to be hospitalized, and reading about these so called non profit hospitals has just made my hatred of hospital worse. I'm having knee surgery next month, and my surprisingly kind, reasonable surgeon agreed to do it out patient. That helped me make the decision to have it done, after putting it off for years. The hospital he uses has a lot of bad ratings, so I'm hoping all goes well and I'll be in and out on the same day. Stay out of the hospital if at all possible. There are even some experiments with at home hospitalization. They use monitors and something like zoom to keep in touch with the patient, but at least the patient isn't exposed to all the nasty germs in hospitals. I've sen so many doctors who had poor infection control techniques, including not washing their hands prior to changing a dressing or examining a patient. But, I digress.

And, yes to Steve's comment about Kaiser. If you're on their AP, you have to use their services unless they don't have a specialist available that you need. My former patient lived about 30 miles from the only Kaiser center in our area. While Kaiser often provides decent care, I like my providers to be very close to where I live, and I like to have choices. All of the doctors I've used in the last few years have been within a 10 minute drive from my home.

It's greed and profit that are a huge problem for America's healthcare system. It wasn't that way when I entered the nursing profession in the mid 70s, but it's changed drastically since those days.
 
All those invitations to take tests or have visits at home are clearly in place to make money. I've always known that because it only makes sense and is why I've never accepted any of the invitations. It seems to me these insurers could also save a ton of money by eliminating all the junk mail and junk emails, but I suppose that's their way of advertising.

Besides eye and dental my plan allows us to be reimbursed to a certain amount for medical expenses. It's at lease several hundred dollars a year which can be applied to anything, even copays, so long as it's medically related. We also get that $60.00 per quarter allotment to order OTC meds and supplies so I order vitamins, band-aids, etc., anything I might need.

Lately the offer has been to use their prepaid card to cover medical costs out of pocket. I think they will deduct a hundred dollars monthly from your SS and all you do is use the card like a debit card. But I don't need that hassle, plus anything unspent at the end of the year is lost. Maybe it's convenient for some people but not for us. Funny thing is whenever I call with a question they always remind me to activate my card. They must make even more money off these things or they wouldn't be pushing them.
 
Part of it is the requiremnt to treat all comers regadless of ability to pay.
...
The free market system has created a disorganized mess in medical care.
:consternation2:
How on earth do you manage the mental gyrations it takes to persuade yourself that a system required to treat all comers regardless of ability to pay is the free market system?!? What we have in the U.S. is socialized medicine, same as everywhere else, only designed more stupidly.
 
Part of it is the requiremnt to treat all comers regadless of ability to pay.
...
The free market system has created a disorganized mess in medical care.
:consternation2:
How on earth do you manage the mental gyrations it takes to persuade yourself that a system required to treat all comers regardless of ability to pay is the free market system?!? What we have in the U.S. is socialized medicine, same as everywhere else, only designed more stupidly.
You are not even close.

In countries with socialized medicine health care for all is funded nationally.

The problem fr hospitals in part is being required to provide treatment without being paid for the costs, or not being adequately funded.

'socialized medicine' is a loaded propaganda pejorative used by conservatives. It infers a nightmarish heath care system. and often have cited Canada. I listed to an interview with a conservative who actually helped create the bogus view of the Canadian system and came to regret it.

One of the negative claims made of the Canadian system was that people had to wait for care. Over here even with good private health insurance you get in a que for procedures. Depending on where ypu live it may take months to get cataract surgery. Even here in Seattle.

You have to get in line for knee and hip replacement.

One of those Christian conservative moral ambiguities. All ife is sacred and abortion is murder, but when you pop out you are on your own.

For those that can afford it there is coicerge medicine. Doctors who have a limited number of high paying clients on a retainer butguarenteeing fast personal service.

Don't see how conservatives can oppose abortion and not support heath care for all.


Look at all the money spent on political campaigns. Sports stadiums. Pet care.

We express morality in how we spend money.
 
All those invitations to take tests or have visits at home are clearly in place to make money. I've always known that because it only makes sense and is why I've never accepted any of the invitations. It seems to me these insurers could also save a ton of money by eliminating all the junk mail and junk emails, but I suppose that's their way of advertising.

Besides eye and dental my plan allows us to be reimbursed to a certain amount for medical expenses. It's at lease several hundred dollars a year which can be applied to anything, even copays, so long as it's medically related. We also get that $60.00 per quarter allotment to order OTC meds and supplies so I order vitamins, band-aids, etc., anything I might need.

Lately the offer has been to use their prepaid card to cover medical costs out of pocket. I think they will deduct a hundred dollars monthly from your SS and all you do is use the card like a debit card. But I don't need that hassle, plus anything unspent at the end of the year is lost. Maybe it's convenient for some people but not for us. Funny thing is whenever I call with a question they always remind me to activate my card. They must make even more money off these things or they wouldn't be pushing them.
I am 71 and more than able to manage my health care. A lot of older people have trouble. I see it in my building. They can't navigate the health care and social service systems.

We have a contract social worker and a nurse who come in once a week to help those kinds of people.

There is profit involved, but they are also reaching out to find people who need the service.

United makes a profit and that in turn means they can provide zero premium Advantage plans with additional beifits and provide all the support neccesary.

That's why I think the way the Medicare Advance model works is a good compromise.
 
It's true that APs deny services more often than other insurance plans, but most of the time, the patient wins if they appeal the denial. Most people probably don't realize that. Again, it's all about greed.

Denials usually mean delayed care.

I have began to wonder if my own doctor is trying to upcode me. She is always, imo, over reacting to slightly abnormal lab tests. For example, my liver enzymes have been mildly elevated for about 20 years. My former doctor, now retired, told me that they would have to be about 4 times higher before it would be of concern. Both of them checked me for Hep C, since that is the only known disease that can cause mildly elevated liver enzymes. Maybe she's just being overly cautious, but she ordered a liver ultrasound last year, which of course was normal. I like her but I do find this very annoying and I hate unnecessary tests being ordered, as they increase the burden on M'care. That is a huge problem when it comes to M'care, especially if the provider has the equipment to do the procedures in their own practice.

I'm sure there's plenty of upcoding in the MA plans. I don't see that it particularly harms the patient, though.
 
Part of it is the requiremnt to treat all comers regadless of ability to pay.
...
The free market system has created a disorganized mess in medical care.
:consternation2:
How on earth do you manage the mental gyrations it takes to persuade yourself that a system required to treat all comers regardless of ability to pay is the free market system?!? What we have in the U.S. is socialized medicine, same as everywhere else, only designed more stupidly.
You are not even close.

In countries with socialized medicine health care for all is funded nationally.
Yes, and that's what we have in the U.S. That's what "the requirement to treat all comers regardless of ability to pay" means. "Funded nationally" means if you can't afford to be treated then the nation will designate some other people in the nation to pay the costs of treating you.

In a well-designed socialized medicine system, "some other people" are the taxpayers. In our stupidly-designed socialized medicine system, "some other people" are the rest of the sick people, who are charged ridiculously inflated prices for services that don't cost much to deliver so there will be windfall profit available with which to subsidize the treatment you can't afford, and the nation coerces the other sick people to pay those inflated prices by the expedient of the nation prohibiting them from buying the medicines they need from cheap Canadian pharmacies and prohibiting them from getting prescriptions for those medicines at a reasonable price from their Uber driver, whose medical degree from the University of Karachi isn't enough to get the government here to issue him a license to practice his true profession, so he has to drive for Uber to makes ends meet, because if they allowed doctors to compete the excess profit that pays for your expensive surgery would go bye-bye. Socialized medicine of the stupid kind.
 
It's true that APs deny services more often than other insurance plans, but most of the time, the patient wins if they appeal the denial. Most people probably don't realize that. Again, it's all about greed.

Denials usually mean delayed care.

I have began to wonder if my own doctor is trying to upcode me. She is always, imo, over reacting to slightly abnormal lab tests. For example, my liver enzymes have been mildly elevated for about 20 years. My former doctor, now retired, told me that they would have to be about 4 times higher before it would be of concern. Both of them checked me for Hep C, since that is the only known disease that can cause mildly elevated liver enzymes. Maybe she's just being overly cautious, but she ordered a liver ultrasound last year, which of course was normal. I like her but I do find this very annoying and I hate unnecessary tests being ordered, as they increase the burden on M'care. That is a huge problem when it comes to M'care, especially if the provider has the equipment to do the procedures in their own practice.

I'm sure there's plenty of upcoding in the MA plans. I don't see that it particularly harms the patient, though.
Upcoding doesn't harm the patient, but it does take more money from the government. I may be a rare person who tries really hard not to over use my Medicare benefit. I've seen so many unnecessary tests and procedures and so many M/care recipients who run to a doctor for very minor symptoms, that it's made me very aware of how much abuse there is in the system. If one really needs the care, that's one thing, but that's not always the case when it comes to Medicare.

I also saw so much abuse when I worked as a home health Quality Assurance nurse for several years. It was all about making a profit. Nurses were encouraged to see patients more than necessary when Medicare paid per visit. Then Medicare totally changed the way it reimbursed home health. It was based on a long assessment done by the nurse who did the admission visit. After that, agencies saw patients a lot less often, sometimes less often than the patients needed. Before I retired, quite a few of my patients in the facility where I worked received home health. I discovered that the agencies were using LPNs instead of RNs to make most of the visits, other then the few that required an RN by Medicare. This was another way to cut costs and increase profits. When I started working in Home Healthy, we only had RNs doing the visits. We cared about following Medicare guidelines, but the first job I had was in a public health department, so profit wasn't an issue. Things changed in the mid 80s and got worse from there.
 
Upcoding doesn't harm the patient, but it does take more money from the government. I may be a rare person who tries really hard not to over use my Medicare benefit. I've seen so many unnecessary tests and procedures and so many M/care recipients who run to a doctor for very minor symptoms, that it's made me very aware of how much abuse there is in the system. If one really needs the care, that's one thing, but that's not always the case when it comes to Medicare.

I think DoD Tricare for retirees probably helps remediate the overuse issue by basically flipping the cost of copays and monthly premiums. $15 monthly premium. $150 copay for a visit. They've stuck with this model for as long as I've been in it, that's at least the last fourteen years.

The overuse issue may subside some as those who are unfamiliar with the internet die off. Being 59, ailments are starting to creep in, I always go to the Mayo Clinic website or the like first to see if it's something I should make an appointment for or just hold off until my next checkup and make mention of it then.
 
I think DoD Tricare for retirees probably helps remediate the overuse issue by basically flipping the cost of copays and monthly premiums. $15 monthly premium. $150 copay for a visit. They've stuck with this model for as long as I've been in it, that's at least the last fourteen years.

The overuse issue may subside some as those who are unfamiliar with the internet die off. Being 59, ailments are starting to creep in, I always go to the Mayo Clinic website or the like first to see if it's something I should make an appointment for or just hold off until my next checkup and make mention of it then.
Are you saying it's $150.00 copay for any visits? That seems like a lot but it would persuade a reasonable person to not run to a doctor needlessly.
 
I think DoD Tricare for retirees probably helps remediate the overuse issue by basically flipping the cost of copays and monthly premiums. $15 monthly premium. $150 copay for a visit. They've stuck with this model for as long as I've been in it, that's at least the last fourteen years.

The overuse issue may subside some as those who are unfamiliar with the internet die off. Being 59, ailments are starting to creep in, I always go to the Mayo Clinic website or the like first to see if it's something I should make an appointment for or just hold off until my next checkup and make mention of it then.
Are you saying it's $150.00 copay for any visits? That seems like a lot but it would persuade a reasonable person to not run to a doctor needlessly.
I"m hoping that was a typing error and he meant 15 dollar copay. I can't imagine a copay of 150 for a doctor's visit. Medicare rarely pays that much for the entire visit unless it's a complicated or extended visit.

My late father received a lot of his care from the VA, despite having Medicare and a Medigap supplement. I missed the chance to get a supplement since I didn't realize that unless you live in one of 4 states, you can be denied a supplement unless you ask for one during the first 6 months you are eligible for Medicare.

The problem with the supplements is that they can start out being very reasonable, but the older you get, the higher the premiums usually are. I worked with a woman in her mid 80s who was only working so she could afford her supplement. It was 350 per month when I worked with her. If she is still alive, she'd be about 93. I wonder how much her supplement would be at 93. Sadly, the woman didn't know that she should have a Part D drug plan. Luckily, she took no drugs, until she was diagnosed with hypertension when in her mid 80s and that drug was cheap.

If you don't sign up for Part D when you are 65, you will have to pay a higher premium if you choose a Part D plan years later. Most Advantage Plans have the drug plans as part of the plan. The first few years I was on Medicare, I took the traditional Medicare with a Part D drug plan. Since I've always been healthy and will likely refuse aggressive care when I start to deteriorate, I thought that would meet my needs. However, traditional Medicare has no limit as to what you might have to pay out of pocket in any given year, while Advantage Plans do have a limit. My current AP has an out of pocket limit of about 6500 per year. A lot of people don't even have that much money available, so unless they are poor enough to have M'caid as their supplement, they are screwed.

At least half of my previous patients in the long term care facility did have M'care and M'caid as their supplement. They usually were able to receive good care as most doctors in the area took patients with that combination. M'caid pays less than M'care. If M'caid is all you have, it's a lot harder to always find a doctor who takes M'caid. Most of you probably know that you have to pay into M'care through your work for at least 10 years to qualify. Those I knew who were only on M'caid, had cognitive disabilities that made it hard for them to work.

I know we've gone away from the topic I started in the OP, but it's all related to how profit has influenced our healthcare. Plus, Medicare is complicated and a lot of people make the wrong choice. Let me add that I knew a couple about 10 years ago, who gave up their Medigap and took an Advantage Plan because they could no longer afford the supplement. It becomes too expensive as they aged. Most of my older friends are on Advantage Plans. They either can't afford or didn't want to pay the high cost of having a supplement, aka Medi-gap.

A lot of people don't realize that other than a few weeks of rehab, Medicare doesn't pay for nursing home care.
 
I think DoD Tricare for retirees probably helps remediate the overuse issue by basically flipping the cost of copays and monthly premiums. $15 monthly premium. $150 copay for a visit. They've stuck with this model for as long as I've been in it, that's at least the last fourteen years.

The overuse issue may subside some as those who are unfamiliar with the internet die off. Being 59, ailments are starting to creep in, I always go to the Mayo Clinic website or the like first to see if it's something I should make an appointment for or just hold off until my next checkup and make mention of it then.
Are you saying it's $150.00 copay for any visits? That seems like a lot but it would persuade a reasonable person to not run to a doctor needlessly.
Yes, as far as I've experienced. If a PCM referred me to a specialist would I pay the copay twice? I don't know. But the PCM visit for sure. I rarely used Tricare, opting for the VA as much as possible.
 
Here's the list. The couple times I used it, my out of pocket was just under $150. I know I selected a physician from Humana's list. What constitutes an "outpatient visit" I do not know.
Screen Shot 2022-12-19 at 2.50.26 PM.png
 
Upcoding doesn't harm the patient, but it does take more money from the government. I may be a rare person who tries really hard not to over use my Medicare benefit. I've seen so many unnecessary tests and procedures and so many M/care recipients who run to a doctor for very minor symptoms, that it's made me very aware of how much abuse there is in the system. If one really needs the care, that's one thing, but that's not always the case when it comes to Medicare.

I agree that it harms the taxpayer--but I'm saying it's a fight between the companies and the government, not a quality of care issue.

I also saw so much abuse when I worked as a home health Quality Assurance nurse for several years. It was all about making a profit. Nurses were encouraged to see patients more than necessary when Medicare paid per visit. Then Medicare totally changed the way it reimbursed home health. It was based on a long assessment done by the nurse who did the admission visit. After that, agencies saw patients a lot less often, sometimes less often than the patients needed. Before I retired, quite a few of my patients in the facility where I worked received home health. I discovered that the agencies were using LPNs instead of RNs to make most of the visits, other then the few that required an RN by Medicare. This was another way to cut costs and increase profits. When I started working in Home Healthy, we only had RNs doing the visits. We cared about following Medicare guidelines, but the first job I had was in a public health department, so profit wasn't an issue. Things changed in the mid 80s and got worse from there.
I am not surprised in the least. Although public health doesn't automatically mean it's done right, it just means different incentives to doing things wrong.
 
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