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The Problem We All Live With (The Other Story of Michael Brown)

It's been a while since I took a look at this issue, but what I recall is that black students in integrated schools do only slightly better than black students in segregated schools.

However, far fewer students drop out and many more go on to college.

I think many white people are more invested in holding on to their conception of blacks as inferior and dangerous than doing something to alleviate the problem.
 
Actually it doesn't. Unless you think that all black students are disruptive and in a secret cabal dedicated to not learning and seeing to it no other kids learn either. Is that what you think?
Poor schools normally get the same resources. It's just they spend more on security and the like.
Then they are getting the same resources now are they? they are getting money. Not the same thing. And not always the same money. Most public school funding in the US comes from property taxes.

But at the state level. They're getting the same amount per student, it's just they are spending it differently.

How rigorous the classes are is far more a factor of the students than anything else--a teacher who teaches a rigorous class to ill-prepared students is actually doing them a disservice as they'll just be left behind.
Having actually taught school, I find that kids respond to expectation. And they are more engaged when challenged and not when bored.

You're not addressing the issue. When you're facing a bunch of 6th graders who are functioning at a 3rd grade level you're not going to accomplish anything no matter how brilliant your teaching of 6th grade material.

Schools are a reflection of the average student they get.
To some people.
That's why private schools can do so well--set a high bar for who they will admit, it's easy to turn out good results.
Turning out sociopaths is a good result?

Plenty of non-sociopaths from private schools.

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It's been a while since I took a look at this issue, but what I recall is that black students in integrated schools do only slightly better than black students in segregated schools.

However, far fewer students drop out and many more go on to college.

Yup--it's the community and their peers that counts.

I think many white people are more invested in holding on to their conception of blacks as inferior and dangerous than doing something to alleviate the problem.

I don't think they are. This isn't a racial problem, it's a cultural one.
 
Actually it doesn't. Unless you think that all black students are disruptive and in a secret cabal dedicated to not learning and seeing to it no other kids learn either. Is that what you think?Then they are getting the same resources now are they? they are getting money. Not the same thing. And not always the same money. Most public school funding in the US comes from property taxes.

But at the state level. They're getting the same amount per student, it's just they are spending it differently.
Students get nothing at the state level. Students get their education at the student level and the money spent there and on what vary widely.
How rigorous the classes are is far more a factor of the students than anything else--a teacher who teaches a rigorous class to ill-prepared students is actually doing them a disservice as they'll just be left behind.
Having actually taught school, I find that kids respond to expectation. And they are more engaged when challenged and not when bored.

You're not addressing the issue. When you're facing a bunch of 6th graders who are functioning at a 3rd grade level you're not going to accomplish anything no matter how brilliant your teaching of 6th grade material.
Functioning or reading at? And for how long? No, a lecturer who is there for a 50 minute hour will not connect to students, but a teacher who knows her students' strengths and weaknesses and has the time to teach properly will. And what makes you think that a teacher would try to teach at a sixth grade level to students she knows are at a third grade one? That has to be one of the most ridiculous things you have typed so far.
Schools are a reflection of the average student they get.
To some people.
That's why private schools can do so well--set a high bar for who they will admit, it's easy to turn out good results.
Turning out sociopaths is a good result?

Plenty of non-sociopaths from private schools.
Plenty of average and above average students in public schools. What's your point?
 
Uh hunh. That's why schools are so integrated.

Schools aren't integrated because people choose to live in neighborhoods with more people of their own race.

And yet during the 1970s into the 1980s, schools were more integrated than they are now. Did people move into integrated neighborhoods and then out again?
 
Now sitting next to white kids doesn't make you smarter, but it does put you in schools with the better teachers, greater resources, and more rigorous classes.

Why do "white schools" have more rigorous classes?

The major factor in how rigorous a class is is how willing and able the majority of students are to meet the requirements of a rigorous class.
 
Now sitting next to white kids doesn't make you smarter, but it does put you in schools with the better teachers, greater resources, and more rigorous classes.

Why do "white schools" have more rigorous classes?
Because they have books that didn't go out of print the same time people stopped buying rotary phones.

Because money that should have been spent on upgrading infrasturcture and hiring teachers went instead to paying resource officers who manacle 60 lb children.

Because cutting breakfast and lunch programs leave you with student ill prepared to learn because they can't hear over their stomachs rumbling.
The major factor in how rigorous a class is is how willing and able the majority of students are to meet the requirements of a rigorous class.

The children are willing, but the adminstration is weak.
 
Now sitting next to white kids doesn't make you smarter, but it does put you in schools with the better teachers, greater resources, and more rigorous classes.

Why do "white schools" have more rigorous classes?

The major factor in how rigorous a class is is how willing and able the majority of students are to meet the requirements of a rigorous class.
That assumes someone (or some school) wants to or is permitted to offer a rigorous class. Not always the case.
 
Why do "white schools" have more rigorous classes?

The major factor in how rigorous a class is is how willing and able the majority of students are to meet the requirements of a rigorous class.
That assumes someone (or some school) wants to or is permitted to offer a rigorous class. Not always the case.

And it also depends on what you mean by rigorous. Rigorous in a upscale suburban public school means hands on experiments in natural sciences, field trips to living history museums, music workshops where members of cities symphony orchestra visit the music room, talk to the students and do one on one coaching. Rigorous in an uptown urban school too often means hours of rote memorization, test taking tips, and reams on multiplications tables.
 
You're not addressing the issue. When you're facing a bunch of 6th graders who are functioning at a 3rd grade level you're not going to accomplish anything no matter how brilliant your teaching of 6th grade material.
Which is another reason why tutoring programs and academic intervention is crucial for struggling students.

I think many white people are more invested in holding on to their conception of blacks as inferior and dangerous than doing something to alleviate the problem.

I don't think they are. This isn't a racial problem, it's a cultural one.

You do realize that "being black" isn't a culture, right?
 
Uh hunh. That's why schools are so integrated.

Schools aren't integrated because people choose to live in neighborhoods with more people of their own race.

Actually, most people "choose" to live in neighborhoods where they can afford the rent or mortgage. People in an economic position to choose between multiple neighborhoods and choose a more expensive one purely because of its racial content are in a VERY good position economically and are not the norm.

IOW: "Upper-middle class white people choose to love in neighborhoods with more people of their own race." But they generally fail, because upper middle class black people choose to live in the same neighborhoods on the assumption that they will have better schools, better services, a lower crime rate and better security.

So the lack of integration is an economic one, not a cultural or even racial one. And the integration of schools makes social sense in helping to hammer out those economic differences and give students born into poverty a chance to eventually climb out of it.
 
That assumes someone (or some school) wants to or is permitted to offer a rigorous class. Not always the case.

And it also depends on what you mean by rigorous. Rigorous in a upscale suburban public school means hands on experiments in natural sciences, field trips to living history museums, music workshops where members of cities symphony orchestra visit the music room, talk to the students and do one on one coaching. Rigorous in an uptown urban school too often means hours of rote memorization, test taking tips, and reams on multiplications tables.

You used the word "rigorous", so which did you mean? The standard meaning of "rigorous class" is one that is very difficult and challenging to the students, requires a great deal of work and effort on their part, and where good grades require clear demonstration that the material was mastered.
Inability or refusal of students to meet these expectations, combined with their parents complaints are primary reasons why such classes are not offered more. Teachers that try to are forced to "dumb down" the class.

Yes, teachers and resources matter, but your explanation of why black kids perform better in majority white schools ignores the variable that, by definition, most greatly and objectively differs between those schools and majority black schools, namely who the majority of a students classmates are. Classroom culture matters, culture is a byproduct or people, and the people that most define a classroom are the students and their parents who far outnumber the teachers and administrators.
Perhaps the observed effects of integration are that the black kids are helped by sitting next to other students more willing and able to meet the expectations of a rigorous class, and whose parents more likely to help push those classmates to meet those expectations.
 
Schools aren't integrated because people choose to live in neighborhoods with more people of their own race.

Yes, it's unpossible to integrate at the metropolitan or regional level.

But that's ok, it's only society at stake.

Bussing kids all over town isn't a good thing for them.

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The children are willing, but the adminstration is weak.

If this were true moving students into a better school would help them. Emphasis on the if.

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Why do "white schools" have more rigorous classes?

The major factor in how rigorous a class is is how willing and able the majority of students are to meet the requirements of a rigorous class.
That assumes someone (or some school) wants to or is permitted to offer a rigorous class. Not always the case.

They're being stopped because it would be a bad thing to offer a rigorous class to students who aren't prepared for it.
 
They're being stopped because it would be a bad thing to offer a rigorous class to students who aren't prepared for it.

Once again, the evidence is against you on this case. And that even ignoring your bizzarre assumption that a school exists -- or even COULD exist -- in which none of its students are prepared for a rigorous education.
 
And it also depends on what you mean by rigorous. Rigorous in a upscale suburban public school means hands on experiments in natural sciences, field trips to living history museums, music workshops where members of cities symphony orchestra visit the music room, talk to the students and do one on one coaching. Rigorous in an uptown urban school too often means hours of rote memorization, test taking tips, and reams on multiplications tables.

You used the word "rigorous", so which did you mean? The standard meaning of "rigorous class" is one that is very difficult and challenging to the students,
another definition is

extremely thorough, exhaustive, or accurate

Semantics, the bored game the whole family can yawn through.
requires a great deal of work and effort on their part, and where good grades require clear demonstration that the material was mastered.
Inability or refusal of students to meet these expectations, combined with their parents complaints are primary reasons why such classes are not offered more.
And you know this how? See, I taught for nearly a decade, and I don't know this. I have heard this, but I have seen something else.
Teachers that try to are forced to "dumb down" the class.
And you know THIS how?
Yes, teachers and resources matter, but your explanation of why black kids perform better in majority white schools ignores the variable that, by definition, most greatly and objectively differs between those schools and majority black schools, namely who the majority of a students classmates are.
White kids make better classmates for black kids?
Classroom culture matters, culture is a byproduct or people, and the people that most define a classroom are the students and their parents who far outnumber the teachers and administrators.
Tell me about this culture.
Perhaps the observed effects of integration are that the black kids are helped by sitting next to other students more willing and able to meet the expectations of a rigorous class,
Because white kids are better suited encourage and help black kids than other black kids are?
and whose parents more likely to help push those classmates to meet those expectations.
Because black parents don't have expectations of their children?
 
You used the word "rigorous", so which did you mean? The standard meaning of "rigorous class" is one that is very difficult and challenging to the students,
another definition is

extremely thorough, exhaustive, or accurate

Word meanings are context dependent, and in this case it is "rigourous" in the context of "class" and in the larger context of how well students perform in class. Thus, your provided definition in the context of your own argument implies a classroom in which students must show thorough, exhaustive, or accurate understanding of the material. IOW, nearly identical my provided definition which is most people use the phrase.

requires a great deal of work and effort on their part, and where good grades require clear demonstration that the material was mastered.
Inability or refusal of students to meet these expectations, combined with their parents complaints are primary reasons why such classes are not offered more.
And you know this how? See, I taught for nearly a decade, and I don't know this. I have heard this, but I have seen something else.

I have taught for 2 decades, my wife for 3 and most of my closest friends teach as well. I also conduct research on education in classrooms and am well versed in that literature.

Teachers that try to are forced to "dumb down" the class.
And you know THIS how?
See above.

Yes, teachers and resources matter, but your explanation of why black kids perform better in majority white schools ignores the variable that, by definition, most greatly and objectively differs between those schools and majority black schools, namely who the majority of a students classmates are.
White kids make better classmates for black kids?

Better students with fewer behavioral problems make better classmates for all kids. The data you cite shows that putting the black kids in classrooms where most other students are mostly white instead of mostly black led to significant improvements in those black kids learning.
You went to lengths to look for other variables that you don't know actually varied between the classes and completely ignored the potential impact of the variable that we know for certain differed, who the other students were. Given that race is confounded with many other student characteristics like SES, it probably is not race itself but other student characteristics related to race via other factors.

Classroom culture matters, culture is a byproduct or people, and the people that most define a classroom are the students and their parents who far outnumber the teachers and administrators.
Tell me about this culture.

IF you don't grasp that there is a culture in each classrooms that impacts student and teacher behavior, then you were not a very attentive teacher and no nothing of human behavior and social influence. Kids greatly impact each other in setting expectations for intellectual effort and disruptive behaviors, and parents heavily influence their kids in these ways, who then go to class and determine the overall tone of the classroom, which impacts the other kids.

Perhaps the observed effects of integration are that the black kids are helped by sitting next to other students more willing and able to meet the expectations of a rigorous class,
Because white kids are better suited encourage and help black kids than other black kids are?
and whose parents more likely to help push those classmates to meet those expectations.
Because black parents don't have expectations of their children?

Try a minute of rational thinking not blinded by dogma. You began the thread by acknowledging that students in white schools do better at school. Past performance impacts expectations. Kids that do better, set higher expectations for how they should do, as do their parents. Take a black kid and move him into a context where the students around him have been doing better and you'll have a social context of higher expectations and more peer examples of how to do well.
 
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