The secular meaning of life

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Humanity is not so bright. So to think how that group will find meaning and purpose is a depressing thought. Having a religious purpose seems to have the effect of destroying all those things good in the name of glorifying the individual.

I didn't understand this? I thought that, religion, if anything is about glorifying the group? Christianity isn't about glorifying Jesus. Even if the guy actually existed, he's long dead now. He's just a symbol to keep the group together.

You could not be more wrong. Think about it. Heaven is an individual reward, the ultimate hedonism, the perfect reward, not something to be missed or denied, perhaps the most selfish expression of human desires ever invented. Every potential entrant is judged based upon their behavior. Group identity is only a means to an end. We're all sinners but we're not all saved so we've got to figure out exactly what the spaceman wants. If our fave preacher isn't delivering we go elsewhere. We read and ruminate on those scriptural passages to find the mysteries revealed so that we can enter the ultimate paradise. This little earthly life is only a means to an end.

Dude, you've been away from the pews too long.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Humanity is not so bright. So to think how that group will find meaning and purpose is a depressing thought. Having a religious purpose seems to have the effect of destroying all those things good in the name of glorifying the individual.

I didn't understand this? I thought that, religion, if anything is about glorifying the group? Christianity isn't about glorifying Jesus. Even if the guy actually existed, he's long dead now. He's just a symbol to keep the group together.

You could not be more wrong. Think about it. Heaven is an individual reward, the ultimate hedonism, the perfect reward, not something to be missed or denied, perhaps the most selfish expression of human desires ever invented. Every potential entrant is judged based upon their behavior. Group identity is only a means to an end. We're all sinners but we're not all saved so we've got to figure out exactly what the spaceman wants. If our fave preacher isn't delivering we go elsewhere. We read and ruminate on those scriptural passages to find the mysteries revealed so that we can enter the ultimate paradise.

Dude, you've been away from the pews too long.

I was raised in Sweden. I mer my first theist as an adult. Religion is dead in Sweden

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Then maybe humanity could find meaning that doesn't include the destruction that's been its legacy.

It seems that's what we're trying to do except for a few very deranged individuals...
EB

There are certainly notable humans making attempts to live with the natural world or which they are part. I am a member of the Sierra Club, for example, those left wing mofos who always seem to spring up to oppose mining and drilling, pipelines and development in pristine areas. Yes, I do everything to minimize my carbon footprint but for the most part I'm losing the battles and the war. We're really killing out mother, our home, doing it as a group, and I'm as guilty as the next person, though perhaps to some lesser extent.

The problem is we've occupied and industrialized the entire planet, the human flood plains are all occupied and being consumed.

Do some people still care? Certainly. Are there enough? Not nearly.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

You could not be more wrong. Think about it. Heaven is an individual reward, the ultimate hedonism, the perfect reward, not something to be missed or denied, perhaps the most selfish expression of human desires ever invented. Every potential entrant is judged based upon their behavior. Group identity is only a means to an end. We're all sinners but we're not all saved so we've got to figure out exactly what the spaceman wants. If our fave preacher isn't delivering we go elsewhere. We read and ruminate on those scriptural passages to find the mysteries revealed so that we can enter the ultimate paradise.

Dude, you've been away from the pews too long.

I was raised in Sweden. I mer my first theist as an adult. Religion is dead in Sweden

That is good to know. Thank-you. You give me hope. I consider myself a Swede.

 

[PyramidHead]

To derive meaning from life, at least if we're talking about emotional fulfillment, necessarily involves disrespecting others who are in the same position. This is part of life's central dilemma, and the reason why Nietzsche was correct that saying "yes" to life means discarding or suspending morality. He pursued this idea to the conclusion that we must affirm life, and so much for morality if it doesn't let us do that. He did not consider the more obvious conclusion: we must be moral, and so much for life if it doesn't let us do that. Somehow, even though morality carries with it a natural motivating force, it is always relegated to a secondary level and made subservient to the life-impulse, itself never subjected to scrutiny, moral or otherwise.

 

[fromderinside]

I disagree. I watch many swedish mysteries and dramas on MHZ. Religion is a significant factor in about half of the episodes. Episodes such as The Bridge, Beck, The Inspector and the Sea, Irene Huss, Unni Lindell and Lackburgs Murders were filmed after 2013.

So provide evidence other than personal testimony, perhaps out of one's fart hole, perhaps not, that religion is dead in Sweden. As I understand it Sweden is a bit more than Stockholm and Malmo that city on the other side of the bridge from Denmark.

Besides It's my impression that Sweden is anything but the humanist bastion of northern Europe.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Humanity is not so bright. So to think how that group will find meaning and purpose is a depressing thought. Having a religious purpose seems to have the effect of destroying all those things good in the name of glorifying the individual.

I didn't understand this? I thought that, religion, if anything is about glorifying the group? Christianity isn't about glorifying Jesus. Even if the guy actually existed, he's long dead now. He's just a symbol to keep the group together.

You could not be more wrong. Think about it. Heaven is an individual reward, the ultimate hedonism, the perfect reward, not something to be missed or denied, perhaps the most selfish expression of human desires ever invented. Every potential entrant is judged based upon their behavior. Group identity is only a means to an end. We're all sinners but we're not all saved so we've got to figure out exactly what the spaceman wants. If our fave preacher isn't delivering we go elsewhere. We read and ruminate on those scriptural passages to find the mysteries revealed so that we can enter the ultimate paradise. This little earthly life is only a means to an end.

Dude, you've been away from the pews too long.

I don't see how the Christian's promise to enter Heaven on condition of being morally worthy of itis could amount to "glorifying the individual". Rather the reverse on the face of it. If you want to enter Heaven, you're asked to forget about living a selfish life and become instead an active member of the human community. It's clearly giving precedence to the group.

That's not specific to religion, of course. The state requires each citizen to give precedence to the country. Each individual employee has to submit to the objectives of the business if the business is to survive. Associations obviously do it, too.

It's only recently that commercial interests are systematically promoting a culture of "glorifying the individual", playing on the delusion often young people will have that they, too, can live magical lives like movie stars and footballers. Nothing to do with religion.
EB

 

[steve_bank]

Humanity is not so bright. So to think how that group will find meaning and purpose is a depressing thought. Having a religious purpose seems to have the effect of destroying all those things good in the name of glorifying the individual.

Humanity does not currently possess what it takes to understand enlightened naturalism. We're just about consuming and reproducing because that's been the selection process literally forever. Humanity does not even understand natural selection and evolution which is the key to understanding all our current problems - and opportunities.

I'm selfish too in that I wish to possess as much knowledge as I can. I think that's the key to purpose and meaning and having a future worth living. But I don't want to do it at the expense of destroying all that gives life meaning and purpose.

Perhaps humanity should strive to control its emotional nature. Maybe that's the best secular purpose out there. Then maybe humanity could find meaning that doesn't include the destruction that's been its legacy.

So humans ain't so bright and tend to be self destructive. Do what humans have done through history, eat, drink, enjoy as best you can?

 

[rousseau]

Humanity does not currently possess what it takes to understand enlightened naturalism. We're just about consuming and reproducing because that's been the selection process literally forever. Humanity does not even understand natural selection and evolution which is the key to understanding all our current problems - and opportunities.

You're talking the same humanity that throws their beer in the air when a random number generator puts a point on the board for their arbitrary political territory?

It's always been this way. Philosophies and goals are ideals to strive toward, not universally attainable. There are always going to be people who are incapable of seeing the world for what it is, but that doesn't mean it can't be a real ideal to strive toward. Some will get it, some won't.

Universally, human condition type stuff, I'd argue there can really only be sub-goals that individual people find uniquely meaningful.

 

[rousseau]

So maybe what you called "the world" here just is whatever it is we seem to understand. In this case, no need to assume knowledge. Some hallucinations may give you the certainty that you understand how the world works.

What about tangible evidence that your understanding leads to consistent, positive outcomes and a more enjoyable, flourishing life?

Sorry, I don't see the relevance of that to what I said.
EB

It was less related to what you said, and more of an aside. What I was getting at is that the experience of the 'man on the street' vs the 'philosopher' is very different. Most people aren't spending their days contemplating meaning, they're just living, and so questions of meaning hold no relevance to them, making this thread moot.

 

[Speakpigeon]

So maybe what you called "the world" here just is whatever it is we seem to understand. In this case, no need to assume knowledge. Some hallucinations may give you the certainty that you understand how the world works.

What about tangible evidence that your understanding leads to consistent, positive outcomes and a more enjoyable, flourishing life?

Hallucinations.

Hallucinations look just like tangible evidence. And you just can't ignore them.

I'm not sure how "positive outcomes and a more enjoyable, flourishing life" is necessary for understanding the world. But anyway, hallucinations can make your life looks enjoyable and flourishing.
EB

 

[fromderinside]

Is anything changed in your chant if you exchange hat for hallucination? On the other hand if something consistent results from doing things a certain way don't we at least have verifiable evidence of that. Just trying to separate phenomenon from verifiable instance. Actually I'm trying to put your hallucination in a cocked hat.

 

[Lion IRC]

Secular = atheistic = life is short then you die.
Yeah. Really 'meaningful'

 

[PyramidHead]

Secular = atheistic = life is short then you die.
Yeah. Really 'meaningful'

To be fair, atheists don't claim that life has cosmic meaning, or even meaning that survives past our fixation on it, but terrestrial meaning is not a bad consolation prize.

 

[rousseau]

Secular = atheistic = life is short then you die.
Yeah. Really 'meaningful'

To be fair, atheists don't claim that life has cosmic meaning, or even meaning that survives past our fixation on it, but terrestrial meaning is not a bad consolation prize.

These arguments that 'religion provides more meaning than secularism' are also stale and nauseating.

Spending your entire life in delusion is not a meaningful way to live your life. It might feel good, but it's a placebo and doesn't strike me as something one would want to strive toward.

 

[steve_bank]

Secular = atheistic = life is short then you die.
Yeah. Really 'meaningful'

You like many Christians derive meaning and a sense of personal power and glory by denigrating others in the name of a god, to us imaginary. You see yourself as a personal emissary of a god empowered to bring us all to Jesus. Historically not a new tale, my god is better and more powerful than yours, lets fight it out.


Evangelicals seem to get a boost emotionally by speaking Biblical names loudly and using Old English translations, thee and thou. Reciting scripture loudly in Old English seems to have some special effect, religious theater. Evangelicals seem to think they are biblical prophets reborn, more of he illusion of power and empowerment.

Several times Christians I have known without warning reared up with fire and brimstone thinking it would somehow convert me. More of the delusion of supernatural power.

I do have an imaginary friend, a cat. My imaginary cat doesn't have to be fed, no cat litter, doesn't scratch, and comes when I call. I call him Spot. He walks beside me through thick and thin, he is my salvation.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Is anything changed in your chant if you exchange hat for hallucination? On the other hand if something consistent results from doing things a certain way don't we at least have verifiable evidence of that. Just trying to separate phenomenon from verifiable instance. Actually I'm trying to put your hallucination in a cocked hat.

Are you suggesting we could prove that it's not possible to have hallucinations that remain consistent?

Me, I think the human mind is just that. Hallucinations that happens to work. That would work, obviously. Perfectly logical.

I'm no expert on Lewis Carroll's memorabilia but I suspect he must has slipped something about that in Alice. Look at "hatter". "Mad hatter", I think.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Secular = atheistic = life is short then you die.
Yeah. Really 'meaningful'

Religious = life is short = you believe in life after death = then you die.
Yeah. Really "meaningful".
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Secular = atheistic = life is short then you die.
Yeah. Really 'meaningful'

To be fair, atheists don't claim that life has cosmic meaning, or even meaning that survives past our fixation on it, but terrestrial meaning is not a bad consolation prize.

Well, David Deutsch's book "The beginning of infinity" may be regarded as suggesting a non-religious cosmic meaning to life. We may be on the road to infinity. Potentially boundless possibilities. Understanding without limit. Life itself without limit. We probably can't really understand the idea very well right now, but we may be on our way to understand it!
EB

 

[PyramidHead]

Secular = atheistic = life is short then you die.
Yeah. Really 'meaningful'

To be fair, atheists don't claim that life has cosmic meaning, or even meaning that survives past our fixation on it, but terrestrial meaning is not a bad consolation prize.

Well, David Deutsch's book "The beginning of infinity" may be regarded as suggesting a non-religious cosmic meaning to life. We may be on the road to infinity. Potentially boundless possibilities. Understanding without limit. Life itself without limit. We probably can't really understand the idea very well right now, but we may be on our way to understand it!
EB

I haven't read his book, but I would suggest that there is nothing inherently, objectively meaningful about infinity, or anything else for that matter. It may be nice to have unlimited understanding if there is someday the means to achieve it, but I maintain such an outcome would be a man-made pursuit of meaning.

Some scientists say similar things about the survival of our species, as if it imbues us with a solid basis for our lives that is more fundamental than emotional. But this too is mistaken. Just because something has been happening for a long time doesn't mean it needs to keep happening, and just because something is very big doesn't mean it's worth working towards.

By the same token, all of this would still be true even if there was a God. Being maximally powerful and intelligent does not grant God the ability to dictate the meaning of everyone else's life. We would all still be free to invent and follow our own values, and they would be no less meaningful than God's values.