The Skeptic Challenge

[One]

Hi, there. Here's hoping that this thread is in the right section:

As many here already know, my field of study is belief and its nature, which has occupied me for a good fifteen years now. This has also involved an in-depth study of seven major religious and secular fields (Atheism/Secularism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnosticism, Paganism, & Shamanism). As I finish up my woo-woo studies for the summer, I would like to see if members here are interested in helping me cap off a segment of my research with one last Skeptic Challenge.

This thread is a continuation of an experiment I started years ago. At the time, IIDB was my launching pad to test the debated theory of "cold reading." I offered to read tarot for participants using The Goddess Tarot after being trained with this deck by a Celtic Druidess. The response was large, the results intriguing. I have since conducted this same experiment over the years on various other venues. The purpose has been to study the reactions to "cold reading" in secular environments vs. nonsecular environments.

All handles and names are confidential.

In thread or via PM: I will give a standard four card reading (past, present, future, summation) and answer up to three questions per person.
In exchange, I require an answer to three questions:

1) Your secular title (agnostic, atheist, humanist, etc) and how long you have been a part of the secular community.
2) Was the reading accurate or inaccurate? How so?
3) Describe your general thoughts/attitude about tarot and tarot readers.

Any takers?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Taker.
Questions elsewhere.

1) Your secular title (agnostic, atheist, humanist, etc) and how long you have been a part of the secular community.

I call myself an atheist. Probably have been for about 30 years, now.

2) Was the reading accurate or inaccurate? How so?

3) Describe your general thoughts/attitude about tarot and tarot readers.

I left the Church seeking actual answers and experimented a lot of ways with a lot of stuff. To me, tarot seems like an aid for meditation. The symbology guides one's thoughts, helps give shape to our feelings, allows us to see (or project) a pattern onto something.. What the something is seems to depend on the caster and the querent.

 

[ApostateAbe]

I am willing. I am an infotheist, meaning I believe the gods exist most relevantly as information. It is a lot like an atheist, and I have been that way for 13 years. I believe that tarot reading is BS, but I have not yet decided if tarot card readers generally believe in it or if they generally know it is BS.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am willing. I am an infotheist, meaning I believe the gods exist most relevantly as information. It is a lot like an atheist, and I have been that way for 13 years. I believe that tarot reading is BS, but I have not yet decided if tarot card readers generally believe in it or if they generally know it is BS.

I think to a large degree it's a matter of the tarot cards providing a focus for the hints they pick up. Usually there is also feedback from talking to the person as they go.

Whether this is self delusion or lying I do not know.

I might as well do it also. Lifelong atheist.

 

[One]

Taker.
Questions elsewhere.

Questions answered. Thank you for your participation.
I have two more questions, which you can post here or via PM:

1) Prior to your 30 years of atheism, what religion were you?

2) Was the reading accurate or inaccurate? How so?


Thanks again!

 

[One]

I am willing. I am an infotheist, meaning I believe the gods exist most relevantly as information. It is a lot like an atheist, and I have been that way for 13 years. I believe that tarot reading is BS, but I have not yet decided if tarot card readers generally believe in it or if they generally know it is BS.

Hello there. Your reading is as follows:

As I shuffled the deck, the six of swords (reversed) and the three of swords fell out. This implies an anniversary/event that you have not gotten over, a situation that has caused a deep blow to the heart that remains with you.

Past: The Chariot, reversed
Present: Justice
Future: Two of Cups
Overall: Judgement

Meaning: Your recent past involves you feeling thwarted in your attempts to move forward in life. This also involves a family issue that has gone unresolved for some time. Justice in your present means that a legal or other tension-filled issue will be handled properly. This will take a lot of the frustration off your shoulders, which is good since the Two of Cups implies a close relationship that will soon have your full attention if it has not already. This person is also your partner.

An additional card to clarify the Judgement card:

There is a note of caution here with (five of swords reversed).

You have a tendency to be either dishonest or withhold information from close loved ones. This will be to your immediate detriment if you choose to be anything other than honest in the next week (Judgement). Justice is at play in your life, Athena is your avenger. So while you are watching other people and issues that have wronged you set to rights, just make sure your slate is clean.

You can ask up to three questions beyond this general reading.

Aside from this, I have three questions of my own for you:

1) Prior to your 13 years of atheism, what religion were you?
2) Was the reading accurate or inaccurate? How so?
3) Does it matter whether the tarot reader believes in the tarot or not when working with the cards?

Thank you for your participation.

 

[One]

I think to a large degree it's a matter of the tarot cards providing a focus for the hints they pick up. Usually there is also feedback from talking to the person as they go.

Whether this is self delusion or lying I do not know.

I might as well do it also. Lifelong atheist.

Your reading is as follows:

The card that came up before the reading began is the Ace of Cups. This implies that matters of the heart are the main focus in your life at this time.

Past: Love, reversed
Present: King of Cups, reversed
Future: The Star
Overall: Ace of Swords

Meaning: Your recent past involved a situation that impacted your romantic life. This situation is also your fault, a side-effect of your silences. The King of Cups reversed states that you are avoiding emotional issues in the hopes that they will calm down on their own. The Star means that you have to actually go against this conventional wisdom and stop using various methods of escapism. You simply have to speak your peace. The other party is not a mind reader and will only "hear" you once you speak up.

The Ace of Swords means that this situation is there as a learning experience. In the aftermath, you will find a fresh aspect of your relationship and a greater understanding of yourself and others.

You can ask up to three additional questions here or via PM.
My own questions:

1) As a lifelong atheist, is there any religion or tradition that you hold in high regard or respect?
2) Was the reading accurate or inaccurate? How so?

Thanks so much for your participation.

 

[One]

Thank you to those that have contacted me via PM.
I am responding in the order of notification. So if you have not heard from me yet, it is because there are others ahead of you.

This is a great help towards my final paper, so I really appreciate it.

 

[ApostateAbe]

I am willing. I am an infotheist, meaning I believe the gods exist most relevantly as information. It is a lot like an atheist, and I have been that way for 13 years. I believe that tarot reading is BS, but I have not yet decided if tarot card readers generally believe in it or if they generally know it is BS.

Hello there. Your reading is as follows:

As I shuffled the deck, the six of swords (reversed) and the three of swords fell out. This implies an anniversary/event that you have not gotten over, a situation that has caused a deep blow to the heart that remains with you.

Past: The Chariot, reversed
Present: Justice
Future: Two of Cups
Overall: Judgement

Meaning: Your recent past involves you feeling thwarted in your attempts to move forward in life. This also involves a family issue that has gone unresolved for some time. Justice in your present means that a legal or other tension-filled issue will be handled properly. This will take a lot of the frustration off your shoulders, which is good since the Two of Cups implies a close relationship that will soon have your full attention if it has not already. This person is also your partner.

An additional card to clarify the Judgement card:

There is a note of caution here with (five of swords reversed).

You have a tendency to be either dishonest or withhold information from close loved ones. This will be to your immediate detriment if you choose to be anything other than honest in the next week (Judgement). Justice is at play in your life, Athena is your avenger. So while you are watching other people and issues that have wronged you set to rights, just make sure your slate is clean.

You can ask up to three questions beyond this general reading.

Aside from this, I have three questions of my own for you:

1) Prior to your 13 years of atheism, what religion were you?
2) Was the reading accurate or inaccurate? How so?
3) Does it matter whether the tarot reader believes in the tarot or not when working with the cards?

Thank you for your participation.

1) I was a protestant conservative Christian until the age of 18.
2) "Your recent past involves you feeling thwarted..." Yes, I think that is accurate. "You have a tendency to be either dishonest or withhold information from close loved ones." No, the reading does not seem to be accurate. I do not have a tendency to be dishonest or to withhold information from loved ones. I reveal too much to them. And I do not have a "partner."
3) If the tarot card reader does not believe in the reading, then it is explicitly silly, so yeah.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Meaning: Your recent past involved a situation that impacted your romantic life. This situation is also your fault, a side-effect of your silences. The King of Cups reversed states that you are avoiding emotional issues in the hopes that they will calm down on their own. The Star means that you have to actually go against this conventional wisdom and stop using various methods of escapism. You simply have to speak your peace. The other party is not a mind reader and will only "hear" you once you speak up.

The Ace of Swords means that this situation is there as a learning experience. In the aftermath, you will find a fresh aspect of your relationship and a greater understanding of yourself and others.

I'm married more than a quarter century and there hasn't really been a change in our relationship in a long time. I would score this as a total miss.

1) As a lifelong atheist, is there any religion or tradition that you hold in high regard or respect?

No, although I do see Buddhism more as focused on being a good person rather than following the dictates of a deity. It has of course been subverted by it's "holy" men but not to the degree of many religions.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

H
In thread or via PM: I will give a standard four card reading (past, present, future, summation) and answer up to three questions per person.
In exchange, I require an answer to three questions:

1) Your secular title (agnostic, atheist, humanist, etc) and how long you have been a part of the secular community.
2) Was the reading accurate or inaccurate? How so?
3) Describe your general thoughts/attitude about tarot and tarot readers.

1) I am an atheist and have been part of the secular community since about 2000
2) I'll let you know
3) I think it's garbage but don't think the practitioners are deliberately lying but instead that they've bought into their own bullshit

My three questions:

1) When will I get married?
2) How many children will I have?
3) How much longer will my parents live for?

If those aren't the kinds of questions you can answer, please give me an example of the sorts of things you can.

 

[PyramidHead]

I'll participate. It sounds like it could be fun at least. For questions 1 and 3:

1. I have been an atheist since about 2002. I do not consider myself a humanist anymore, and the label that most accurately describes my worldview is pessimist.

3. I like the mythical aspect of the tarot cards, but I do not believe they convey any actual information. As others have said, this kind of stuff doesn't need to be true in order to make you reflect on your life in a different way, which is usually good. The experiences described by tarot cards are common enough that drawing attention to particular ones can be instructive. I think it works for some people because there is pleasure in being analyzed, as it implies that they are interesting and their lives form a narrative that makes sense.

My 3 questions:

1. Will my health problems ever be resolved?
2. Should I pursue a career in the creative arts?
3. Will I outlive my wife?

 

[jab]

Hi, there. Here's hoping that this thread is in the right section:

As many here already know, my field of study is belief and its nature, which has occupied me for a good fifteen years now. This has also involved an in-depth study of seven major religious and secular fields (Atheism/Secularism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnosticism, Paganism, & Shamanism). As I finish up my woo-woo studies for the summer, I would like to see if members here are interested in helping me cap off a segment of my research with one last Skeptic Challenge.

This thread is a continuation of an experiment I started years ago. At the time, IIDB was my launching pad to test the debated theory of "cold reading." I offered to read tarot for participants using The Goddess Tarot after being trained with this deck by a Celtic Druidess. The response was large, the results intriguing. I have since conducted this same experiment over the years on various other venues. The purpose has been to study the reactions to "cold reading" in secular environments vs. nonsecular environments.

All handles and names are confidential.

In thread or via PM: I will give a standard four card reading (past, present, future, summation) and answer up to three questions per person.
In exchange, I require an answer to three questions:

1) Your secular title (agnostic, atheist, humanist, etc) and how long you have been a part of the secular community.
2) Was the reading accurate or inaccurate? How so?
3) Describe your general thoughts/attitude about tarot and tarot readers.

Any takers?

Nah, not me: I'm too skeptical to do this with someone operating under a psuedonym, online, for motives that remain, ahem, obscure.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I'll go for it.

 

[One]

1) I was a protestant conservative Christian until the age of 18.
2) "Your recent past involves you feeling thwarted..." Yes, I think that is accurate. "You have a tendency to be either dishonest or withhold information from close loved ones." No, the reading does not seem to be accurate. I do not have a tendency to be dishonest or to withhold information from loved ones. I reveal too much to them. And I do not have a "partner."
3) If the tarot card reader does not believe in the reading, then it is explicitly silly, so yeah.

Thank you very much for your feedback. It was very useful.

 

[One]

I'm married more than a quarter century and there hasn't really been a change in our relationship in a long time. I would score this as a total miss.

1) As a lifelong atheist, is there any religion or tradition that you hold in high regard or respect?

No, although I do see Buddhism more as focused on being a good person rather than following the dictates of a deity. It has of course been subverted by it's "holy" men but not to the degree of many religions.

Thank you, Loren. Your feedback has been very helpful.
I would be interested in speaking with you more about your views on Buddhism in another thread. I am very curious about this comment.

 

[One]

Nah, not me: I'm too skeptical to do this with someone operating under a psuedonym, online, for motives that remain, ahem, obscure.

As you wish. I remain unoffended.
But I will expand on a few points: For one, I am a member of IIDB - the original board from way back. I have been active in the secular community for over a decade and known by many members in real life, having met at secular meetups here in NYC, New England & Georgia. I have also had the pleasure of hosting various international members from this community on occasion when they visit NYC over the years. So my motives are quite transparent.
But I understand and remain unoffended.

So I will tell you what this is about:

Those contacting me offboard and via PM kept me busy enough that I managed to reconfirm previous findings on cold reading since I started these challenges back in 2005:

A person being given a cold reading, regardless of worldview, will retain their original beliefs regarding the practice the majority of the time.
The exceptions to this rule in my experience are persons that have undergone recent trauma of some sort. A recent death, for example, will make a person more likely to believe a cold reading than they otherwise would. Same thing with a sudden medical diagnosis, loss of a job, etc. The only constant is that the trauma has to be pervasive enough to cause the person to doubt their usual methodology in dealing with external events.

A person asking questions of a tarot reader, oth, is more likely to alter their belief/opinion about the practice - even if the initial reading was totally off.
But the tarot reader must accomplish three feats:

He/She must be able to tell the adherent one detail they could not have otherwise known, no matter how small.
He/She must be able to tell the adherent a course of action - no matter how illogical.
He/She must be able to tell the adherent something that will take place shortly after the reading, no matter how general.

A secular adherent is not guaranteed to outright dismiss tarot as a methodology. Those adhering to the psi, psychic, ESP, intuitive, & extra-sensory spectrum of belief structures can be either theistic or non-theistic. A belief in God is not required to sustain a belief in enhanced human mental abilities of this sort.

This group of belief structures has a high correlation with adherents that also believe in extraterrestrial life, support the use of psychedelic drugs to attain higher states of awareness, and/or maintain belief in religions such as Christianity, esoteric Paganism, VooDun/Voodoo, Santeria, Satanism, Mysticism, Mystical Judaism or Mystical Islam, Occultism, indigenous Paganism, and/or sects of Catholicism that actively practice rites of exorcism or believe in possession. Protestants are more effective in discouraging belief and use of tarot, which they associate with occultism and witchcraft.

Adherents deconverting from a belief structures in which tarot is an integral part are more likely to establish roots in Eastern religions in the aftermath.
It is more rare for adherents to become hard atheists or seriously devout fundamentalists unless they were also involved with darker aspects of occultism.
Adherents with a previous upbringing in fundamentalist Christianity are more likely to suffer from mental disturbances while studying tarot.

This is a bit of what I study. And I do so because I want to understand the nature of belief, namely how it is formed, constructed and dismantled within the human psyche.

 

[dx713]

Not eager, but can do.
Let me know (PM so I can have a mail notification) if you still need some guinea pigs.